"Honeymoon Period" is no honeymoon

[brassrods]

For those who are in their so-called "honeymoon period" I just want to say that it's been no honeymoon for me. There's a general consensus in the diabetes community that BG is easier to control in this phase because some of the beta cells are still producing insulin. I have been in the honeymoon period for 2 years and battled with unpredictable insulin spurts from my pancreas; as a result, I've had to eat an extremely restricted low carb diet because of insulin sensitivity. I accepted this because I feel lucky to be alive after DKA and understand that sacrifices have to be made, but this is a very difficult phase to manage, esp when you have a constant "expert" in your life who thinks you're an insulin skipper. It's taken me 2 years of strict management and self-care to gain a healthy weight whilst not consuming too much fat and only now am I emerging from my so-called honeymoon. I can now inject more basal and bolus and enjoy more carbs - I'm still going to limit my carb intake to around 50g a day; some days less, some a little more because I think that's the sacrifice we should make in return for the help we receive in the way of clinics and medications. I hope this post helps any "honeymooners" out there. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year x

 

[rebrascora]

Hi Helen

I see you first came to the forum in April but haven't posted much since which is a shame as I found being a regular contributor here has helped me so much.

I am sorry to hear you found the honeymoon period challenging. That is a common experience and none of us understand how the name came about as it wasn't a pleasant experience. A combination of learning the dark art of pancreas impersonation whilst the pancreas is still intermittently and unpredictably chipping in, is tough.

I also see that you started off very low carb but are now finding a better balance which is great. The only thing I would say is don't be frightened of fat. It will provide you with the slow release energy you need, keep you from feeling hungry and help to stabilise your BG. I know the NHS advice is low fat but this is now believed to have been based on a piece of flawed research 70 years ago and unfortunately there has been such a worldwide campaign towards low fat as a result it is almost impossible to turn the advice around... and there is a huge food industry pushing it forward because there is a massive and extremely profitable low fat market that they have been feeding. In fact it is suspected by some that the low fat advice may actually be part of the cause of the obesity and diabetes epidemic we are currently seeing in the western world.... because that natural fat keeps you from feeling hungry because it takes longer to digest. Strip it out and replace it with extra carbs and you feed the carb monster. It is very easy to become addicted to carbs. Fat is self limiting. If you eat too much fat, you feel sick because it is rich.
I now eat quite a high proportion of fat and I have never felt better on a low carb higher fat way of eating. I am running almost every day and I have far more energy and to be honest I feel 30 years younger. I have lost weight and I am down to the body I had in my 20s and that feels really good at 56. And interestingly, whilst my cholesterol is higher than NICE guidelines at 4.8 it has slowly decreased slightly since I started eating more fat and my consultant is extremely happy as my ratios are good and no talk of statins from anyone....Most importantly, I enjoy my food.

Anyway, hope you stick around more this time as there is loads to learn here and a great sense of community. Why not join us every morning on the "Group 7 day waking average" thread where we post our daily fasting reading and have a bit of chat/banter. Don't try reading it from the start as it is a hugely long thread, just jump in tomorrow with your fasting reading and you will soon get the hang of it and get to know us better.

This is it if you are interested...
Group 7-day waking average? | Page 3317 | Diabetes UK

Hope to see you there...

 

[Inka]

@brassrods Sorry you’ve found the honeymoon challenging. I’m not sure where else you’ve been looking but I don’t think many people see the honeymoon as a period where you get better control. We all understand it’s a difficult time because of the random spurts of your own pancreas.

There’s no need to avoid carbs during the honeymoon if you don’t want to. Nor do we have to make a “sacrifice” for our clinics. I’m not sure what you meant by that. Low carb doesn’t guarantee better control. In fact it can cause additional problems like insulin resistance. Insulin is our friend during the honeymoon period as research shows that it helps preserve our remaining beta cells. Tempting as it is to think a special diet can help (been there, done that) insulin has been shown to be the thing that helps most.

Like most Type 1s, I eat a reasonable amount of carbs. Type 1 is an auto-immune condition and not our fault. I understand how easy it is to connect it with food or lifestyle but we don’t need to punish ourselves or introduce ultra-strict regimes. It lives with us - we don’t live with it - and it’s not a ‘punishment’, just bad luck.

