Insulin amounts ?

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Bobbingbuoy

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 3c
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Evening all,

Without repeating my lead up to type 3c diagnosis 3 weeks ago, I was just wondering what BG numbers you were all at in the beginning and how much insulin ? I seem to have just been getting told to increase for 3 weeks now ? I’m upto 3 X 6 units of Novorapid with each meal , and 18 units of toujeo, my results are roughly 22 when I wake up , 27-29 during the day and 33 plus in the evening, hence them increasing my insulin. Tomorrow it’s going up again to 3 X 8units of Novorapid and 20 units of toujeo ? I know everybody is different but I was just curious if these are usual amounts at the beginning ( both BG and insulin ) ? Thanks
 
As you say everybody is different but have you been given any indication of how many carbs you should have for your fixed dose of Novorapid insulin.
It may be that is insufficient for the amount of carbs in your meals.
It is early days so they may be wanting to be conservative with your doses but those do seem quite high levels
There is lots to learn initially and they are likely wanting to keep things simple but you should perhaps ask about making adjustments when levels are high as the insulin often does not work as efficiently or as quickly when your levels are high.
How far in advance of eating do you inject your insulin.
 
As you say everybody is different but have you been given any indication of how many carbs you should have for your fixed dose of Novorapid insulin.
It may be that is insufficient for the amount of carbs in your meals.
It is early days so they may be wanting to be conservative with your doses but those do seem quite high levels
There is lots to learn initially and they are likely wanting to keep things simple but you should perhaps ask about making adjustments when levels are high as the insulin often does not work as efficiently or as quickly when your levels are high.
How far in advance of eating do you inject your insulin.
Thanks for your reply. I’ve a referral to see a dietician but haven’t had any dietary advice yet. I’m finding it quite difficult to get information online as for type 3c every page seems to contradict the next !!! I take my novorapid about 10 mins before my food , and then Creon for my necrotising pancreatitis about 5 mins before my food. My diabetes team said it’s enough to take in ( diabetes ) at the start so didn’t want to make it more difficult to absorb with throwing the diet element in too. I’m just a bit scared now if I keep increasing, of dropping to a very bad low all of a sudden ?
 
I currently take 22 units of basal (long acting insulin) and about 4 units with each meal although it varies depending upon what I am eating. When I was first diagnosed I was on 4 units with each meal and 8 units of basal, but that gradually increased as my beta cells were killed off during the first couple of years. Some people are on really tiny doses and other people will be on more. It really is quite individual but your body weight will have a bearing on it.
 
That’s why they do the insulin increases gradually @Bobbingbuoy - in order to avoid hypos. My guess is that you’re not having quite enough Toujeo, but it’s better to increase that gradually for safety reasons.

You don’t need to eat a special or restricted diet (unless the Creon requires it). Your insulin will be titrated upwards gradually. Do you have a Libre?
 
Thanks for your reply. I’ve a referral to see a dietician but haven’t had any dietary advice yet. I’m finding it quite difficult to get information online as for type 3c every page seems to contradict the next !!! I take my novorapid about 10 mins before my food , and then Creon for my necrotising pancreatitis about 5 mins before my food. My diabetes team said it’s enough to take in ( diabetes ) at the start so didn’t want to make it more difficult to absorb with throwing the diet element in too. I’m just a bit scared now if I keep increasing, of dropping to a very bad low all of a sudden ?
I'm not sure how insulin requirement may be different if 3c but as I gather you are treated as Type 1.
There is an on-line course about carb counting BERTIE which you can self refer which may help you or at least give you some questions to ask your diabetes team if you feel ready for getting a bit more knowledge.
 
I'm not sure how insulin requirement may be different if 3c but as I gather you are treated as Type 1.
There is an on-line course about carb counting BERTIE which you can self refer which may help you or at least give you some questions to ask your diabetes team if you feel ready for getting a bit more knowledge.

You don’t take insulin. What did you mean about adjustments in your post above? It seems unwise to give advice about a medication you don’t take.
 
