NHS doctors’ strike is ‘inevitable,’ says new BMA chair

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A doctor’s strike is “inevitable” and will expose how dangerously threadbare the Conservatives have left the health service, the profession’s new leader has said.

In his first interview since taking over as the British Medical Association’s chair of council, Prof Philip Banfield warned ministers that doctors will take the fight to them by using a pay dispute to tell the public patients are dying as a direct result of government neglect of the NHS.

Members of the doctors’ union voted last month to seek a 30% increase in their salaries over the next five years. This would amount to a “full pay restoration” for the real-terms cut in income they have suffered since 2008, through years of pay freezes and 1% or 2% annual uplifts. Ministers criticised the claim as unrealistic and unaffordable.

www.theguardian.com

NHS doctors’ strike is ‘inevitable,’ says new BMA chair

Exclusive: doctors will use pay row to expose ‘desperate state’ of NHS after years of government neglect, Prof Philip Banfield warned
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Doctors are just one of the many public sector workers such as teachers who have had pay rises not keeping up with inflation since the Tories came into power in 2010. All are looking for corrective pay rises and threatening industrial action.

The pay rises in the private sector are averaging around 8% in many areas, despite the right wing press moaning about public sector workers bleeding the country dry.
 
But more pay will mean the chalice is still just as poisonous.
The whole system needs huge reform- ensuring that work is delegated appropriately to staff according to their skill and there is sufficient time / equipment / support to complete it.
Some patients are being shockingly under served ( and others are still making inappropriate demands )
 
Abi said:
But more pay will mean the chalice is still just as poisonous.
The whole system needs huge reform- ensuring that work is delegated appropriately to staff according to their skill and there is sufficient time / equipment / support to complete it.
Some patients are being shockingly under served ( and others are still making inappropriate demands )
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£120,000 a year isn't too shabby.
And do many students start training on £30,000 basic rising to £40,000 with 8 hours overtime week?
 
Amity Island said:
Why are some of the wealthiest employees in the country planning on striking? Are they struggling to make ends meet? What is their motivation?
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I imagine that their motivation is to see their pay stop being effectively eroded each year due to inflation (which is 9%, according to the ONS). They've had one and two percent pay rises per year in the past, which is in effect a 7 or 8% pay cut, if that's what the government offer them now. They have skills that the country needs, it takes 10 years to train a GP, and they're seeing shortages of GPs which is putting pressure on the ones in post.

I don't disagree that they're paid well, but do you expect intelligent, highly qualified health professionals like doctors to work for a crappy wage? If I'd spent 10 years studying for something, I'd want a decent wage for it. It's not unreasonable to expect them to leave medicine and just get a better paying job somewhere else if they're not paid the going rate, or leave the country and work somewhere else where their skills, knowledge and experience are valued.

I don't work in health care, but I do appreciate the job that they're doing. I had a phone appointment with my GP, and it was at 7.30 in the evening. If I had to work as late as that after starting at 8am, I think I'd be earning every penny of the £120k. Merchant bankers earn about £150k a year, are they worth more to society than a GP?
 
Windy said:
I imagine that their motivation is to see their pay stop being effectively eroded each year due to inflation (which is 9%, according to the ONS). They've had one and two percent pay rises per year in the past, which is in effect a 7 or 8% pay cut, if that's what the government offer them now. They have skills that the country needs, it takes 10 years to train a GP, and they're seeing shortages of GPs which is putting pressure on the ones in post.

I don't disagree that they're paid well, but do you expect intelligent, highly qualified health professionals like doctors to work for a crappy wage? If I'd spent 10 years studying for something, I'd want a decent wage for it. It's not unreasonable to expect them to leave medicine and just get a better paying job somewhere else if they're not paid the going rate, or leave the country and work somewhere else where their skills, knowledge and experience are valued.

I don't work in health care, but I do appreciate the job that they're doing. I had a phone appointment with my GP, and it was at 7.30 in the evening. If I had to work as late as that after starting at 8am, I think I'd be earning every penny of the £120k. Merchant bankers earn about £150k a year, are they worth more to society than a GP
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Well doctors use merchant bankers to look after their pensions, so I guess they think so.
And this ten years studying?
Every job has ongoing training, just not with such high starting salaries and guaranteed pay rises throughout.
As to shift work, yes, some may work a longer day on day true, but they certainly don't work everyday. (The old "Doctors in today" on the surgery notice board, when you go get into the surgery?)
Trying to actually get an appointment with your own doctor nowadays is nearly impossible, not knowing if they are in or not anymore.
Maybe telling people on the breadline now holding down two or three jobs that £120k for the odd long day isn't enough and justifies a £40,000 pay rise isn't going to get them brownie points off most people?
 