There are people who skip insulin and there are far too many people who develop or exacerbate disordered eating.

 

[DaveB]

Hi. My honeymoon period has lasted 5 years or more needing me to inject increasing levels of insulin. I do control my carbs but with a target of 150gm. My weight is very stable with a good BMI (21) so can get away with 150gm carbs. Note that fats are not a problem so eat what you want of both fats and proteins. Eating those will help control the pressure to have more carbs. I think we all find our insulin needs vary often with no logic so the need for frequent testing and correction shots

 

[nonethewiser]

There's a general consensus in the diabetes community that BG is easier to control in this phase because some of the beta cells are still producing insulin.

Not heard that before my friend, period is pain in arse with constant adjustments, no wonder those newly diagnosed get peed off in early stages, frustrating time.

 

[ianf0ster]

@brassrods .............

There’s no need to avoid carbs during the honeymoon if you don’t want to. Nor do we have to make a “sacrifice” for our clinics. I’m not sure what you meant by that. Low carb doesn’t guarantee better control. In fact it can cause additional problems like insulin resistance. Insulin is our friend during the honeymoon period as research shows that it helps preserve our remaining beta cells. Tempting as it is to think a special diet can help (been there, done that) insulin has been shown to be the thing that helps most.
.............................................

I agree that insulin is required for T1's, but find it hard to believe that what you say about low carb is true.
Surely Dr Berstein's Type 1 Grit group has proven over the past few decades that low carb is extremely beneficial for Type 1's.
Also the idea that low carb can cause insulin resistance is just crazy - it is the reverse which is true as thousands of T2's can attest!

 

[brassrods]

Hi Helen

I see you first came to the forum in April but haven't posted much since which is a shame as I found being a regular contributor here has helped me so much.

I am sorry to hear you found the honeymoon period challenging. That is a common experience and none of us understand how the name came about as it wasn't a pleasant experience. A combination of learning the dark art of pancreas impersonation whilst the pancreas is still intermittently and unpredictably chipping in, is tough.

I also see that you started off very low carb but are now finding a better balance which is great. The only thing I would say is don't be frightened of fat. It will provide you with the slow release energy you need, keep you from feeling hungry and help to stabilise your BG. I know the NHS advice is low fat but this is now believed to have been based on a piece of flawed research 70 years ago and unfortunately there has been such a worldwide campaign towards low fat as a result it is almost impossible to turn the advice around... and there is a huge food industry pushing it forward because there is a massive and extremely profitable low fat market that they have been feeding. In fact it is suspected by some that the low fat advice may actually be part of the cause of the obesity and diabetes epidemic we are currently seeing in the western world.... because that natural fat keeps you from feeling hungry because it takes longer to digest. Strip it out and replace it with extra carbs and you feed the carb monster. It is very easy to become addicted to carbs. Fat is self limiting. If you eat too much fat, you feel sick because it is rich.
I now eat quite a high proportion of fat and I have never felt better on a low carb higher fat way of eating. I am running almost every day and I have far more energy and to be honest I feel 30 years younger. I have lost weight and I am down to the body I had in my 20s and that feels really good at 56. And interestingly, whilst my cholesterol is higher than NICE guidelines at 4.8 it has slowly decreased slightly since I started eating more fat and my consultant is extremely happy as my ratios are good and no talk of statins from anyone....Most importantly, I enjoy my food.

Anyway, hope you stick around more this time as there is loads to learn here and a great sense of community. Why not join us every morning on the "Group 7 day waking average" thread where we post our daily fasting reading and have a bit of chat/banter. Don't try reading it from the start as it is a hugely long thread, just jump in tomorrow with your fasting reading and you will soon get the hang of it and get to know us better.

This is it if you are interested...
Group 7-day waking average? | Page 3317 | Diabetes UK

Hope to see you there...

Many thanks for your reply and great feedback! I think the forum's fantastic but until now I just haven't had the time to dip into it. I really enjoyed reading about your experience and the changes in your life, so thank you for taking the time to share this - I'll check out Group 7 after New Year and join in. Btw, I fat-adapted about a year ago and that's my fuel source (for long-distance running and aerobics too!), but in the honeymoon period I was on 1/2 units mainly for gluconeogenesis and this has suddenly changed. I do find the science of it all very exciting and I'm still learning a lot every day so will look forward to joining Group 7 in the NY. Thank you again most kindly

 

[Inka]

I agree that insulin is required for T1's, but find it hard to believe that what you say about low carb is true.
Surely Dr Berstein's Type 1 Grit group has proven over the past few decades that low carb is extremely beneficial for Type 1's.
Also the idea that low carb can cause insulin resistance is just crazy - it is the reverse which is true as thousands of T2's can attest!

I’ll say nothing about Type 1 Grit because I have every sympathy with desperate parents...But Dr B has complete hypo unawareness and that is not something to aim for because it’s dangerous.

There is no evidence very low carb is “extremely beneficial” for Type 1s at all. Most of the Type 1s I know in real life have equal or better control than the obsessive low carbers, better hypo awareness and better life satisfaction.

No, the idea isn’t “crazy” at all. It’s a well-known physiological phenomenon. Very low carb/keto causes insulin resistance. Fact. If you think about it, rather than being “crazy”, it makes sense. The body holds on to glucose by increasing insulin resistance because it thinks there’s a famine and has switched to a ‘famine system’ of preservation (ketosis).

On an anecdotal level, I know a number of relapsed T1 keto fans. They relapsed because they realised they’d messed up their insulin sensitivity. Type 1 is hard enough without developing insulin resistance on top of everything else.

People can choose to eat what they want, but the idea that keto is the best diet for Type 1 is wrong, and many people have been misled by it. That’s quite apart from any health benefits of unprocessed/healthy carbs and other health issues.

 

[brassrods]

I agree that insulin is required for T1's, but find it hard to believe that what you say about low carb is true.
Surely Dr Berstein's Type 1 Grit group has proven over the past few decades that low carb is extremely beneficial for Type 1's.
Also the idea that low carb can cause insulin resistance is just crazy - it is the reverse which is true as thousands of T2's can attest!

Oh I'm so glad I just caught your post before signing-off - I read Dr Bernstein's book within a week of being diagnosed & learnt so much about how we can activate GLUT receptors without insulin and the Law of Small Numbers, thus avoiding life-threatening lows (esp during sleep at night) and life-shortening highs. I'd never want to offend anyone, but I do believe we have a responsibility to reduce our carb intake. Thank you!

 

[brassrods]

I’ll say nothing about Type 1 Grit because I have every sympathy with desperate parents...But Dr B has complete hypo unawareness and that is not something to aim for because it’s dangerous.

There is no evidence very low carb is “extremely beneficial” for Type 1s at all. Most of the Type 1s I know in real life have equal or better control than the obsessive low carbers, better hypo awareness and better life satisfaction.

No, the idea isn’t “crazy” at all. It’s a well-known physiological phenomenon. Very low carb/keto causes insulin resistance. Fact. If you think about it, rather than being “crazy”, it makes sense. The body holds on to glucose by increasing insulin resistance because it thinks there’s a famine and has switched to a ‘famine system’ of preservation (ketosis).

On an anecdotal level, I know a number of relapsed T1 keto fans. They relapsed because they realised they’d messed up their insulin sensitivity. Type 1 is hard enough without developing insulin resistance on top of everything else.

People can choose to eat what they want, but the idea that keto is the best diet for Type 1 is wrong, and many people have been misled by it. That’s quite apart from any health benefits of unprocessed/healthy carbs and other health issues.

 

[brassrods]

Hi Inka, I've enjoyed reading your post, thank you. There's certainly much to be taken from every response which goes to show how different the experience of diabetes can be for each individual. The main thing that Dr B advocates is The Law of Small Numbers and exercise as a way of activating glucose receptors in harmony with a basal and bolus regime. He is not a supporter of the keto lifestyle for the same biological and psychological reasons you've explained above. I think the world of diabetes and low(er) carb/keto/paleo is going through a transitional period and each school will find a happy balance, hopefully in the not too distant future - the learning process is so interesting and I think we can all cherry-pick from each experience and opinion and use it for trial and error on our own journeys. I just wanted to post about the honeymoon period because I couldn't find much out there about it when I was on my own journey. The term 'honeymoon period' refers to a "holiday" or an easy period before the going gets tough and I don't think it's an appropriate analogy. I'm not a fan of the keto diet, but I do think that we have a responsibility to lower our carb intake (even if that means 3 potatoes instead of 4) when that's the source of hiking BG and therefore injecting insulin - The Law of Small Numbers doesn't = Keto.

 

[rebrascora]

The things you say about Dr Bernstein's regime are interesting because I have not followed any of his work but the things you have just mentioned very much tie in with what I am discovering with my own body and the general ethos fits with my thinking.
All I know is that I feel 30 years younger now as a result of changing my diet and exercise. My body feels strong and even my teeth seem stronger. I was constantly chipping them and they would be sore when I chewed on something hard and since I went low carb (even though my regular guilty pleasure is pork scratchings) I haven't chipped a tooth since before my diagnosis and no more discomfort when I chew on hard things.... in fact I relish crunchy foods now more than ever. I would love to have had a bone density scan before and after as I really feel there has been a change but obviously all I can do is say what I feel, which I am aware is very unscientific.

 

[Inka]

Oh I'm so glad I just caught your post before signing-off - I read Dr Bernstein's book within a week of being diagnosed & learnt so much about how we can activate GLUT receptors without insulin and the Law of Small Numbers, thus avoiding life-threatening lows (esp during sleep at night) and life-shortening highs. I'd never want to offend anyone, but I do believe we have a responsibility to reduce our carb intake. Thank you!

Hi Inka, I've enjoyed reading your post, thank you. There's certainly much to be taken from every response which goes to show how different the experience of diabetes can be for each individual. The main thing that Dr B advocates is The Law of Small Numbers and exercise as a way of activating glucose receptors in harmony with a basal and bolus regime. He is not a supporter of the keto lifestyle for the same biological and psychological reasons you've explained above. I think the world of diabetes and low(er) carb/keto/paleo is going through a transitional period and each school will find a happy balance, hopefully in the not too distant future - the learning process is so interesting and I think we can all cherry-pick from each experience and opinion and use it for trial and error on our own journeys. I just wanted to post about the honeymoon period because I couldn't find much out there about it when I was on my own journey. The term 'honeymoon period' refers to a "holiday" or an easy period before the going gets tough and I don't think it's an appropriate analogy. I'm not a fan of the keto diet, but I do think that we have a responsibility to lower our carb intake (even if that means 3 potatoes instead of 4) when that's the source of hiking BG and therefore injecting insulin - The Law of Small Numbers doesn't = Keto.

Thank you for your considered reply @brassrods I apologise if I sounded a bit fierce. I feel strongly about some of the fad diets and associated eating disorders, and the way some websites promise false hope to the newly diagnosed.

I’ve read Dr B’s book years ago and again recently. I’ve had Type 1 almost 30 years and I’ve tried a lot of diets over those years. There is no magic diet or one size fits all. Ultra strict diets aren’t necessary, and by that I mean aiming for very low carb amounts and/or a very low average blood glucose (which is what I presume led to Dr B’s hypo unawareness).

Dr B wasn’t/isn’t a fan of insulin pumps, but it’s my pump that’s made me feel normal and the thing I value most.

Yes, the honeymoon period is a daft name - and I doubt many would disagree with you there! Not sure what a better name would be though. Maybe we should think of one!

 

[AJLang]

I'm not a fan of the keto diet, but I do think that we have a responsibility to lower our carb intake (even if that means 3 potatoes instead of 4) when that's the source of hiking BG and therefore injecting insulin - The Law of Small Numbers doesn't = Keto.

why should we have a responsibility for lowering our carb intake so we have less insulin? I have a huge concern that the dietary advice about carbs being too low and hence be replaced by fat/protein has the potential to have a negative effect on diabetic kidney function - just my view, I don’t want to get into a debate about it. All I know is that after 50 years (less four months) of Diabetes my kidney function excellent. Type 1 Diabetes is a balancing game and I am very concerned by comments such as yours which have the potential to make diabetics feel guilty about how many carbs they have. If it works for you, and others brilliant, but please don’t preach that it is the only way. Guilt about the insulin/carbohydrate balance can lead some diabetics to have life changing and life ending eating problems.

 

[AJLang]

i posted before I saw Inka’s reply.

 

[Inka]

i posted before I saw Inka’s reply.

My reply seems to have got a bit mangled up anyway. I agree about the kidney fear as well. A balanced diet is best IMO, and while eating vast shedloads of carbs in one go isn’t ideal, the aim of diet/insulin is to stay in range not to eat minimal carbs. There are a number of people with Type 1 eating higher carb vegan diet and doing very well.

Carbs need to be in our minds but they shouldn’t be demonised.

 

[brassrods]

The things you say about Dr Bernstein's regime are interesting because I have not followed any of his work but the things you have just mentioned very much tie in with what I am discovering with my own body and the general ethos fits with my thinking.
All I know is that I feel 30 years younger now as a result of changing my diet and exercise. My body feels strong and even my teeth seem stronger. I was constantly chipping them and they would be sore when I chewed on something hard and since I went low carb (even though my regular guilty pleasure is pork scratchings) I haven't chipped a tooth since before my diagnosis and no more discomfort when I chew on hard things.... in fact I relish crunchy foods now more than ever. I would love to have had a bone density scan before and after as I really feel there has been a change but obviously all I can do is say what I feel, which I am aware is very unscientific.

We have been on exactly the same path with the same realisation of bone density recovery etc (crumbling teeth, painful knee cartlidge, aching hip etc). This too is in Dr. B's books and the medical community is now taking seriously the relationship between the standard american diet (SAD) as advocated by the American Diabetes Association (ADA) and osteoporosis and other diseases. Most of these complications can be reversed by following his regime or a low/lower carb diet. He is the physician responsible for the basal and bolus regime and advancement in the BG monitor, but he never gets the recognition he deserves. He was basically booed off stage by his piers during presentations in the 60s about the relationship between the SAD diet and high blood sugar - I'm surprised a film hasn't been made about him yet. His books are written for folk like me and you with a little necessary science thrown-in in a friendly way. Have you tried SLIMS multigrain pops? They're a fantastic crunch (3.2 carbs) and lovely with loads of different toppings or even with a wee bit of butter. You can buy them in Home Bargains.

 

[brassrods]

I'm not a fan of the keto diet, but I do think that we have a responsibility to lower our carb intake (even if that means 3 potatoes instead of 4) when that's the source of hiking BG and therefore injecting insulin - The Law of Small Numbers doesn't = Keto.

why should we have a responsibility for lowering our carb intake so we have less insulin? I have a huge concern that the dietary advice about carbs being too low and hence be replaced by fat/protein has the potential to have a negative effect on diabetic kidney function - just my view, I don’t want to get into a debate about it. All I know is that after 50 years (less four months) of Diabetes my kidney function excellent. Type 1 Diabetes is a balancing game and I am very concerned by comments such as yours which have the potential to make diabetics feel guilty about how many carbs they have. If it works for you, and others brilliant, but please don’t preach that it is the only way. Guilt about the insulin/carbohydrate balance can lead some diabetics to have life changing and life ending eating problems.

Actually yes you're right it does come across as preaching, sorry about that.

 

[SB2015]

For those who are in their so-called "honeymoon period" I just want to say that it's been no honeymoon for me. There's a general consensus in the diabetes community that BG is easier to control in this phase because some of the beta cells are still producing insulin.

I so agree with you @brassrods . It drove me bonkers, as my pancreas gave me no warning when it fancied playing for a while!! It was so unpredictable. I had a c-pepetide test this year and I am still producing a tiny tiny amount of insulin. I think my pancreas has hung on to them just to keep me on my toes!!

 

[nonethewiser]

The term 'honeymoon period' refers to a "holiday" or an easy period before the going gets tough and I don't think it's an appropriate analogy.

Only words mate, don't fret about small things in life, in bigger picture of things it don't matter what term is used or how people see it.

Dr B wasn’t/isn’t a fan of insulin pumps, but it’s my pump that’s made me feel normal and the thing I value most.

Here here Inka. Switching to pump was one decision I will never regret, bg control improved greatly after doing so, same goes for Libre, life changing.