You don’t take insulin. What did you mean about adjustments in your post above? It seems unwise to give advice about a medication you don’t take.
I believe I said they should ASK about making adjustments with their diabetic team.
 
I believe I said they should ASK about making adjustments with their diabetic team.

What adjustments? Your post above was bits you’d copied from Type 1s. You give the impression you’re on insulin or know about it and that can be misleading, especially to new members. You even posted on a thread about who used isophane insulin. I don’t get it. It’s not a game.
 
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@Bobbingbuoy you ask what are typical insulin doses at the beginning. There is no such thing as “typical”. For example, an adult with Type 1 may start on very small doses as their beta cells slowly die off. At first, our pancreas may be producing a significant proportion of the needed insulin. Others may lose their beta cells quicker and need to inject higher doses sooner.
As @Inka mentioned, it is common to slowly increase our dose rather than risk sudden BG drops.
It is also common to start on fixed doses to keep things simple as we learn to give ourselves insulin.
That said, with Type 1 (apologies I do not know if this would be the same with 3c), very high BG can result in Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA). With your numbers it may be worth testing for ketones as high levels of ketones can be dangerous, I recommend asking about this when you talk to your DSN.
 
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I seem to have just been getting told to increase for 3 weeks now ?
It will take longer than 3 weeks to get to the right dose. Bgs have to be lowered slowly, reducing too quickly can damage your eyesight.
 
Evening all,

Without repeating my lead up to type 3c diagnosis 3 weeks ago, I was just wondering what BG numbers you were all at in the beginning and how much insulin ?
@Bobbingbuoy, with the strong caveat that we are all different, my BGs were anything from low 3s (even some high 2s) to mid 20s after I was discharged from Hospital and my basal was around 14 units of Levermir twice daily plus NovoRapid foor meals. That was for someone with zero pancreas.

But when I switched from Levermir to Tresiba I was started on 15 or 16 units 1x daily (replacing 28 units of Levermir) and that Tresiba has steadily been reducing. Now I'm on only 8.5 units of Tresiba 1 x daily. I would say today's 8.5 units reflects what I actually need, despite no pancreas. So trying to compare what you take currently with others during their early days starting on insulin has very little value - either now or what you might end up taking when you have arrived at a more stable state in due course. Also those guiding your changes are trying to find what you need - because you need what you need.
That said, with Type 1 (apologies I do not know if this would be the same with 3c), very high BG can result in Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA). With your numbers it may be worth testing for ketones as high levels of ketones can be dangerous, I recommend asking about this when you talk to your DSN.
@helli, I was told before my Hospital discharge to be very aware of the ketone risk from BGs at 15 upwards. Although I rarely need nowadays to check my ketones I conclude my risk is the same as real T1s.
I’m finding it quite difficult to get information online as for type 3c every page seems to contradict the next !!!
I'm afraid that T3c covers quite a few variations of pancreatic damage causing our D. So even though in % terms we are a tiny proportion of the overall D types, our T3c circumstances can be very different in initial symptoms and varied in how each needs BG management.

Our commonality within the T3c diagnosis is principally that we have pancreatic damage, which is not from the autoimmune condition that defines T1 and so our insulin production is hindered by that other panc'y damage. We (mostly) don't have the high levels of insulin resistance that defines T2 (who generally produce ample insulin that their bodies struggles to utilise). Our other commonality is that our panc'y damage is invariably from another ailment.

You, @Bobbingbuoy, have pancreatitis that started your panc'y damage; I had pancreatic cancer which needed my total pancreatectomy; we have a dormant member of the forum who was in an accident that badly physically damaged his pancreas; someone else with damage from alcohol poisoning and others from prescribed steroids for their original ailment that have damaged their panc'ys. We each have come to our D from a different origin and we each have a slightly different perspective about our D. Likewise the Health Care Professionals (HCPs) arrive at a different perspective in how they describe T3c in the articles you can find on the Internet, because there is this quite wide disparity in how each of our smal total nos got to our D.

