Journey 2 Remission/Reversal II (Don't call it a comeback).

[Eddy Edson]

@Eddy Edson
Thank you for those references.
While the headlines may be clear it will take me some time to digest the detail.

This might be useful also: Gil Cavalhao interviewing a National Lipid Association etc leader, setting out the current nuanced mainstream view:

With a bunch of references.

 

[rebrascora]

I read what Davis wrote in the book and then searched for current research and opinion such as the paper I quoted. At the next opportunity, I'll ask for a small LDL test.

As far as I am aware the NHS don't test for LDL, let alone small LDL

 

[beating_my_betes]

This might be useful also: Gil Cavalhao interviewing a National Lipid Association etc leader, setting out the current nuanced mainstream view:

With a bunch of references.

I already posted that earlier. Of course, such important info bears repeating.

 

[harbottle]

As far as I am aware the NHS don't test for LDL, let alone small LDL

No, they use an equation - something like total cholesterol - HDL-(trigs/2.2).
I think the trigs bit is an attempt to eliminate VLDL.

Total = LDL-C+HDL+VLDL

 

[beating_my_betes]

I'll accept what William Davis wrote until a better model* presents itself, 'Think of it this way: anything that provokes an increase in blood sugar will also provoke small LDL particles. Anything that keeps blood sugar from increasing, such as proteins, fats, and reduction in carbohydrates such as wheat, reduces small LDL particles....' (see one of my previous posts, above)
* such as ApoB?

But you've yet to demonstrate that what Davis is saying holds water. So why would you accept what he has written, at all?

There're so many things that causes blood-sugar to increase (Try a CGM if you're unsure), and were blood-sugar rises to be inherently bad it would be unlkely any of us would've made it into double-digit years, if we managed to make it past weaning (Human milk is relatively carb rich compared to cow's milk, which human chidren are made to drink anyway).

As I've said, even if wheat were uniquely problematic (the raison d'être of his book), why would he be advising a low-carb diet? The answer may be that low-carb was his starting point, and everything was reverse-engineered from there. And it's in these non-wheat-specific claims where the bread absolutely falls out of the basket. Not only does he seem to not be making a causal association between wheat, but he also seems to have fallen for all the anti-grain/carb nonsense.

At this point, I've given you a link to a meta-analysis, discussing the health effects of grains. Seems like a much stronger hook upon which to hang your coat than the one in Davis' cloakroom.

 

[JITR]

However, the association of small dense LDL with ASCVD is markedly reduced or entirely eliminated when the analyses are adjusted for other factors that affect the risk of ASCVD (63,64). The National Lipid Association expert panel was unable to identify any patient subgroups in which measuring LDL size is necessary (65). The author concurs with that viewpoint.

It's interesting to see the summary of #64 (2010) concludes, ' ... recent studies suggest that more refined analyses of lipoprotein subspecies may lead to further improvements ... particularly in identification of appropriate targets for therapeutic intervention in individual patients.' (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20531184/)

In other words, diagnostics like the level of small LDL particles could help people avoid becoming CVD patients. Clinicians' needs may differ from mine. In much the same way as my HbA1c result led my GP to prescribe Metformin and me to prioritise weight loss without medication.

 

[beating_my_betes]

It's interesting to see the summary of #64 (2010) concludes, ' ... recent studies suggest that more refined analyses of lipoprotein subspecies may lead to further improvements ... particularly in identification of appropriate targets for therapeutic intervention in individual patients.' (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20531184/)

In other words, diagnostics like the level of small LDL particles could help people avoid becoming CVD patients. Clinicians' needs may differ from mine. In much the same way as my HbA1c result led my GP to prescribe Metformin and me to prioritise weight loss without medication.

This is still emerging science, and nothing is set in stone. What is clear is that all factors need to be considered. If it is the case that sdLDL is indeed the huge antagonist that people like Davis claim, then we need to cast a wider net when it comes to the causes. Within such an appraisal, its important to look at hard outcome human data e.g. the reverse association between ALL whole grains and various types of disease, despite Davis et al's claims and contrary to ALL expectations by those who feel emboldened, for whatever reason, to blame everything on BG rises via carbs.

Anyway, as far as interesting, I'll 'see' your advice to reduce grains to reduce sdLDL, and raise you 'the advice to reduce saturated-fat, and eat more fibre via fruits & vegetables'...for the same outcomes:

Small dense LDL: Risks, healthy levels, prevention, and more

Small dense LDL is a type of cholesterol that can put a person at higher risk of certain conditions if they have too much of it in their blood. Learn more.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

 

[Eddy Edson]

I already posted that earlier. Of course, such important info bears repeating.

