Paths to remission or control. Newcastle and Low Carb.

[Dragonheart]

This is done frequently.

And requests are repeatedly made to keep newcomer threads on-topic, and to not divert them into detailed arguments comparing different interpretations of research findings.

See this thread for details: https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/members-responding-to-newcomers-please-remember.104405/

To my mind the discussion here is not about erroneous or misleading statements - it seems to be people who to entirely reject Prof Taylor's work as a viable option for anyone. Even though it has sufficiently robust clinical trial data behind it to be adopted as an option being offered more widely - after the success of a pilot programme.

As far as I'm concerned there's nothing about the possibility of people having success with the Newcastle Diet / Soup & Shake diet that detracts from people having success with a low carbohydrate approach (also supported in the NHS eg the Freshwell Project and by Diabetes UK). There simply isn't any need to say it 'doesn't work' just because it isn't an option that you chose yourself.

Ok. And fair comment re newbie threads. To me that particular sidetracking on this particular thread seemed to be resolved fairly quickly though.

It seems more derailed by the medication/remission posts (even as I was part of that to dispute misleading statements) not the carb/calories one. Perhaps you could split that part off now?

You didn’t answer, in principle, what to do when newbie posts have misleading/one sided derailing comments made.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

You didn’t answer, in principle, what to do when newbie posts have misleading/one sided derailing comments made.

Former forum admin @Northerner made this suggestion over a decade ago in the thread I linked you to...

Where you feel such a post would be useful, please consider responding with a brief summary of the main point (eg: "some researchers have found that x helps with y.") and create a new thread in the General Messageboard or News sections where you can make the point in full detail - You can note the link to the greater detail in the original thread. This also allows other members to respond to/debate the issues you have raised without dominating the original thread.

So you'll understand that this is not a new issue.

Having alternatives and options presented is a perfectly healthy part of forum conversations and discussions.

Again, to quote Northie,

Debate and differing opinions are healthy, but must always be conducted with respect and tolerance for others.

Were there posts made in this thread which you considered to be

misleading/one sided derailing comments made.

If so you could have reported them to that they could be addressed by the mods.

 

[Admiral Benbow]

Everyone please!

There are multiple methods of managing diabetes well.

Some people choose a short low calorie intervention aiming for significant weight loss, and then move to a maintenance menu to help the weight to stay off. For those who have the most success with this method, pancreatic function is measurably restored and carbohydrates can become less problematic.

Other people prefer low carbohydrate, or very low carbohydrate diet, and maintain this way of eating long-term. Some successfully manage this for years or even decades, and can even find that long held issues with hunger disappear, and weight loss can happen without feeling deprived.


Low calorie / weight loss / soup&shake doesn’t work (or appeal) to everyone.

Low carb or keto doesn’t work (or appeal) to everyone.

It really doesn’t help newcomers feel encouraged that there are multiple options towards a successful outcome if different sides try to undermine the effectiveness of a method they did not choose themselves.

Please accept that some people will want to try a different method to the one that worked for you.

Yeah I did both low calorie and low carb to get to normal BMI with the aim of 22, and thinner waist below 86.5 cm. I overshot to 19.9 before my A1C test with a waist of around 84 cm. More than my goal, as I knew generally thinner folks have less issues with Type 2 diabetes. I think with something as opaque and subjective as diabetes and health, we can just take some general principles and see what works for us to get those blood glucose numbers down. I know for me, my approach of fasting 48 hours a week, everyweek would seem extreme to many people. But I know for me it is the fastest way to arrest rising blood sugars and get them down. Just start finding out what starts to steer the ship to the right destination I say.

 

[Burylancs]

One of the most significant aspects of the results of the Direct trial is that T2 diabetes does not necessarily have to be seen as inevitably progressive in all cases any longer.

Reversing Type 2 Diabetes

Discover how Newcastle University research by Professor Roy Taylor could reverse Type 2 diabetes and change lives. Read the full story.

from.ncl.ac.uk

“Most recently, the Newcastle research has shown that the small, shrunken pancreas found in Type 2 diabetes actually recovers to its normal size and shape over the two years.

