Query: Eating carbs with fat, and can we survive on fat and protein?

[Martin.A]

Too much protein will end your kidneys eventually.

Spot on. When I got my Stage 3 CKD diagnosis I researched what was bad for my kidneys and the four things that came up were high BP, high BG, too much salt and too much protein. First three not an issue for me but guilty as charged on the protein. I cut back and my last two eGFR tests have put me at Stage 2 CKD, which is considered mild and apparently isn't unusual at my age.

 

[Exflex]

Spot on. When I got my Stage 3 CKD diagnosis I researched what was bad for my kidneys and the four things that came up were high BP, high BG, too much salt and too much protein. First three not an issue for me but guilty as charged on the protein. I cut back and my last two eGFR tests have put me at Stage 2 CKD, which is considered mild and apparently isn't unusual at my age.

It’s almost like heads you lose and tail you lose. I’ve introduced a lot of protein because I thought I was doing right, eg helping to protect muscle during weight loss.

 

[snowball12]

An odd example but a high percentage of cats die from kidney failure and what do they eat?

 

[Martin.A]

It’s almost like heads you lose and tail you lose. I’ve introduced a lot of protein because I thought I was doing right, eg helping to protect muscle during weight loss.

You're not wrong. It's all about balance. It's difficult to find a consensus on how much protein we should eat. Official guidelines are 54g per day for men, 45g for women, but since our bodies need protein to function I think those are probably minimums. What I've often seen is that for someone who's inactive it should be 0.8g per kilo of body weight, 1.2g for someone moderately active and 2.2g if you're very active. I weigh 70kg and am moderately active, so I've made my target to stay under 90g.

 

[silentsquirrel]

An odd example but a high percentage of cats die from kidney failure and what do they eat?

May be linked to high use of dried food and they may not drink enough?

I have hovered between bottom end Stage 2 and top end Stage 3 for years. The only advice I have had from surgery nurse at reviews on this is to make sure I drink plenty.

 

[rebrascora]

An odd example but a high percentage of cats die from kidney failure and what do they eat?

May be linked to high use of dried food and they may not drink enough?

I have hovered between bottom end Stage 2 and top end Stage 3 for years. The only advice I have had from surgery nurse at reviews on this is to make sure I drink plenty.

Or may also be down to the carbs used in kibble causing raised BG levels resulting in kidney damage from undetected diabetes. We are seeing more and more overweight carnivore pets develop diabetes.

 

[JITR]

You're not wrong. It's all about balance. It's difficult to find a consensus on how much protein we should eat. Official guidelines are 54g per day for men, 45g for women, but since our bodies need protein to function I think those are probably minimums. What I've often seen is that for someone who's inactive it should be 0.8g per kilo of body weight, 1.2g for someone moderately active and 2.2g if you're very active. I weigh 70kg and am moderately active, so I've made my target to stay under 90g.

Yes, I found increasing protein from 0.8g/kilo to 1.0-1.2g/kilo made all the difference while I was on my real food Newcastle Diet.

 

[Inka]

I’m ok with 1 and 2, but 3 is the question I’m still getting my head around. I figure it depends how many carbs are eaten along side fats; I’m informed the body will preferentially ‘burn’ carbs, and store any excess food energy as a lipo acid, (not sure that’s correct term and what it does with excess protein?). If say one slice of bread alongside a Greek Feta cheese salad the body may well use all it’s given.

Did you read the link I posted in my first post? It’s simply not true.

 

[Inka]

I think that any diet that cuts out a major food group is dangerous. Too much protein will end your kidneys eventually.

And it’s not like most people are deficient in protein anyway. This is a quote about Americans as it’s from a U.S. author, but I bet similar holds true for us too:

“Most Americans (including vegetarians and vegans) are getting about 70 percent more protein than they need every day.“

- Michael Greger, author of How Not to Die, How Not to Get Old, etc

He says the average recommended amount works out at around 51g per day.

 

[JITR]

Did you read the link I posted in my first post? It’s simply not true.

I am not so sure, read Carbs vs Fat: Which is Better for Weight Loss? and have a look at the data.

Does anyone know of any recent scientific research into this topic and, what is more important in the long run, weight gain after weight loss?

I had not had a sweet dessert for over a year until Valentine's Day. Then the table d'hote dinner at a bistro came up with cherries in syrup and very creamy ice cream. Half way through my gut objected and my wife finished it. A couple of hours later my brain came up with an unbearable craving for more. Never had a feeling like that before. After running over what I might eat, I remembered the nutrionist Ian Marber's advice. I brushed my teeth with minty toothpaste. Episode over.

