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Help to work out ratios

Ali11782

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Going to spend time checking my ratios.
Can anyone give me their thoughts or helps whilst I do it.

Breakfast
At 9.50am I was at 4.1. I ate one jelly baby As arrow pointing gradually down and took 3 units. At 10.05 I ate 33g carbs, a slice of toast and jam
Two hours later I was 8.1.

Any thoughts?
 

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Are you sure your basal dose is correct @Ali11782 ? That’s the first thing to check. If you’re sure it is, then you can look at your ratios. Are you sure the carbs are right for your slice of toast? That seems a lot unless it was a thick slice.
 
18g for the toast, 10g for the jam. And I counted the one jelly baby which mayb I didn't need to but would still have take 3 for 1 to 10 ratio x
 
@ink my basal appears brilliant some days and other not it depends on whether I've walked or not. But mostly it's stable. Take 28 tresiba x
 
18g for the toast, 10g for the jam. And I counted the one jelly baby which mayb I didn't need to but would still have take 3 for 1 to 10 ratio x

The jelly baby was to push your blood sugar up a tiny bit so you didn’t have to count that 🙂 Unless you’re having loads of jam,I wouldn’t bothered to have counted that either, although I might have added on a couple of grams to make the carbs 20g (for ease of Maths!).

To me, it sounds like you’re over-counting your carbs and that will make your actual ratios harder to work out. Many people have different ratios for breakfast, lunch and evening meal.

An easy way to work out ratios is to have the same breakfast every day and see what dose of insulin and what bolus time works. As an example, I almost always have a certain gluten free cereal for breakfast and I know the dose that works for that. I found that through experimenting, both with amount and timing. I also tweak it if I wake up high or have a busy morning ahead.
 
That overnight graph makes me wonder if your basal dose is right too. Had you taken a correction during the night to drop you so much at 6am?
 
You are looking for your bolus insulin to have brought you back to your premeal level when that insulin runs out which is usually about 4 hours although I use Fiasp which tends to be finished working in 3hours for me, so the 2 hour post meal reading isn't really relevant for those of us using insulin because our insulin is a lot slower than endogenous insulin.

We are all different and I would have to count jam if I had it, but it depends how much you have. If you had 10g worth of carbs in the form of jam then yes you would need to count it, but that would be about 2 heaped teaspoons on a single slice of toast. Some people just have the tiniest scrape of jam which probably wouldn't need counting and others like it spread generously and definitely would need to count it.

I would say, if you level out at high 5s-mid 6s by 4 hours after your toast then you probably got your bolus right. As said, I would not count the JB because that is correcting a low. 1JB would probably raise my levels about 1.5 mmols, so it would take me up from 4.1 to mid 5s, so my breakfast bolus calculation would not include the JB and should return me to mid 5s if it is correct.
 
Hi @Ali11782 Sorry if I have missed this in earlier discussions but do you have a half unit pen. This can be so beneficial, when on injections, both for basal and bolus.

You mention that your basal seems good unless you have done some exercise/walking. That was one reason I split my basal so that I could adjust a day time dose to account for a more active day without adjusting the night time dose, but I am not sure whether that works with Tresiba. I was in Levemir for this very purpose but that is being discontinued.

The advice for T2s to be close to where they started after two hours, can work because they are using their own insulin made by them. With T1 and our injected stuff, whichever insulin it is, it can take a bit longer to get back in range. When on injections I was only testing pre meal and for hypos (the days before sensors).
 
With Tresiba, I firmly believe the more traditional basal thinking process needs a different mindset. Tresiba needs a minimum of 2, much better 3, days for any change in dose to take effect. It has a very long lasting profile, typically 40 hrs, so today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose.

Our basal needs are constantly changing throughout any 24 hr period. So there is a very valid school of thought that taking such a long lasting and seemingly inflexible basal is in contradiction to basal needs. But unless you are able to alter your basal doses hr by hr (which is what people with pumps do) then that apparent contradiction is not so valid. For you ladies with varying hormonal behaviour across a single month, there is a stronger case for not taking Tresiba at all, but rather a much shorter lasting basal, to allow you to alter your basal as any month progresses. But this does mean you have to be very alert to basal needs and adjusting, say Levermir (which is one of the shorter lasting basals) very frequently and that can add to the relentless pressure of close monitoring one's BG and doing something about one's BG often.

So my mindset for Tresiba is to find the optimum dose per day and then leave it alone, for much of the year. As today's spring weather is mimicking summer, I have already adjusted my Tresiba down (from winter 9 to now 8 and this week I'm assessing whether to now go to last year's summer dose of 7.5. Incidentally, don't get distracted by my needs being in single figures daily and yours is currently 28. We are all different and for whatever reason 7.5 - 9 works for me; I presume my natural insulin resistance is lower than some other people, so I need less basal.

I work on the basis that during my late evenings and night time my basal needs are noticeably very even - even if I go to bed a bit higher than I'd like and I choose to take a small correcting bolus; I see that correcting fall over the next 4 hrs, then a steady lower BG - provided by my Tresiba.

So I just look at my overnight graph each morning and if my going to bed reading is about the same as waking up then my Tresiba dose is about right. If I start high and end high, my Tresiba is doing what I expect and I either take a small correction last thing, or on waking OR use exercise/activity to help nudge me down OR (rarely) less food to encourage a tweak down. If I start high and end up noticeably lower, a few nights in a row (after allowing for any bolus corrections, late night parties, or just broken sleep) - then I'll cautiously adjust my Tresiba as necessary.

This does give me one big advantage that I appreciate: I don't need to think very critically about my basal. It's there, doing what is needed by night and whatever it brings to my daytime party is what it is. I can't change that, so I don't try to change that; I don't even think about it. While I'm awake I manage my BG by bolus insulin for food or corrections, OR exercise and activity. This doesn't mean that I don't need to keep track of how active I was yesterday, today or might be tomorrow. Nor what the weather is doing, whether I'm out of kilter from a cold or similar, or experiencing excessive stress and hassle from something; there are many other factors that can affect our BG - I can only mitigate for those if I realise I've bumped into one of those other factors.

Something that caught my attention:
Breakfast
At 9.50am I was at 4.1. I ate one jelly baby As arrow pointing gradually down and took 3 units. At 10.05 I ate 33g carbs, a slice of toast and jam
Two hours later I was 8.1.
Your one jelly baby as a modest "nudge" to intercept a falling BG is fine. At 4.1, I might have been tempted to take 2 JBs. But I would not have then promptly taken any bolus. I find when my BG is low, my insulin resistance is very mild, my response to insulin is very prompt - even though it's breakfast time and you might effectively "dilute" the benefit of that JB. Indeed your toast and jam so close to that JB was also diluting the benefit of that potential rapid response to that JB. I find these are moments when I have to hold myself in check, wait for the potential hypo treatment to take effect before doing anything else. I do have the advantage of having no responsibility for looking after anyone else at such moments. I certainly would not include any bolus for that JB; indeed I never consider bolus for any carbs when so very low as 4.1.

Your recovery to 8.1 2hrs later would be fine for me, under the circumstances - you are in range. We know too little about how busy you were yesterday (so nothing about any effects of exercise and activity; nothing about what was going on before your toast - not just actuvity but how rushed or harased you kight have been, etc, so whether a stressful or very relaxed start to your day.

I'm reluctant to draw too much conclusion from your graph. I'd need to know what your BG was at 11pm the night before. But there seems to be insulin taken at c.0530 while you were in the 12s and so the fall to 4.1 suggests that early insulin might have been too much if it was bolus. I'd struggle to believe it was Tresiba at 0530 producing that dramatic change on its own - it's release profile is very, very steady taking effect some 2 hrs after injecting.

I certainly agree with half-unit pens in principle, but for a 28 unit dose the half-units are not really justifiable. They certainly are for a 3 unit bolus dose. That thought attracts me to wonder what proportion of your total daily dose is for bolus, day by day.
@ink my basal appears brilliant some days and other not it depends on whether I've walked or not. But mostly it's stable. Take 28 tresiba x
Perhaps you could explain what effect your walking is having on your BG (ie is the walking reducing your BG stability and whether you are aware if yesterday's walk is carrying over into today, with a consequential sting in its tail of pushing your BG down today. Do you walk most days and typically for how long in time or how far? Is there a push-chair involved, hence extra exercise? Do you apply a reduction factor to your bolus calculation because of exercise? I've been in the garden most of the last week and my bolus has needed to be halved, plus snacks to counter gentle falls.
 
Good Morning.
Here is my overnight graph.
I had taken insulin before bed because I was high obviously too much
 

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Hi, @Ali11782, sorry but I have some questions:

1. How much insulin before bed, exactly which insulin and what time was that?

2. Your graph shows you dipping low at midnight and sitting low for c. 2+ hrs then a steady recovery until your screen shot at 0538. Did you treat that low at all? If so how much carbs and if more than one treat, how often?

3. Out of curiosity did your Libre alarm alert you to that low?

4. What did you do after posting at 0542? Any correction or just take note and go back to sleep.

About your Tresiba

From reading early posts in mid '21 you were on Levermir, with quite modest doses twice daily. When did you change to Tresiba? My experience was that my total daily Tresiba was decreased a bit from my total daily Levermir and I have steadily further decreased it since '21 to today's level. I've read this has been the experience of a few other Tresiba users; we are all different, so I'm not trying to interpolate from a small sample to arrive at a wrong conclusion for you. But I am starting to wonder if your Tresiba dose is too much.

If it is, it might explain why you are bobbing down and up. BUT personally I would not draw any true conclusion without knowing what other insulin doses and carbs have been in the mix. Hence my questions above.
 
Hi, @Ali11782, sorry but I have some questions:

1. How much insulin before bed, exactly which insulin and what time was that?

2. Your graph shows you dipping low at midnight and sitting low for c. 2+ hrs then a steady recovery until your screen shot at 0538. Did you treat that low at all? If so how much carbs and if more than one treat, how often?

3. Out of curiosity did your Libre alarm alert you to that low?

4. What did you do after posting at 0542? Any correction or just take note and go back to sleep.

About your Tresiba

From reading early posts in mid '21 you were on Levermir, with quite modest doses twice daily. When did you change to Tresiba? My experience was that my total daily Tresiba was decreased a bit from my total daily Levermir and I have steadily further decreased it since '21 to today's level. I've read this has been the experience of a few other Tresiba users; we are all different, so I'm not trying to interpolate from a small sample to arrive at a wrong conclusion for you. But I am starting to wonder if your Tresiba dose is too much.

If it is, it might explain why you are bobbing down and up. BUT personally I would not draw any true conclusion without knowing what other insulin doses and carbs have been in the mix. Hence my questions above.
Thank you so much for your reply.
Ok so first thing to note is my binge eating and not taking insulin. I am better than I've ever been after horrendous thrush last year...gave me a kick up the backside I needed..
But yesterday I did binge eat and landed up Hi. At 19:12 I took 13 units. Random amount no thinking just hoping for the best.
I didn't treat the low as wasn't alerted to it.
Libre is set to 4.5
I woke up at 5, took 2 units at 5.30 to prevent foot to floor.
I was on levemir but I would omit evening dose so tresiba meant I would always take my background.
I really need help to.get myself back on.track. I want so.badly to be in control.
Tried diabetes psychology, didn't help.
 
Try BEAT @Ali11782 :


Binge eating can be a vicious circle, even more so when you’re on insulin because the ups and downs are magnified and those very ups and downs can make you more likely to binge. Then your blood sugar goes up and down making you more likely……you get the idea. Those swings not only have a physical effect, they also have an effect on your brain. If you can control the binging a little, you’ll find each next step easier because your brain and body are more stable. Knowing that - the mechanism - should help you treat it as a more objective thing rather than part of you.

As you can see, your binging is probably a big part of the blood sugar/insulin problems. The high sugars in the evening mess up your night. I also wonder, like @Proud to be erratic , if your basal is too high. Because of your eating issues, do not do a basal test. You’ll still be able to work things out once you get a grip on the binging.

You could try adding some protein to your breakfast and/or changing it entirely. Can I ask what you have for lunch and evening meal?
 
Try BEAT @Ali11782 :


Binge eating can be a vicious circle, even more so when you’re on insulin because the ups and downs are magnified and those very ups and downs can make you more likely to binge. Then your blood sugar goes up and down making you more likely……you get the idea. Those swings not only have a physical effect, they also have an effect on your brain. If you can control the binging a little, you’ll find each next step easier because your brain and body are more stable. Knowing that - the mechanism - should help you treat it as a more objective thing rather than part of you.

As you can see, your binging is probably a big part of the blood sugar/insulin problems. The high sugars in the evening mess up your night. I also wonder, like @Proud to be erratic , if your basal is too high. Because of your eating issues, do not do a basal test. You’ll still be able to work things out once you get a grip on the binging.

You could try adding some protein to your breakfast and/or changing it entirely. Can I ask what you have for lunch and evening meal?
So breakfast i tend to have a banana about 9.
I don't tend to take insulin for it if 6 or below.
Lunch four corn cakes, 200g cottage cheese, 250g cherry tom, two satsumas, pot of yeo valley greek yog and honey.
Then late afternoon the binge starts and idon't manage sugars.
Feel I need a buddy to just get me back on track. Feel so alone
 
As someone who used to binge eat and very occasionally still loses control although to a much lesser extent and that is partly because I have to inject insulin for whatever I binge on, I know that it is tough to overcome, but can you explain why you don't inject insulin for whatever you binge on and could you possibly start injecting for it? Going "HI" and then coming crashing down is really stressful for your body and can lead to long term complications so injecting the insulin to prevent that is really important. I appreciate that when a binge starts you don't know where it will end ie. how much insulin you are going to need because you keep hoping you are going to regain control and this will be the last thing you will eat, but you really need to (roughly) carb count and inject for each item and log it on your Libre log, so you can keep track of when the last injection was and know that insulin has 4 or maybe 5 hours to run when the binge does end. By the time I have jabbed 5 or 6 times in an hour or two, the idea of continuing to binge loses it's appeal, so it can help me to manage it.

Jabbing a large guessed correction just before bed is really dangerous, so you are far better to jab as you go with your binging. In reality it is not dissimilar to going out for a meal and jabbing separately for your starter, then the main course and then dessert. You just jab each time for what you are about to eat. This is not considered stacking because they are not corrections, just boluses for each course or in the case of binge eating, each extra item you reach for.
For me, going low carb has helped enormously with the binge eating and it very rarely happens now and usually when I have eaten more carbs for one reason or another, that triggers it, so if I can keep low carb it makes it so much easier for me and it has improved so many other aspects of my health.
 
If you can regularly eat a banana at breakfast time without bolus then to me that suggests that your basal is too high as that is 15-20g carbs your basal must be mopping up..... unless this is after exercise and your muscles/liver are replenishing their stores?
 
As someone who used to binge eat and very occasionally still loses control although to a much lesser extent and that is partly because I have to inject insulin for whatever I binge on, I know that it is tough to overcome, but can you explain why you don't inject insulin for whatever you binge on and could you possibly start injecting for it? Going "HI" and then coming crashing down is really stressful for your body and can lead to long term complications so injecting the insulin to prevent that is really important. I appreciate that when a binge starts you don't know where it will end ie. how much insulin you are going to need because you keep hoping you are going to regain control and this will be the last thing you will eat, but you really need to (roughly) carb count and inject for each item and log it on your Libre log, so you can keep track of when the last injection was and know that insulin has 4 or maybe 5 hours to run when the binge does end. By the time I have jabbed 5 or 6 times in an hour or two, the idea of continuing to binge loses it's appeal, so it can help me to manage it.

Jabbing a large guessed correction just before bed is really dangerous, so you are far better to jab as you go with your binging. In reality it is not dissimilar to going out for a meal and jabbing separately for your starter, then the main course and then dessert. You just jab each time for what you are about to eat. This is not considered stacking because they are not corrections, just boluses for each course or in the case of binge eating, each extra item you reach for.
For me, going low carb has helped enormously with the binge eating and it very rarely happens now and usually when I have eaten more carbs for one reason or another, that triggers it, so if I can keep low carb it makes it so much easier for me and it has improved so many other aspects of my health.
I have put on so much weight mucking about with food and insulin I won't take insulin for binge. Plus I also like that feeling of HI, feeling I need to drink loads to make me pee. It's not nice really but it gives me something mentally.

I fear not managing my sugars, so it is easier to let it be high.
I feel like a failure when I do it properly and it goes high or low.

It's almost easier to not manage it.

If any of that makes sense
 
If you can regularly eat a banana at breakfast time without bolus then to me that suggests that your basal is too high as that is 15-20g carbs your basal must be mopping up..... unless this is after exercise and your muscles/liver are replenishing their stores?
Ok perhaps I need to test this for a few days..
Today i will be slow walking at 1030.
 
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