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Rapid insulin

vicky1974

Active Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Pronouns
She/Her
Hi everyone

Recent type 1 diagnosis and I was told to take Novorapid 3 times a day with meals. Currently 10 units each time but slowly getting to grips with carb counting.

Hoping someone may be able to help

If you don’t really eat lunch (say fruit or a yoghurt) do you still need to take it to get it in your system, even if sugars are in range?

Also, if your sugar is low ie 3.5 is it safe to take it before dinner?

Finally, I’ve been counting carbs and advised to start a ratio of 1:10 but this isn’t working. Say 30g carbs and 3 units but sugars going up to around 14? Is 2:10 ok for some people.

I’m finding all this combined means my sugar are either really high or much to low and I want to get them steady

Thanks in advance
 
If you don’t really eat lunch (say fruit or a yoghurt) do you still need to take it to get it in your system, even if sugars are in range?
A simple way to look at the purpose of fast acting insulin is to “mop up” the carbs you eat. If you do not eat anything (and your BG is in range), you do not need fast acting insulin.
Also, if your sugar is low ie 3.5 is it safe to take it before dinner?
If your BG is below 4, you are hypo and need fast acting carbs to return your BG in range before taking fast acting insulin. Once, you have recovered from your hypo, your dose would be the same as usual.

Finally, I’ve been counting carbs and advised to start a ratio of 1:10 but this isn’t working. Say 30g carbs and 3 units but sugars going up to around 14? Is 2:10 ok for some people.
1:10 is the usual starting point for insulin to carb ratios but we are all different. There is no “one size fits all” so we each needs to work out what our personal ratio is. And it may vary for different times of the day.
It is important to remember that fast acting insulin is not that fast - it remain active for at least 4 hours. Therefore, it is best to consider your BG after 4 hours. You mention your BG gets as high as 14 but does it return to range within 4 hours? If it comes back down, the problem is more likely to be timing - in an ideal world you are trying to match the peak

of insulin activity with the peak of carb digestion/absorption. Therefore, you may need to take your fast acting early. The advice is to start with a common meal such a breakfast and move your injection time earlier by 5 minutes each day until your spike is reduced. However, the challenge is that different foods are digested at different rates. For example, fat will reduce absorption rates. So, do not aim for perfection and err of the side of caution - a spike is better than a hypo.
Finally, working out insulin to carb ratios need a stable “base”. If your basal dose is incorrect, you will be using basal with carbs if your basal dose is too high or topping up your basal with fast acting if your basal is too low.

I’m finding all this combined means my sugar are either really high or much to low and I want to get them steady
Do not expect your BG to remain “steady”. People without diabetes have fluctuations in their BG including spikes when they eat. You are looking to be in range within 4 hours of fast acting insulin with no/few hypos in between.
Therefore advice is no perfection with managing diabetes and attempting to achieve it will cause burn out … and diabetes controlling your life.
 
Going to start with your questions from the bottom up if you don't mind....

Finally, I’ve been counting carbs and advised to start a ratio of 1:10 but this isn’t working. Say 30g carbs and 3 units but sugars going up to around 14? Is 2:10 ok for some people."
Novo(not so 🙄)Rapid works over 4-5 hours, so you are looking for it to bring you back down into range by your next meal. As long as it does that, the dose was correct so your 1:10 ratio is right. How high it spikes in between is usually down to timing.... ie how long you wait after injecting before eating otherwise known as the prebolus time. This varies from one person to another and at different times of day and with different insulins. Typically they suggest injecting 10 of maybe 20 mins before eating but that is just a general guideline. If you have a fast digestion and/or a slow response to the insulin, then you will need longer. If you have slow digestion or fast absorption of insulin then you will need less. How much more or less is down to careful experimentation.