travellor said:
Trying to actually get an appointment with your own doctor nowadays is nearly impossible, not knowing if they are in or not anymore.
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It's a signifier of how much pressure the NHS is under. I'm not sure paying GPs less in real terms (as a 9% inflation rate and a 2% pay rise would mean a 7% pay cut for them) would help with recruitment of more GPs to help with the workload.
travellor said:
Maybe telling people on the breadline now holding down two or three jobs that £120k for the odd long day isn't enough and justifies a £40,000 pay rise isn't going to get them brownie points off most people?
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Long days seem to be standard for a GP - even part time ones are 40 hours a week, according to the BMA, so I've no idea how many hours full time would be.
I don't think anyone's telling anyone that £120k isn't enough, it's just the going rate for GPs. It's supply and demand, just like it is with housing and everything else, if there's scarcity of houses, or doctors or whatever, it costs more. It's not a popularity contest or a race to the bottom. If you hold a skillset which is rare and useful, then perhaps you should be paid commensurate with that, or you'll take your skills elsewhere. If you don't have a rare skillset, and have to work two or three jobs, then your employers should value you more, and pay you enough that you can afford to live without recourse to food banks or benefits. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I don't think anyone deserves to live in poverty, irrespective of the job that they do. I've worked in a factory and packed shelves, and even less glamorous jobs like these shouldn't mean poverty wages. Even as a factory worker, I would have recognised that GPs should earn more than me for their skillset and experience.
The government had plenty of money to waste on some things, like useless PPE (£4 billion wasted during the pandemic that had to be burned as it wasn't up to scratch), so I suspect it's entirely politically motivated that the coffers are apparently bare for pay rises, but full for other things.
 
Amity Island said:
The problem then appears to be not the actual amount they get paid, but by the comparison to this or that (inflation, what others are being paid), only then is it seen as a problem.

E.g I've got a great mobile phone.....until I see my mates phone which is better, my phone isn't as good now.
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No, I don't think it's the politics of envy or the lure of new shiny things, it's just supply and demand. If you want something rare, you have to pay more for it. If it takes ten years to train someone to do something, then it makes sense to keep them doing that job after, and to do that it helps not to keep effectively cutting their pay by allowing it to fall behind the inflation rate.
 
Windy said:
It's a signifier of how much pressure the NHS is under. I'm not sure paying GPs less in real terms (as a 9% inflation rate and a 2% pay rise would mean a 7% pay cut for them) would help with recruitment of more GPs to help with the workload.

Long days seem to be standard for a GP - even part time ones are 40 hours a week, according to the BMA, so I've no idea how many hours full time would be.
I don't think anyone's telling anyone that £120k isn't enough, it's just the going rate for GPs. It's supply and demand, just like it is with housing and everything else, if there's scarcity of houses, or doctors or whatever, it costs more. It's not a popularity contest or a race to the bottom. If you hold a skillset which is rare and useful, then perhaps you should be paid commensurate with that, or you'll take your skills elsewhere. If you don't have a rare skillset, and have to work two or three jobs, then your employers should value you more, and pay you enough that you can afford to live without recourse to food banks or benefits. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I don't think anyone deserves to live in poverty, irrespective of the job that they do. I've worked in a factory and packed shelves, and even less glamorous jobs like these shouldn't mean poverty wages. Even as a factory worker, I would have recognised that GPs should earn more than me for their skillset and experience.
The government had plenty of money to waste on some things, like useless PPE (£4 billion wasted during the pandemic that had to be burned as it wasn't up to scratch), so I suspect it's entirely politically motivated that the coffers are apparently bare for pay rises, but full for other things.
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It's a scarcity generated by the Medical old boys network.
The UK has been notorious for setting the university entry requirements at an artificially high level for UK candidates.
Or giving a nod to those whose parents can "support" the university.
And before the "well, we need the brainiest", we are more than happy to accept that doctors trained abroad, in university education that is totally different to ours, and indeed of which we actually normally have no knowledge, are just as intelligent, and obviously worth the same pay level.
 