Research trial​

About Professor Taylor

Roy Taylor is professor of Medicine and Metabolism at Newcastle University. His work has shown that Type 2 diabetes is not inevitably progressive and life-long

Good grief, Taylor's work hasn't shown anything of the kind, it was only 6 years ago for crying out loud ! His participants still have 10, 20, 39 years in front of them. Taylor himself, in his 2018 article in the Lancet, cautioned that 'remission' on his definition of the term wouldn't stop people getting complications.

 

[AndBreathe]

And to drive that point home, about 1 in 20 T2s are in remission a year after diagnosis but only about 1 in 14000 after five years, almost all owed to weight regain through losing the plot.

May I ask where your 1 in 20, then 1 in 14000 numbers come from, please?

 

[AndBreathe]

Ahem ...may I remind the Hon. Poster of the statement in their Sig .....

'Daily regimen is 2000 cals with about 130-150g carbs and two fast walks covering 3 miles'

That seems to constitute 4 daily tasks you set yourself in order to maintain Good Control.

Sorry, I wonder if I missed a response from you on this query?

 

[childofthesea43]

May I ask where your 1 in 20, then 1 in 14000 numbers come from, please?

The figures today may be better or worse than those I cited which come from a study of nearly 123,000 type-2 patients published nine years ago: “Incidence of Remission in Adults with Type 2 Diabetes: The Diabetes & Aging Study”, by A J Karter et al and published in the journal Diabetes Care, vol. 37, pp3188-3195, December 2014.

 

[childofthesea43]

Sorry, I wonder if I missed a response from you on this query?

Are you asking me or Burylancs?

 

[bulkbiker]

https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/is-the-nhs-soup-and-shake-type-2-diabetes-diet-really-the-solution-weve-been-waiting-for.106360/

 

[AndBreathe]

Are you asking me or Burylancs?

@Burylancs .

 

[AndBreathe]

Are you asking me or Burylancs?

Thanks. It's good to know where such numbers come from.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'd be interested to look at more recent numbers. I'd be surprised if the numbers were staggeringly different.

 

[childofthesea43]

Thanks. It's good to know where such numbers come from.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I'd be interested to look at more recent numbers. I'd be surprised if the numbers were staggeringly different.

I agree, I’d expect today’s figures to be similar or perhaps a bit better but not much. It is critically important that one should be comfortable with one’s way of eating for the long term, no matter how remission be first achieved.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Good grief, Taylor's work hasn't shown anything of the kind, it was only 6 years ago for crying out loud ! His participants still have 10, 20, 39 years in front of them. Taylor himself, in his 2018 article in the Lancet, cautioned that 'remission' on his definition of the term wouldn't stop people getting complications.

Are you in contact with Prof Taylor?

I believe I’ve seen him say that some of the Direct discoveries have formed a significant change in the way T2D is viewed. Including regrowth of withered pancreas seen in MRI.

It would be interesting to know if his position has changed - the post I quoted from Newcastle Uni specifically said that his work showed T2D was no longer inevitably progressive, but if you are in contact it would be good to hear the latest information.

I wasn’t at DUK Professional Conference in Liverpool this year so didn’t get to see any follow-up work that may have been presented. Are you in the industry? Were you there?

 

[bulkbiker]

This is precisely the problem with things like DiRECT where we get profs like Taylor and Lean saying if you lose 15kg you can put T2 into remission. It simply confirms that T2's are fat and lazy and if they just eat less and move more then they'll be fine..
I'm surprised that no-one on this thread has made that connection.. I mean I know it's incorrect but the more it gets reported then the more entrenched the opinion will become.

There might be something in it since T2s are said to be battling with it for 5 to 10 years before formal diagnosis.

And if only the NHS starting testing for excessive insulin production then how many could be "cured" before their blood sugar dysregulation became obvious.

 

[nonethewiser]

This is precisely the problem with things like DiRECT where we get profs like Taylor and Lean saying if you lose 15kg you can put T2 into remission. It simply confirms that T2's are fat and lazy and if they just eat less and move more then they'll be fine..

Damn those 2 profs.