For example when I was first diagnosed I spiked up to mid teens every morning with 20 mins prebolus timing but came back down into range before lunch, so the dose was right but the timing wrong. I gradually increased it by 5mins each day keeping my breakfast the same until I found a timing where it stopped the spike but didn't cause me to hypo. For me with Novo(not-so)Rapid, I needed about 75 mins between injecting and eating my breakfast. Obviously this is impractical and a few times I got distracted and left the house without having breakfast only to find myself having a massive hypo not long after. I ended up changing to Fiasp which is faster but I still need 30-45 mins prebolus at breakfast and I usually inject before I get out of bed because I have a very strong Foot on the Floor liver response(like Dawn Phenomenon) which will take me into double figures if I don't jab insulin before I swing my legs out of bed. Many other people would hypo waiting so long, so it is important to increase the timing gradually to see what works for you. I only needed 20-30 mins at other times of day with NR and just 10-20 mins with Fiasp. Breakfast tends to be the longest prebolus timing for most people.

What I am saying is that your 1:10 ratio might be fine but you are just not giving it enough of a head start. If however, the 1:10 doesn't bring you back into range 4 hours later, then you need to think about adjusting the ratio, but small adjustments are best and always err on the side of caution with insulin.

"Also, if your sugar is low ie 3.5 is it safe to take it before dinner?"
If it is confirmed low with a finger prick, then it is important to treat the hypo (with fast acting carbs) and wait until you are confirmed above 4.before you inject your insulin. At low BG levels you can become more sensitive to insulin which means that it can kick in much quicker than it normally does, so injecting when you are already hypo is potentially dangerous.

"If you don’t really eat lunch (say fruit or a yoghurt) do you still need to take it to get it in your system, even if sugars are in range?"

If you are only having a light lunch then it is much more important to carb count and only inject as much as you need. An apple or a yoghurt might only be 10-20g carbs so if you are in range and you inject 10 units with a 1:10 ratio, then you are almost certainly going to end up hypo. Fixed doses of insulin are supposed to be accompanied by roughly similar sized meals in terms of carbs, so if you were to have an omelette which has almost no carbs, then you would not inject for it. Similarly, if you were going to skip lunch, you would not inject. Unfortunately nurses rarely seem to advise people about roughly how many carbs they should aim for when they give people fixed doses, but if they have suggested 1:10 and to inject 10units, then they are expecting you to eat about 100g carbs per meal..... which seems like quite a lot to me. I think I was started on 4units per meal, but perhaps they have done a rough body weight calculation which suggests 30 units a day would be about right.


Hopefully that answers your questions but if you don't understand anything just ask.
 
A simple way to look at the purpose of fast acting insulin is to “mop up” the carbs you eat. If you do not eat anything (and your BG is in range), you do not need fast acting insulin.

If your BG is below 4, you are hypo and need fast acting carbs to return your BG in range before taking fast acting insulin. Once, you have recovered from your hypo, your dose would be the same as usual.


1:10 is the usual starting point for insulin to carb ratios but we are all different. There is no “one size fits all” so we each needs to work out what our personal ratio is. And it may vary for different times of the day.
It is important to remember that fast acting insulin is not that fast - it remain active for at least 4 hours. Therefore, it is best to consider your BG after 4 hours. You mention your BG gets as high as 14 but does it return to range within 4 hours? If it comes back down, the problem is more likely to be timing - in an ideal world you are trying to match the peak

of insulin activity with the peak of carb digestion/absorption. Therefore, you may need to take your fast acting early. The advice is to start with a common meal such a breakfast and move your injection time earlier by 5 minutes each day until your spike is reduced. However, the challenge is that different foods are digested at different rates. For example, fat will reduce absorption rates. So, do not aim for perfection and err of the side of caution - a spike is better than a hypo.
Finally, working out insulin to carb ratios need a stable “base”. If your basal dose is incorrect, you will be using basal with carbs if your basal dose is too high or topping up your basal with fast acting if your basal is too low.


Do not expect your BG to remain “steady”. People without diabetes have fluctuations in their BG including spikes when they eat. You are looking to be in range within 4 hours of fast acting insulin with no/few hypos in between.
Therefore advice is no perfection with managing diabetes and attempting to achieve it will cause burn out … and diabetes controlling your life.
Thank you this is all great information. I will try taking the rapid earlier and see if it makes a difference. It is starting to control my life and I need to stop getting so wound up with it all. I go from having a good day to a terrible one (with blood sugars) and then worry
 
Going to start with your questions from the bottom up if you don't mind....

