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Oof - Trump

Rob Oldfield said:
And, in the US version of 'freedom of speech'.....

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So there goes the US constitution's first amendment then.

First Amendment​

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
 
Trump considers himself to be above such feeble things as Laws, not only in his own country.

He's already said the US could quite easily (apparently) take Greenland by force if they don't voluntarily decide to be ruled by the US. PLus, now he's banned the UK sharing US military intelligence with Ukraine. Er, hang on, I'm just a retired insurance broker, so no expert but how the hell can some foreign Government do that? Don't we have our own, freely and democratically elected Government, plus a King who nominally heads that Gov? When you have a proposal to put forward to an ally, don't you usually have a chat about things before proposing stuff, eg do you think this or that might help? How about if we do something jointly, what do you think?

But he hasn't proposed it has he - he's banned it outright.
 
trophywench said:
Trump considers himself to be above such feeble things as Laws, not only in his own country.

He's already said the US could quite easily (apparently) take Greenland by force if they don't voluntarily decide to be ruled by the US. PLus, now he's banned the UK sharing US military intelligence with Ukraine. Er, hang on, I'm just a retired insurance broker, so no expert but how the hell can some foreign Government do that? Don't we have our own, freely and democratically elected Government, plus a King who nominally heads that Gov? When you have a proposal to put forward to an ally, don't you usually have a chat about things before proposing stuff, eg do you think this or that might help? How about if we do something jointly, what do you think?

But he hasn't proposed it has he - he's banned it outright.
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I'm sure I read that some of our military systems are tied in with US ones. I'd tend to assume that this is an information sharing arrangement, and on that assumption, then if the military intelligence comes direct from the US part of the system, then they could count it as US owned data only to be shared with approved countries.
Of course this is based on assumption which is always questionable.
 
Maz2 said:
I was appalled by it all but then I don't like Trump or Vance anyway. I wouldn't expect Zelensky to be wearing a suit anyway when his country is at war as many have said. Kemi Badenoch made a good point on Sunday that they ought really to have had an interpreter as English is not Zelensky's mother tongue. It certainly should have all been done behind closed doors.

All this does need sorting out and I am glad I am not the one that is going to have to do it. Think our Gov are being sensible in not being goaded to make negative comments about the US.
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Allegedly, Zelensky was the one who wanted the press there.

I'm uncomfortable about the degree of canonisation of Zelensky in all this. Ukraine is a corrupt country, and as it's leader I'm not so sure he is altogether saintly - In my view, of course.

Edited to that add the second part of my post was in general, not a direct response to @Maz2 's post.
 
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AndBreathe said:
I'm uncomfortable about the degree of canonisation of Zelensky in all this. Ukraine is a corrupt country, and as it's leader I'm not so sure he is altogether saintly - In my view, of course.
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And so is most other countries......russia definatly is.....id say the uk is corrupt.....america is as bent as a 6 pound note

Zelensky just happened to be there when russia invaded and for someone who isnt a natural politician hes done a pretty good job

As for being canonised...........in my opinion thatcher was terrible.....blair is a war criminal......dont even get me started on trump.............zelensky is at least standing up to a tyrant rather than being one..

Would you rather had russia take over ukraine without any fuss from the rest of europe then do nothing when putin picks the next one he fancies?
 
paultrose said:
And so is most other countries......russia definatly is.....id say the uk is corrupt.....america is as bent as a 6 pound note

Zelensky just happened to be there when russia invaded and for someone who isnt a natural politician hes done a pretty good job

As for being canonised...........in my opinion thatcher was terrible.....blair is a war criminal......dont even get me started on trump.............zelensky is at least standing up to a tyrant rather than being one..

Would you rather had russia take over ukraine without any fuss from the rest of europe then do nothing when putin picks the next one he fancies?
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I gave my view, breaking my own rule of not entering political debates.
 
CliffH said:
I don't see why a Ukrainian should feel pressured to wear a 'Western-style' suit: I know that lots of world leaders (including Putin) do dress as if they were Westerners but I think it's a shame.

Ukraine's at war and so Zelensky wearing army fatigues is a good reminder of that. I don't think people complained during World War II when Churchill and Stalin wore military clothing.
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It was interesting to compare Zelensky's outfit with Field Marshall/General Montgomery's choice of uniform, often combat sometimes battledress occasionally the full aahhh (not Monty) dress uniform. if you are interested see https://history.stackexchange.com/q...-generals-have-a-choice-which-uniform-to-wear
 
paultrose said:
And so is most other countries......russia definatly is.....id say the uk is corrupt.....america is as bent as a 6 pound note

Zelensky just happened to be there when russia invaded and for someone who isnt a natural politician hes done a pretty good job

As for being canonised...........in my opinion thatcher was terrible.....blair is a war criminal......dont even get me started on trump.............zelensky is at least standing up to a tyrant rather than being one..

Would you rather had russia take over ukraine without any fuss from the rest of europe then do nothing when putin picks the next one he fancies?
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I'd agree with all of that
IMO he's done brilliantly in terms of soliciting aid and support for his country, In that respect i think Ukraine would be hard placed to improve on his efforts starting from day 1 where he personally refused to evacuate when he was at risk in his default location.
 
AndBreathe said:
Allegedly, Zelensky was the one who wanted the press there.

I'm uncomfortable about the degree of canonisation of Zelensky in all this. Ukraine is a corrupt country, and as it's leader I'm not so sure he is altogether saintly - In my view, of course.

Edited to that add the second part of my post was in general, not a direct response to @Maz2 's post.
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I did some work in Ukraine just after independence from the Soviet Union and I remember being told at the time: "Just because Ukrainian people look like you, don't forget that their cultural and socio-political history is completely different from yours".

Ukraine has had very limited experience (thanks to Russia / the Soviet Union) in recent centuries of being independent. So, it's unrealistic to think that it can quickly learn to mimic a Western democracy - and why should it? As to whether or not Zelensky "is altogether saintly", who said he is? Which political leaders ever are?
 
And also just to add that Zelenskyy assumed office 20 May 2019. So with Covid and the invasion it would be absolutely astonishing if he'd managed to sort out any of the corruption.

I'd also be wary that any news or social media pointing out the corruption could be Russian troll farms attempting to undermine him so that can put a more 'friendly' face in.
 
Rob Oldfield said:
And also just to add that Zelenskyy assumed office 20 May 2019. So with Covid and the invasion it would be absolutely astonishing if he'd managed to sort out any of the corruption.

I'd also be wary that any news or social media pointing out the corruption could be Russian troll farms attempting to undermine him so that can put a more 'friendly' face in.
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The accusation of "corruption" that Western countries tend to level at other countries is an example of attempts to apply Western ideas and values to parts of the world that may think very differently and have very different cultural and socio-political histories.

In Ukraine's case, it's never (apart from a very short period in the early Twentieth Century) been a democracy and for most of the past several hundred years it's been ruled by Russia / the Soviet Union. So, how people get things done has had to be quite different from how we've tended to get things done in the UK.

Accusations of corruption can work both ways. For example, I was in Ukraine shortly after 9/11 and the general attitude of ordinary people whom I met tended to be that, whilst the loss of life was very sad, the US had it coming to them, because of their 'corrupt' dealings with the rest of the world.
 
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