This also leads to the seemingly random way some of us get CGM prescribed from the outset (often by being diagnosed "as T1" (which clearly we are not) or "as IF T1" (which feels more honest) or really unhelpfully diagnosed as T3c then treated as T2. That latter case results in a T3c being managed by a GP Surgery, (in accordance with the NICE Guidance for T2s). But that Practice is highly unlikely to have the skills or experience to do that properly, yet the GP or Surgery Nurse doesn't realise that the T3c patient needs the specialist skills of a Hospital based Diabetes Team. And those T3c patients are probably unaware that they are being denied the correct treatment and care.

So it is a muddle but the numbers involved are tiny - but increasing slightly as the awareness of T3c as a different type, is now increasing.
I take my novorapid about 10 mins before my food
I sometimes prebolus up to 45 minutes before my food. You might find it helpful to gently experiment by inreasing that 10 mins gradually. The goal here is to get the insulin in your blood stream at the same time as your food gets digested and the carbs get converted into glucose and reach your blood. This is not easy and is more of an art than a bit of science!

Trial and learning is needed, along with some understanding of which meal is going to digest quickly and which less so. Also how physically active you have been in the hours (sometimes a day or more) before that meal. As I said, not easy; but in due course you will acquire an awareness of this complexity in the same way we just inwardly learn how to manage complicated things and end up doing those things almost unthinking. If you drive you can no doubt relate that process to the transition from the first driving lesson to 12 months after passing arriving test.

I have seen @Bobbingbuoy on 22 Feb that your Hospital had prescribed your Libre 2. Do you now have this? CGM makes the management of this complexity a great deal easier (but its still not easy!)
and then Creon for my necrotising pancreatitis about 5 mins before my food.
I might start my Creon a few minutes before, but usually I only take my Creon after my first mouthful of food and then spread steadily out with my food. I think the risk with Creon is that if that first mouthful is delayed the various enzymes are potent and need to have some food to work on. Not an empty stomach.
My diabetes team said it’s enough to take in ( diabetes ) at the start so didn’t want to make it more difficult to absorb with throwing the diet element in too.
That makes some sense - although until the diet element (understanding what food digests quickly for example) (and what foods are high carb that needs you to take extra insulin for) is pretty fundamental to how much you are able to attempt to manage your BG!
I’m just a bit scared now if I keep increasing, of dropping to a very bad low all of a sudden ?
If your insulin increases are steady and in small increments, with decent intervals in between to consolidate each increase and confirm each increase was not excessive - then your fears of dropping to a very bad low should not be realised and certainly not suddenly.
 
Morning BB,
Sounds like you have had a very traumatic time but glad you have found us here and have had some very informative and detailed responses to your questions.
As has been said we are all different with varying needs and insulin requirements depending on how much pancreatic damage you have,any other co morbidities and how our individual body responds and our own specific diet/ exercise regime etc.
Like you I had necrotising pancreatitis but no ICU stay and generally good health.
I was diagnosed with diabetes 7 months ago ( about 18 months after my AP episode) and initially put on 2u of Novorapid and 2u of Lantus( basal) and then adjusted to my current 4u at breakfast/ 4-6u other meals and 6u of basal.
My initial BG levels were in 20s but came down over a period of 4-6 weeks to an average of about 9-10.Since then I have managed to get good time in range within the targeted zone and gradually as I have learned more about managing my condition it as become easier but it can continually surprise you with unexpected responses.
As others have said being 3c you have some distinct challenges but can be managed to live a “ normal” and full life it is just a question of learning how best to manage your condition,
Only advice is don’t be too hard on yourself,but do try and take ownership of it and never be afraid to seek advice here or elsewhere.
BW moving forward
 
I currently take 22 units of basal (long acting insulin) and about 4 units with each meal although it varies depending upon what I am eating. When I was first diagnosed I was on 4 units with each meal and 8 units of basal, but that gradually increased as my beta cells were killed off during the first couple of years. Some people are on really tiny doses and other people will be on more. It really is quite individual but your body weight will have a bearing on it.
Thank you for your response
 
That’s why they do the insulin increases gradually @Bobbingbuoy - in order to avoid hypos. My guess is that you’re not having quite enough Toujeo, but it’s better to increase that gradually for safety reasons.