Finally, I’ve been counting carbs and advised to start a ratio of 1:10 but this isn’t working. Say 30g carbs and 3 units but sugars going up to around 14? Is 2:10 ok for some people."
Novo(not so 🙄)Rapid works over 4-5 hours, so you are looking for it to bring you back down into range by your next meal. As long as it does that, the dose was correct so your 1:10 ratio is right. How high it spikes in between is usually down to timing.... ie how long you wait after injecting before eating otherwise known as the prebolus time. This varies from one person to another and at different times of day and with different insulins. Typically they suggest injecting 10 of maybe 20 mins before eating but that is just a general guideline. If you have a fast digestion and/or a slow response to the insulin, then you will need longer. If you have slow digestion or fast absorption of insulin then you will need less. How much more or less is down to careful experimentation.

For example when I was first diagnosed I spiked up to mid teens every morning with 20 mins prebolus timing but came back down into range before lunch, so the dose was right but the timing wrong. I gradually increased it by 5mins each day keeping my breakfast the same until I found a timing where it stopped the spike but didn't cause me to hypo. For me with Novo(not-so)Rapid, I needed about 75 mins between injecting and eating my breakfast. Obviously this is impractical and a few times I got distracted and left the house without having breakfast only to find myself having a massive hypo not long after. I ended up changing to Fiasp which is faster but I still need 30-45 mins prebolus at breakfast and I usually inject before I get out of bed because I have a very strong Foot on the Floor liver response(like Dawn Phenomenon) which will take me into double figures if I don't jab insulin before I swing my legs out of bed. Many other people would hypo waiting so long, so it is important to increase the timing gradually to see what works for you. I only needed 20-30 mins at other times of day with NR and just 10-20 mins with Fiasp. Breakfast tends to be the longest prebolus timing for most people.

What I am saying is that your 1:10 ratio might be fine but you are just not giving it enough of a head start. If however, the 1:10 doesn't bring you back into range 4 hours later, then you need to think about adjusting the ratio, but small adjustments are best and always err on the side of caution with insulin.

"Also, if your sugar is low ie 3.5 is it safe to take it before dinner?"
If it is confirmed low with a finger prick, then it is important to treat the hypo (with fast acting carbs) and wait until you are confirmed above 4.before you inject your insulin. At low BG levels you can become more sensitive to insulin which means that it can kick in much quicker than it normally does, so injecting when you are already hypo is potentially dangerous.

"If you don’t really eat lunch (say fruit or a yoghurt) do you still need to take it to get it in your system, even if sugars are in range?"

If you are only having a light lunch then it is much more important to carb count and only inject as much as you need. An apple or a yoghurt might only be 10-20g carbs so if you are in range and you inject 10 units with a 1:10 ratio, then you are almost certainly going to end up hypo. Fixed doses of insulin are supposed to be accompanied by roughly similar sized meals in terms of carbs, so if you were to have an omelette which has almost no carbs, then you would not inject for it. Similarly, if you were going to skip lunch, you would not inject. Unfortunately nurses rarely seem to advise people about roughly how many carbs they should aim for when they give people fixed doses, but if they have suggested 1:10 and to inject 10units, then they are expecting you to eat about 100g carbs per meal..... which seems like quite a lot to me. I think I was started on 4units per meal, but perhaps they have done a rough body weight calculation which suggests 30 units a day would be about right.


Hopefully that answers your questions but if you don't understand anything just ask.
Thank you that’s all really helpful. I felt like I had got it to start with. Take my bolus and then novorapid each meal but I’ve realised now there’s much more to it. I get the same high sugars as soon as I get up and then get stressed about getting them down all day. By afternoon they are ok though
 
Thank you that’s all really helpful. I felt like I had got it to start with. Take my bolus and then novorapid each meal but I’ve realised now there’s much more to it. I get the same high sugars as soon as I get up and then get stressed about getting them down all day. By afternoon they are ok though
The high levels on waking sound like Dawn Phenomenon which many get.
 
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