travellor said:
It's a scarcity generated by the Medical old boys network.
The UK has been notorious for setting the university entry requirements at an artificially high level for UK candidates.
Or giving a nod to those whose parents can "support" the university.
And before the "well, we need the brainiest", we are more than happy to accept that doctors trained abroad, in university education that is totally different to ours, and indeed of which we actually normally have no knowledge, are just as intelligent, and obviously worth the same pay level.
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I wouldn't disagree with you there. There's a research paper which says that only 4% of doctors are from a working class background. How we should address this, I don't have an answer. I would like for able, talented children who happen to be poor to have the same opportunities as able, talented children who happen to be rich, but I acknowledge it's not the case.
As for recruiting (poaching?) doctors who have trained abroad, they're probably needed in their home countries too, but I can understand why people would move to another country for a better wage and better opportunites than they can get at home.
If I had any answers to the whole thing, I would be PM, rather than an office worker!
Hope you stay cool in this horrible heat @travellor, Sarah
 
Windy said:
I wouldn't disagree with you there. There's a research paper which says that only 4% of doctors are from a working class background. How we should address this, I don't have an answer. I would like for able, talented children who happen to be poor to have the same opportunities as able, talented children who happen to be rich, but I acknowledge it's not the case.
As for recruiting (poaching?) doctors who have trained abroad, they're probably needed in their home countries too, but I can understand why people would move to another country for a better wage and better opportunites than they can get at home.
If I had any answers to the whole thing, I would be PM, rather than an office worker!
Hope you stay cool in this horrible heat @travellor, Sarah
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We should address it by accepting they are just a very small part of the NHS as a whole.
Without the machinery, the nurses, the receptionist who answers the phone, they couldn't work.
It's a group that propogates their own myth, and we should actively force change to entry requirements and class background.
 
Hardy said:
Where has this £120000 figure come from?
It is not reflective of pay of junior doctors and GPs
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You're right..Junior doctors pay tops out on £80,000 a year.
Then again, that's not a shabby junior salary.
But we are talking about doctors, it seems a bit of a distraction to mention "junior".
Unless other non junior doctors want to chip a bit of their £120,000 in to cover them? Or step back from their demands for the same 30% rise?

A salaried GP is £62,000 to £94,000.
GP partners are self-employed and would only be doing that if they beat that salary.
 
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My understanding is that a junior doctor is any doctor that is not a consultant.

This is on my surgery website
The average pay for GPs working in xx Surgery in the last financial year was £73,989 before tax and National Insurance.

I have absolutely no issue with this
 
travellor said:
Well doctors use merchant bankers to look after their pensions, so I guess they think so.
And this ten years studying?
Every job has ongoing training, just not with such high starting salaries and guaranteed pay rises throughout.
As to shift work, yes, some may work a longer day on day true, but they certainly don't work everyday. (The old "Doctors in today" on the surgery notice board, when you go get into the surgery?)
Trying to actually get an appointment with your own doctor nowadays is nearly impossible, not knowing if they are in or not anymore.
Maybe telling people on the breadline now holding down two or three jobs that £120k for the odd long day isn't enough and justifies a £40,000 pay rise isn't going to get them brownie points off most people?
Click to expand...
I don't know of any doctors who used merchant bankers to manage their pensions. Not when the NHS pension is one of the best you can pay for. I know, because that's what my accountant said. The Civil Service is even better, it's not contributory to make up for the lower pay they get in comparison to the private sector similar jobs. That's why my accumulated pension in the NHS was transferred into the Civil Service when i changed my job. My pension now increases each year in line with RPI. And it's more money than any junior doctor can make.
 
Amity Island said:
Hi @Windy

I don't think I explained what i meant very well.

What I was trying to say was, people can be happy with what they have, until they find others are getting paid more than them. Its not that they are unhappy with their pay (who wouldn't be happy with a salary of over 80k a year) it's only when you find out others are getting more.

Like a payroll clerk who "accidentally " leaves a list of employees and their salaries on their desk for all to see. Everyone was happy with the salary they negotiated, but when they see what everyone else is getting, then they ask for a pay rise.
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It's not just humans who see inequitable treatment and don't like it. There's a fascinating experiment shown here with two monkeys who are paid with cucumber or grapes (2 mins 43s long).
No one wants to be cucumber monkey.
 
I think the real disatisfaction is about far more than pay. It's about working in a system which is often barely or non functioning in which people become mired down having to do the jobs of others and hence cannot do their own effectively...
(Competent )Receptionists and nurses are vital I agree - and a whole host of others not only in health care but other services -we need other staff in sufficient numbers- often do not end up with them
 
Fundamental problem with recruitment & retention with GPS far as can gather, fair few in our surgery have opted for early retirement

. Money they make is good & very generous but couldn't do job for no amount of money, must be very stressful.
 
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