You don’t need to eat a special or restricted diet (unless the Creon requires it). Your insulin will be titrated upwards gradually. Do you have a Libre?
Thanks, yes I’m getting a Libre 2 on Friday from my diabetes team
 
Morning BB,
Sounds like you have had a very traumatic time but glad you have found us here and have had some very informative and detailed responses to your questions.
As has been said we are all different with varying needs and insulin requirements depending on how much pancreatic damage you have,any other co morbidities and how our individual body responds and our own specific diet/ exercise regime etc.
Like you I had necrotising pancreatitis but no ICU stay and generally good health.
I was diagnosed with diabetes 7 months ago ( about 18 months after my AP episode) and initially put on 2u of Novorapid and 2u of Lantus( basal) and then adjusted to my current 4u at breakfast/ 4-6u other meals and 6u of basal.
My initial BG levels were in 20s but came down over a period of 4-6 weeks to an average of about 9-10.Since then I have managed to get good time in range within the targeted zone and gradually as I have learned more about managing my condition it as become easier but it can continually surprise you with unexpected responses.
As others have said being 3c you have some distinct challenges but can be managed to live a “ normal” and full life it is just a question of learning how best to manage your condition,
Only advice is don’t be too hard on yourself,but do try and take ownership of it and never be afraid to seek advice here or elsewhere.
BW moving forward
That sounds really positive thank you
 
@Bobbingbuoy, with the strong caveat that we are all different, my BGs were anything from low 3s (even some high 2s) to mid 20s after I was discharged from Hospital and my basal was around 14 units of Levermir twice daily plus NovoRapid foor meals. That was for someone with zero pancreas.

But when I switched from Levermir to Tresiba I was started on 15 or 16 units 1x daily (replacing 28 units of Levermir) and that Tresiba has steadily been reducing. Now I'm on only 8.5 units of Tresiba 1 x daily. I would say today's 8.5 units reflects what I actually need, despite no pancreas. So trying to compare what you take currently with others during their early days starting on insulin has very little value - either now or what you might end up taking when you have arrived at a more stable state in due course. Also those guiding your changes are trying to find what you need - because you need what you need.

@helli, I was told before my Hospital discharge to be very aware of the ketone risk from BGs at 15 upwards. Although I rarely need nowadays to check my ketones I conclude my risk is the same as real T1s.

I'm afraid that T3c covers quite a few variations of pancreatic damage causing our D. So even though in % terms we are a tiny proportion of the overall D types, our T3c circumstances can be very different in initial symptoms and varied in how each needs BG management.

Our commonality within the T3c diagnosis is principally that we have pancreatic damage, which is not from the autoimmune condition that defines T1 and so our insulin production is hindered by that other panc'y damage. We (mostly) don't have the high levels of insulin resistance that defines T2 (who generally produce ample insulin that their bodies struggles to utilise). Our other commonality is that our panc'y damage is invariably from another ailment.

You, @Bobbingbuoy, have pancreatitis that started your panc'y damage; I had pancreatic cancer which needed my total pancreatectomy; we have a dormant member of the forum who was in an accident that badly physically damaged his pancreas; someone else with damage from alcohol poisoning and others from prescribed steroids for their original ailment that have damaged their panc'ys. We each have come to our D from a different origin and we each have a slightly different perspective about our D. Likewise the Health Care Professionals (HCPs) arrive at a different perspective in how they describe T3c in the articles you can find on the Internet, because there is this quite wide disparity in how each of our smal total nos got to our D.

This also leads to the seemingly random way some of us get CGM prescribed from the outset (often by being diagnosed "as T1" (which clearly we are not) or "as IF T1" (which feels more honest) or really unhelpfully diagnosed as T3c then treated as T2. That latter case results in a T3c being managed by a GP Surgery, (in accordance with the NICE Guidance for T2s). But that Practice is highly unlikely to have the skills or experience to do that properly, yet the GP or Surgery Nurse doesn't realise that the T3c patient needs the specialist skills of a Hospital based Diabetes Team. And those T3c patients are probably unaware that they are being denied the correct treatment and care.

So it is a muddle but the numbers involved are tiny - but increasing slightly as the awareness of T3c as a different type, is now increasing.

I sometimes prebolus up to 45 minutes before my food. You might find it helpful to gently experiment by inreasing that 10 mins gradually. The goal here is to get the insulin in your blood stream at the same time as your food gets digested and the carbs get converted into glucose and reach your blood. This is not easy and is more of an art than a bit of science!

Trial and learning is needed, along with some understanding of which meal is going to digest quickly and which less so. Also how physically active you have been in the hours (sometimes a day or more) before that meal. As I said, not easy; but in due course you will acquire an awareness of this complexity in the same way we just inwardly learn how to manage complicated things and end up doing those things almost unthinking. If you drive you can no doubt relate that process to the transition from the first driving lesson to 12 months after passing arriving test.

I have seen @Bobbingbuoy on 22 Feb that your Hospital had prescribed your Libre 2. Do you now have this? CGM makes the management of this complexity a great deal easier (but its still not easy!)

I might start my Creon a few minutes before, but usually I only take my Creon after my first mouthful of food and then spread steadily out with my food. I think the risk with Creon is that if that first mouthful is delayed the various enzymes are potent and need to have some food to work on. Not an empty stomach.

That makes some sense - although until the diet element (understanding what food digests quickly for example) (and what foods are high carb that needs you to take extra insulin for) is pretty fundamental to how much you are able to attempt to manage your BG!

If your insulin increases are steady and in small increments, with decent intervals in between to consolidate each increase and confirm each increase was not excessive - then your fears of dropping to a very bad low should not be realised and certainly not suddenly.
Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a brilliant response to me, very interesting and very much appreciated cheers, yes I get my libre 2 next Friday
 
Morning BB,
Sounds like you have had a very traumatic time but glad you have found us here and have had some very informative and detailed responses to your questions.
As has been said we are all different with varying needs and insulin requirements depending on how much pancreatic damage you have,any other co morbidities and how our individual body responds and our own specific diet/ exercise regime etc.
Like you I had necrotising pancreatitis but no ICU stay and generally good health.
I was diagnosed with diabetes 7 months ago ( about 18 months after my AP episode) and initially put on 2u of Novorapid and 2u of Lantus( basal) and then adjusted to my current 4u at breakfast/ 4-6u other meals and 6u of basal.
My initial BG levels were in 20s but came down over a period of 4-6 weeks to an average of about 9-10.Since then I have managed to get good time in range within the targeted zone and gradually as I have learned more about managing my condition it as become easier but it can continually surprise you with unexpected responses.
As others have said being 3c you have some distinct challenges but can be managed to live a “ normal” and full life it is just a question of learning how best to manage your condition,
Only advice is don’t be too hard on yourself,but do try and take ownership of it and never be afraid to seek advice here or elsewhere.
BW moving forward
That’s great to read, thank you for your reply
 
I currently take 22 units of basal (long acting insulin) and about 4 units with each meal although it varies depending upon what I am eating. When I was first diagnosed I was on 4 units with each meal and 8 units of basal, but that gradually increased as my beta cells were killed off during the first couple of years. Some people are on really tiny doses and other people will be on more. It really is quite individual but your body weight will have a bearing on it.
Thank you for your response
 
As you say everybody is different but have you been given any indication of how many carbs you should have for your fixed dose of Novorapid insulin.
It may be that is insufficient for the amount of carbs in your meals.
It is early days so they may be wanting to be conservative with your doses but those do seem quite high levels
There is lots to learn initially and they are likely wanting to keep things simple but you should perhaps ask about making adjustments when levels are high as the insulin often does not work as efficiently or as quickly when your levels are high.
How far in advance of eating do you inject your insulin.
Thanks, I’ve not been given any information yet in relation to carbs etc. I read up quite a bit online and have a rough idea but every so often I hit a stumbling block and a webpage will tell me to do the exact opposite that I’ve previously read ?
 
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