 

[Exflex]

Did you read the link I posted in my first post? It’s simply not true.

I’ve just read it through, start to finish. A very technical paper with many acronyms introduced requiring frequent back tracks to where it first appeared in the text. I plan to have a second read and to make notes. I have to say the ‘look up’ function on my iPad was put to good use.
My take away: 130g of carbs fulfils the brains glucose needs, but it can be converted from other dietary elements on a Keto if diet, or where dietary carbs fall lower the 130g but greater than 30/40g.
I think I’ll practice the tip my diabetic consultant mentioned to me yesterday: everything in moderation.
Thank you for the link.

 

[Dragonheart]

You're not wrong. It's all about balance. It's difficult to find a consensus on how much protein we should eat. Official guidelines are 54g per day for men, 45g for women, but since our bodies need protein to function I think those are probably minimums. What I've often seen is that for someone who's inactive it should be 0.8g per kilo of body weight, 1.2g for someone moderately active and 2.2g if you're very active. I weigh 70kg and am moderately active, so I've made my target to stay under 90g.

What size man or woman? How active? What fluid intake? Ridiculous to have such blanket guidance

You have an arbitrary tiny 6g leeway between what you accept as 1.2kg per kilo recommendation (minimum/maximum??) and your self imposed limit of 90g.

Everything I’ve read on the subject suggests healthy kidneys are absolutely fine with good amounts of protein a fair way above mimimum levels of 0.8kg to 1.2kg per kilo often quoted. If your kidneys already have issues then it may be different. But a person with a particular condition often has to consider and maybe amend general guidance for almost every condition so there’s nothing special about kidneys there.

 

[snowball12]

Or may also be down to the carbs used in kibble causing raised BG levels resulting in kidney damage from undetected diabetes. We are seeing more and more overweight carnivore pets develop diabetes.

No it's down to pure protein. I speak from experience, lost two cats to kidney failure. They were old. I feed them only meat and not biscuits. The info I had was from the Vet. I have three cats and the 16 year old is showing signs of kidney failure.

 

[snowball12]

I’ve just read it through, start to finish. A very technical paper with many acronyms introduced requiring frequent back tracks to where it first appeared in the text. I plan to have a second read and to make notes. I have to say the ‘look up’ function on my iPad was put to good use.
My take away: 130g of carbs fulfils the brains glucose needs, but it can be converted from other dietary elements on a Keto if diet, or where dietary carbs fall lower the 130g but greater than 30/40g.
I think I’ll practice the tip my diabetic consultant mentioned to me yesterday: everything in moderation.
Thank you for the link.

Couldn't agree with you more

 

[Martin.A]

What size man or woman? How active? What fluid intake? Ridiculous to have such blanket guidance

Tell the Government then - it's their guidance.

 

[Dragonheart]

Tell the Government then - it's their guidance.

I agree.

But we can each use a little common sense when reading (and disseminating) it to decide if it’s a ridiculously broad stroke in need of a bit more detail or ok. You obviously decided the former because you went on to use a per kilo of body weight number so it begs the question why bother with the former.

 

[JITR]

I never mentioned the diet. Stop making straw man arguments. (Anyway, 2 and 3 of your claims are nonsense, and 1 is pretty obvious these days.

Rules, not claims.

That link highlights some her dubious, contradictory claims, which you clearly didn't read, and

Wrong.

she's been investigated by the ASA for some of her claims in the past.

Example: publishing some testimonials from people who had lost weight, objected to by Slipp Digby. Whatever next?

 

[AndBreathe]

I think that any diet that cuts out a major food group is dangerous. Too much protein will end your kidneys eventually.

I disagree with your second sentence.

High dietary protein MAY (not will) cause kidney issues, often related to hypertension in the kidney. However, I believe it is commonly accepted that some of the most damaging things for kidney health are hypertension, undiagnosed, unmanaged or poorly managed diabetes of all sorts, heart disease and obesity.

Throw into the mix genetics and that not other health conditions and you have a good old risk pool.

Something like a third of senior citizens have CKD of some sort, although often low grade.

Mt last statement is dredged from my memory from a talk on nephropathy from a few years ago, so the third might be a bit off, but at the time I was astonished by the numbers.

 

[Eddy Edson]

Protein: *Probably* the usual RDA's for protein are lowballs but it's surprising IMO how flimsy the evidence base is.

This conversation between relevant experts Christopher Gardner and Stuart Phillips with Simon Hill is interesting:

Check out the commentary on the old nitrogen balance studies which form the basis of the RDA's. Conceptually elegant but practically disgusting - volunteers submitted themselves to having everything going in & out measured, wearing something like Freman still-suits :shudder: