Hello! High carb here!!

Status
Not open for further replies.
I’m all in favour of people sharing different approaches that have worked for them.

We have a lot of folks here for whom low carb has been a very effective strategy, but we also have members who have tried low carb and it simply didn’t work for them. They didn’t get the results they expected.

And we also have members for whom the high carb / low fat diet they were advised was a disaster.

So having people post who have found different methods work for them is great as far as I am concerned.

“Have diabetes? BGs not behaving? Try this… No good? Well no problem, you can try this, this, or this too!” 🙂
 
Thanks for that @Inka. I wonder what the mechanism is and whether that would help distinguish between those for whom it is a useful approach and for those whom it is not.

I did read a bit of the science but it was too detailed for me @Docb but this is my (unscientific) précis: insulin resistance is caused by excess dietary fat, particularly saturated fat. This fat clogs the body/liver/muscles causing metabolic dysfunction. So then the body can’t properly deal with carbs, but the problem isn’t the carbs, it’s the fat clogging up the system. Removing that fat is the answer, and then you can improve/cure the insulin resistance. Animal fat is a particular problem.

There are a number of proponents of a very low fat plant-based diet, including Cyrus Khambatta who’s Type 1. Obviously he can’t cure his Type 1 but he explains how he went from eating a low carb diet of 125g a day, which included animal products, to a low-fat plant-based diet which had 650g carbs (not a typo). So, approximately a fivefold increase in carbs. Logic says his insulin doses would also increase by a similar amount BUT they actually decreased by 40%! That’s amazing.

Online, eg the Forks Over Knives website, you can find testimonials from Type 2s who’ve also greatly improved their insulin sensitivity/lost weight, eg:


Cyrus Khambatta, Doug Graham, Neal Barnard, Michael Greger, Joel Fuhrman, Rip Esselstyn and the whole Esselstyn family basically, are some of the proponents. Dr Caldwell Esselstyn works at the Cleveland Clinic and uses a very low fat plant-based diet to help (and reverse) heart disease. All very interesting to have a look at. All the people I’ve mentioned are American so there’s a bit of a style difference and sometimes a more showy style to their talks, but I look at the content of what they say.

I’m Type 1 so I can only come at it from that angle, but I reduced my insulin by 25% during my few weeks of very low fat plant based eating. What would that mean for a Type 2? I guess it depends on the individual, but it’s another possible tool that people can investigate, consider and trial if they wish to do so. I think we should all inform ourselves and then make our own choices 🙂
 
@Inka, My first look - I.e googling the obvious - turned up a couple of web sites, one of which referred to some of the names you mentioned, was not promising. Lots of words which sounded right until you began to pick them apart. Once you had removed the flamboyant guff and ignored all the pop up windows trying to sell you stuff, what was left seemed to be a load of assertions not backed by any convincing logic.

The thesis seemed be that you could loose weight by reducing calorie intake by reducing fat consumption to very low levels. You could then consume more carb and providing the calories associated with those carbs were less than those lost by the low fat consumption, you will still have a net calorie reduction and retain the potential for weight reduction. So far so good.

They then wander off into the notion that reducing fat in the diet reduces fat around the body generally. This reduces "insulin resistance" and because of this the system can tolerate much higher carb intake. This is the bit that seems odd to me but my limited knowledge of the subject means cannot put my finger on why. Just got a feeling in my water that there is something wrong and maybe it is the idea that dietary fat ends up as visceral fat. I can see that excess calories will end up as body fat but cannot see why calories from dietary fat are any different to any other calories. I would be delighted if anybody could educate me if I am missing something.

To me, the message is that if you are overweight and have poor blood glucose control then losing the excess weight is a pretty good bet when it comes to regaining blood glucose control. Maybe not as good a bet as betting on an election date when you know when the election is going to be to it is, but a good bet none the less.

Quite how you go about losing that weight is up to you. There are many ways of going about it and there are many out there trying to persuade you that their way is perfect for you. Look at them all until you find one that you think will work for you. Most of them have calorie intake reduction at their core and so have some merit but the tricky bit is sticking with whatever you choose because perseverance it the key - you will not get overnight success with any of them.
 
You’re quite right about the showy American style @Docb It’s a whole different style which, yes, can be a bit jarring to start with. Yes, you can pay for a Meal Planner from Forks Over Knives but there are lots of free recipes there too. Likewise the Dan Buettner website and others. Many websites have pop ups encouraging you to subscribe, etc, both in the U.K. and US.

If you want to go down a rabbit hole, take a look at all the related stuff. The Forks Over Knives film and the What The Health film, the Engine 2 Diet (Rip Esselstyn - yes, his first name is really Rip), How Not To Die book, the Blue Zones and Dan Buettner books and websites and more.

Yes, it’s weight loss but as I understand it, what they’re saying is that the saturated fat increases insulin resistance. Michael Greger has some videos on it and there’s a transcripted podcast from Cyrus Khambatta with a fair bit of detail. I can’t comment on the science because I’m not a scientist but the diet does work to decrease insulin resistance. They compare it with the keto diet which, they say, doesn’t solve the actual problem of insulin resistance.

Here are some videos from Michael Greger (his website is Nutrition Facts and has loads of videos on it):



And an edited (because they chat) section from the transcript of a podcast with Cyrus Khambatta. Again, lots of chatty Americanness because it’s a podcast but I extracted some explanation:

Let's go back to 2007, when I first began my graduate degree. My professor at the time said, "Cyrus, I'm going to give you a project for the next five years. And the project is to understand every single aspect of insulin resistance. I want you to learn what causes it, how to induce it in laboratory mice and in laboratory rats, and then how you can rescue insulin sensitivity using either intermittent fasting, calorie restriction or movement." So this is a really fascinating topic, and there's a thousand different rabbit holes that you can get caught in. My first homework assignment was to try and figure out how do I create insulin resistance in laboratory mice and laboratory rats? What am I going to do? And what my head was saying is just feed them a diet that's got a lot of sugar in it, Cyrus.
Feed them either artificial sweeteners or fructose or high fructose corn syrup. And when I looked into the research to try and figure out how insulin resistance was induced in laboratory animals, the answer was totally different. The answer was very different. The answer was feed them a diet that is high in saturated fat, for a minimum of eight weeks. If you do that, animals will become insulin resistant. And it's very, very repeatable, extremely easy to measure, extremely easy to perform.
So here's how this works. Fat in food is locked up in a molecule known as triglyceride. Triglyceride is just the storage form of fatty acids inside of mammals, and inside of fruits and vegetables and plant material. So triglyceride is how fat exists primarily in the natural world. If you consume triglyceride inside of a food that contains a significant amount of fat, like let's say you're consuming red meat, or you consume cheese, or maybe even an avocado, or maybe you have some olive oil. All of those foods tend to be fat rich, and they contain triglycerides. So you consume the triglyceride, it travels into your mouth, it goes down your esophagus, it gets inside of your stomach. Inside of your stomach is an acid chamber, where the walls of your stomach are secreting hydrochloric acid into the lumen, and they're basically using that as a mechanism to try and get access to the food and start to unfold it.

So primarily protein is denatured and unfolded from its three dimensional structure and linearized inside of your stomach. At that point the partially digested food material, called chyme, ends up transitioning into your small intestine. Your small intestine is a magical, magical organ, because inside of your small intestine that's where the bulk of nutrient digestion and absorption happens. In your small intestine there are digestive enzymes that are secreted by your liver and your pancreas and your gallbladder, and your small intestine itself. And that cocktail of enzymes has a very specific function. And that is these enzymes go and they effectively attack the food that you are eating, or that you just ate. And their purpose is to try and take this food and take it from its large macro molecules and cut them into individual pieces, and then take those individual pieces and absorb them through the walls of your small intestine and put them into your blood.

So when it comes to triglyceride, the triglyceride is basically cut. The reason it's called triglyceride is because there are three fatty acid molecules attached to a glycerol. So you have a glycerol backbone plus three fatty acids. And the digestive enzymes hydrolyze or cut the glycerol from the three fatty acids, and then those three fatty acids are then transported into your lymph system. And then in your lymph system there then eventually dumped into your blood. And then once they're inside of your blood they are then packaged into these things called chylomicron particles. There's some funky words that we use in the biology world, but the idea here is these chylomicron particles are these little spaceships. And they're spaceships that contain a bunch of cargo. And there are billions of them in circulation inside of your blood at any moment in time.

So right after a fat-rich meal, these chylomicrons are loaded with the cargo of fatty acids. And these fatty acids circulate in chylomicrons. And their goal is to get to a tissue so that the fatty acids can be unloaded into a tissue. Now, if I could design the human body, or if I could design mammals from the ground up, what I would do is I would make it so that those chylomicron particles only really have access to one tissue. And that one tissue is called fat tissue, or adipose tissue. Because if those chylomicron particles went only to the fat tissue and delivered their cargo into the fat tissue, that would actually be physiologically safe. Because your fat tissue is actually a very safe place to keep fatty acids. It's designed both mechanically and enzymatically to be able to take up large amounts of fat, when present, and then store that fat and lock it up in a triglyceride one more time, and keep it until it doesn't need it anymore, then it can cut it and deliver to other tissues.

But here's the problem. When those chylomicrons are loaded with their fatty acid cargo and they circulate, they not only deliver fat to the fat tissue, which is again the safe place to put it, but they also deliver the excess to your liver, and they also deliver the excess to your muscle. So now you have fatty acids that are basically getting partitioned into one of three tissues. Your adipose tissue, number one, and then your muscle and your liver is number two and number three.”




I still eat some animal products but I also eat lots of plant-based meals. I’m convinced that some variation of that is healthiest (ie plant-based fully or some high percentage of plant-based) and the recommended diet has been demonstrated to reduce insulin resistance.

Note - I’ve responded with detail not because I’m trying to persuade anyone but because I think there’s prejudice against the idea and people don’t look with an open mind. There’s not some vegan conspiracy going on here. Most of these people have changed their diet because the evidence suggested it was best. There is, of course, evidence about the benefits of vegan and vegetarian diets for things like cancer too. Everyone should choose what works for them and what they can sustain, but I believe they should choose without prejudice and look at as much different information as they can. We all make our own choices, as we should.
 
Last edited:
Congratulations Kayte.

Shows a good dietician is worth a thousand podcasts.

Was high carb the primary aim, or the result of providing you with a well balanced nutritious vegan diet?
 
Very pleased that you have found a way of managing your diet that works for you @Kayte .

For each of us it is a juggling act. As a T1 I no longer make any insulin which I need in order to process any glucose that I have from my carbs. I was told at diagnosis ‘you can eat whatever you want so long as you match it with the right amount of insulin’. True but then I have made my own decisions about how big I want my post meal spikes to be, found strategies with timing my insulin (which for non diabetics is dealt with automatically) and choosing a target number of carbs that works for me.

On here I find that variety of approaches is useful, and the discussions around these so beneficial.
Let us know how you are as the weeks go by.
 
I still eat some animal products but I also eat lots of plant-based meals. I’m convinced that some variation of that is healthiest (ie plant-based fully or some high percentage of plant-based) and the recommended diet has been demonstrated to reduce insulin resistance.

I eat a high proportion of largely plant-based meals too. With the exception of a little dairy, and occasional meat when eating out.

Interestingly when we were eating more fully vegan some years back I didn’t observe any reduction in doses personally. My ratios remained the same, and I just needed bigger doses because the carb content of meals was often higher.

It may be that you have to go a bit more full-on to somehow trigger the difference (and that I was still eating enough fats to prevent that happening), but I have a general low-level caution about dietary approaches that attempt to virtually eliminate any one food group. I’m more of a middle-of-the-road, everything-in-moderation plodder 🙂
 
Hi there. I'm Kay and I'm a newly diagnosed T2 diabetic. Mine was caused by pancreatitis so I've had to take very high doses of insulin for weeks to get any stability. I'm vegan so it's hard to decrease my carbs as this is a major food group for me.
Fast forward to me watching What the Health on Netflix and having a few consultations with a nutritionist. She made me a meal plan and within a week my blood sugar was stable enough to come off insulin. My Libre has recorded me being in range for 98% of the day and night! I'm beyond happy!!! I eat around 350g carbs a day and very little fat, and it works!!! I'll sace telling you the reasons why as it's a long story, just watch the documentary! I'd love to know what people think!

You ask what people think, well if it works for you then that's all that matters.

Know when my wife was told she was prediabetic she did slimming world diet that is obviously low fat & what fats there was was from foods like nuts seeds & such. Her diet wasn't low carb but tbh it wasn't high carb either so fair to say it was somewhere in between, anyway it worked in reversing diagnosis through weight loss & all bloods since have been fine despite following a pretty normal diet now.

As type 1 do find if meals are high in animal fats that it can cause some kind of insulin resistance that lasts several hours, thought that this was just unique to myself until reading other members experiences on here who find same thing happens to them, they were predominantly type 1s so yours is a first @Kayte from a type 2 perspective.
 
@everydayupsanddowns It was probably the amount of fat, as you say. When I did it I didn’t measure my dietary fat, but I cut out nuts, oils, nut butters and avocados. I was surprised to find that fats were in more foods than I thought, eg oats have a small amount. So I reckoned I’d be getting a small amount of fats from those that would be the right amount for the diet. So I basically ate veg, fruit, grains, tubers and pulses - no obvious fat at all, just the small amount in the grains, etc. It’s the very low fat bit which is important. It was quite different from my usual plant-based meals as normally I’d eat avocados, olive oil, and a fair amount of nuts.

To anyone on insulin reading this and planning to have a go, the change can be quite quick so watch out for hypos. I needed less insulin for the carbs I was eating and had to reduce my basal too.
 
I was told by one consultant that I was a type 3c because of my pancreatitis but I didn't write it on here because I didn't think people knew! I've had great trouble with the medical professions recognising it so I've just given up and say I've got T2. Saves a lot of arguments!
To be fair most type 3c seem to align themselves with type 1 for ease of explanation rather than type 2.

In both (ongoing and damaged enough) 3c and 1 there is a lack of insulin that must be replaced with insulin. There may be a difference in cause, surgery, infection or disease etc v autoimmune but the outcome is much the same. Whereas type 2 is a metabolic condition on the whole and is massively about insulin resistance and the effects that has on the entire body eg frequently accompanied by excess weight, high blood pressure, non alcoholic fatty liver disease, hyperinsulinemia as well as high blood glucose.

Could it be possible your pancreas was temporarily damaged and has been able to recover some of its functionality over time? I’ve certainly seen reports that Covid for example cause “temporary” type 1-like disease and about other damages to organs not being permanent. Not sure what testing you’ve had that could shed light on that possibility or how you’d separate time and healing from diet changes as the reason for it even if established it had in fact improved.
 
To be fair most type 3c seem to align themselves with type 1 for ease of explanation rather than type 2.

In both (ongoing and damaged enough) 3c and 1 there is a lack of insulin that must be replaced with insulin. There may be a difference in cause, surgery, infection or disease etc v autoimmune but the outcome is much the same. Whereas type 2 is a metabolic condition on the whole and is massively about insulin resistance and the effects that has on the entire body eg frequently accompanied by excess weight, high blood pressure, non alcoholic fatty liver disease, hyperinsulinemia as well as high blood glucose.

Could it be possible your pancreas was temporarily damaged and has been able to recover some of its functionality over time? I’ve certainly seen reports that Covid for example cause “temporary” type 1-like disease and about other damages to organs not being permanent. Not sure what testing you’ve had that could shed light on that possibility or how you’d separate time and healing from diet changes as the reason for it even if established it had in fact improved.
From what I’ve read from 3cs in our community. Creon can be taken to aid digestion? Possibly someone type 3c could elaborate regarding dietary choices that could conflict with digestive enzyme issues?
 
From what I’ve read from 3cs in our community. Creon can be taken to aid digestion? Possibly someone type 3c could elaborate regarding dietary choices that could conflict with digestive enzyme issues?
The pancreas is a tricky little organ with multiple functions. As you say digestive enzymes are one and insulin another. I guess it varies enormously between 3c’s which functions their particular circumstances have caused to be dysregulated which dietary choices are in turn affected.
 
The pancreas is a tricky little organ with multiple functions. As you say digestive enzymes are one and insulin another. I guess it varies enormously between 3c’s which functions their particular circumstances have caused to be dysregulated which dietary choices are in turn affected.
I wouldn’t disagree with you there. I can use animal based protein (it breaks down & respectfully loads my BG levels in the long term. Ask a dog?) along with shorter acting carbs to save off a basal low comfortably if I’m active on the wrongly adjusted basal shot for the day thrown at me. But that’s just my experience as a T1. It’s amazing how a slice of pork pie can help me adapt & stay in range as a snack. I’m not a pumper & can’t suspend basal.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top