Oops!

 

[JITR]

I'll 'see' your advice to reduce grains to reduce sdLDL, and raise you 'the advice to reduce saturated-fat, and eat more fibre via fruits & vegetables'...for the same outcomes:

You present me with a false dichotomy. My current diet is based on protein (some of it weighing in with limited saturated fat), vegetables and some fruits, seeds and nuts. It's a balanced healthy diet according to the nutrients recorded on Cronometer and the way I feel.

I don't eat much food containing wheat; vegetables, fruits, seeds and nuts always win. My metabolism slowed during weight loss and the extra calories from grain would result in weight gain. That happens all too easily. When I have more time to exercise and cook, I shall enjoy making some of the things in The Nordic Baking Book, ironically in the context of this thread from a BHF charity shop.

Davis says he wrote Wheat Belly to make the case against wheat. I think he makes a good fist of that. Not least on the evidence of the many of his cardiovascular patients, who cut out wheat, lost weight and restored their health.

Interestingly, his index entry for Wheat Belly refers only to Visceral Fat. Perhaps his publishers thought Visceral Fat was unlikely to be a bestseller.

 

[beating_my_betes]

You present me with a false dichotomy. My current diet is based on protein, some it weighing with limited saturated fat, vegetables, and some fruits, seeds and nuts. It's a balanced healthy diet according to the nutrients recorded on Cronometer and the way I feel.

What I presented you with is a link (Did you read it?). I'm not making any judgment on your diet at all.

The link gives recommendations for reducing sdLDL that stand in contrast to those of Davis. Because, not only does Davis recommend getting rid of wheat, but he also recommends a low-carb diet.

I don't eat much food containing wheat. My metabolism slowed during weight loss and the extra calories will result in weight gain, it happens all too easily. When I have more time, to exercise and cook, I shall enjoy making some of the things in The Nordic Baking Book , ironically from a BHF charity shop.

How did you measure your metabolism change?

Davis says he wrote Wheat Belly to make the case against wheat. I think he makes a good fist of that. Not least on the evidence of the many of his cardiovascular patients, who cut out wheat, lost weight and restored their health.

You've yet to present any data showing a causal link between wheat and heart-disease, via sdLDL, which leads me to conclude you're just taking him on his word. That's up to you, but if you're going to share such claims with others then please provide solid evidence.

As for his patients: Did he make sure to remove only wheat, while insuring caloric inout remained the same?

 

[JITR]

[1] What I presented you with is a link (Did you read it?). I'm not making any judgment on your diet at all.

[2] The link gives recommendations for reducing sdLDL that stand in contrast to those of Davis. Because, not only does Davis recommend getting rid of wheat, but he also recommends a low-carb diet.

[3] How did you measure your metabolism change?

[4] You've yet to present any data showing a causal link between wheat and heart-disease, via sdLDL, which leads me to conclude you're just taking him on his word. That's up to you, but if you're going to share such claims with others then please provide solid evidence.

[5] As for his patients: Did he make sure to remove only wheat, while insuring caloric inout remained the same?

I had not looked at all this from your point of view. Thank you.

 

[beating_my_betes]

Once again, it's the amount rather than the size which is important:

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/advance-article/doi/10.1093/eurheartj/ehaf207/8118996

 

[beating_my_betes]

So, this is where I am.

I've spent so much time off the wagon that it no longer passes my door.

I have greatly reduced the frequency of my drinking, but am not in a position where I'm comfortable to quit, nor do I see the need to do so...completely.

I have a box of three CGM arriving today. These will be my last, with the exception of perhaps a single unit, some time in the future (Maintenance checks).

This will give me thirty-three-ish days, as a last attempt, to make significant progress with all facets of my current disease.

Failing that, my next option will be to try an extended period of juice 'fasting'. If I am unable to adhere to that I will ask my doctor about the possibility of getting on GLP-1 medication.

That's it That's the post...

 

[rebrascora]

Really sorry to hear that you are still struggling. Do be careful with a juice diet. I would hate to think that it pushed you into DKA.

 

[beating_my_betes]

Yum!

Vegan meal plan

This nutritionally balanced meal plan is suitable for vegans and and contains at least five portions of fruit and veg per day.

www.diabetes.org.uk

Shame I'm not really a follow-recipes kinda guy, but may take some inspiration and try a few of the meals.