Driver's Licence Suspension and DVLA Petition

[martynlloydkelly]

Hi everyone,

I've been a type one diabetic for 22 years now, have good control and have been driving for 8 years. I've had 2 hypos in the past 12 months, both of which whilst asleep and both of which caused by stress and excessive exercise. I've subsequently stopped the excessive exercise, settled down and I've since had to reapply for my driving licence as it was a 3 year licence.

Unfortunately, I received a letter yesterday from the DVLA, this is how it reads:
"Dear Mr. Lloyd-Kelly,

Thank you for sending in the medical questionnaire form which you downloaded from the internet.

From the information given on the forms I have to advise you that you do not meet the standards required to hold a driving licence.

When you meet the standards to drive and are eligible to reapply for your licence we will need an application from D1 together with up to date medical questionnaire DIAB1. If you have any queries regarding your fitness to drive please consult your GP before making any further application to DVLA.

Yours sincerely,

Drivers Medical Group"

To say I'm outraged and completely at a loss is an understatement. As I say, the hypos mentioned on the forms were suffered whilst I was asleep; I have excellent hypo awareness of a daytime (I've never required medial assistance in the 22 years of having diabetes when I was fully conscious and a hypo was suffered). Furthermore, I've never had a hypo whilst driving and have in no way ever put anybody else in danger whilst driving my car due to my diabetes.

Both me and my girlfriend (who doesn't drive) rely on my car to get to work, to do food shopping, to attend diabetes clinic appointments, to go to university etc. and I find the decision to be wholly unjustified and extremely unfair. My issue isn't with the fact that I had a severe hypo, its that I wouldn't have had it if I was conscious and now I'm being penalised for something I had literally no control over. The knock on effect of this is people not declaring such episodes for fear of losing their licence. HGV drivers depend on their licence to make a living, do you think they're going to tell the DVLA about these episodes if it means losing their livelihood? The directive is far too myopic for such a subjective condition and I believe that each case should be considered on an individual basis.

I have spoken to my GP this morning and they have confirmed that they will be happy to speak to the DVLA regarding my case and provide them with a glowing medical report regarding my diabetes as I both take it seriously and have excellent control. I have also had a response from Diabetes UK's "advocacy" service asking me to give them a call but unfortunately I have been unable to get through to Jennifer who left her direct number in the email. The diabetes team at my diabetes centre have said that they will get the consultants on this and I will be emailing them in a moment with background details.

I also spoke to the DVLA this morning and the conversation went a little like this:

Me: Hello, I'm a type 1 diabetic and my licence has been suspended but the letter I received does not give any medical reasons for this decision and neither is there any information regarding when I can reapply.
DVLA: OK, I'll just pop you on hold
*hold*
DVLA: Hello, yes your licence has been suspended because you answered "yes" to the question "have you had two severe hypoglycaemic attacks in the past year?".
Me: OK, I find that quite ridiculous as I have excellent blood sugar control, and the hypos mentioned happened of a night, whilst I was asleep. I have never had a severe hypo whilst conscious as I have excellent hypo awareness. There is a difference between the two, I could cite you numerous medical papers that support this assertion, its even got its own medical name "asymptomatic nocturnal hypoglycaemia", its like punishing a child for wetting the bed when asleep, he or she doesn't know that its happened until they wake up, they have no control.
DVLA: OK, I've just told you why your licence has been suspended, that's all.
Me: I appreciate that but I do take this as an affront to be perfectly honest, its bordering on discrimination.
DVLA: Please hold, I'll have a word with some colleagues.
*hold*
DVLA: Sorry to keep you waiting again, yes, our doctor's here state that there is NO difference between night and day hypos and the legislation we follow is set out by the secretary of state.
Me: Well, to be blunt, you're wrong, there is a world of difference but OK. Can I speak to these people?
DVLA: No, we will speak to a medical professional representing you, but not to you.
Me: Oh, so there's nothing more I can really do now?
DVLA: No.
Me: Thanks then, bye.

I agree in one respect, there isn't a difference between night and day hypos, the issue is whether or not you're conscious when the hypo is occurring. What happens if you're in a coma due to an incident unrelated to diabetes but you then proceed to have a hypo, does that count against you for driving?

Since receiving the letter mentioned above I have created an online petition at www.change.org as dealing with hypoglycaemia and driving in this way is completely asinine. The petition explains my position further if you would care to read it and if you do thank you. Many more thanks if you decide to sign.

The petition can be found here: https://www.change.org/en-GB/petiti...sion-of-drivers-licences-for-type-1-diabetics

Currently, the petition has been retweeted by Joe Pasquale (actor and comedian), Stephen Dixon (Sky News presenter) and Steve Bassam (member of the shadow cabinet). I have also been tweeting other high-profile characters in order to gain exposure for this petition. I have also contacted the Liverpool Echo's health editor, Helen Hunt, who is interested in covering the story, hopefully I will be speaking with her very soon. The petition itself has garnered 85 supporters in less than 24 hours and I don't intend for it to stop there. I really hope to be able to change this legislation as to be penalised for a complication of a disease that you have no control over is crazy. In my opinion this whole issue borders on discrimination and I loathe that other diabetics will suffer due to it.

I will keep you informed regarding my progress with this and I fully intend to have this directive looked at and altered if applicable.

Thank you

 

[Redkite]

Hi Martyn,

This is absolutely ridiculous and you have my every sympathy. As a Mum of a type 1 boy we have all this nonsense ahead of us. I would be tempted to advise people to say they hadn't had any severe hypos if they had happened at night and in their sleep. People don't drive in their sleep for goodness sake! I hope your medical team can get this decision reversed for you as quickly as possible, and I'll gladly sign your petition and publicise it to other parents of type 1 kids. Have you written to your MP?

 

[martynlloydkelly]

Hi Redkite,

Many, many thanks for your sympathy, for signing the petition and for sharing it with others. If there's only one good thing that comes out of all of this its that other diabetics might not have their lives so adversely affected by this legislation as mine has been.

The fact that you're tempted to say one of the reasons why I think the legislation is so ridiculous. If you were a HGV/taxi driver etc. would you risk your livelihood by telling these people that you've had 2 "severe" hypos that you were unable to do anything about because you were unconscious and not driving at the time?

I have written to my MP, I've also been tweeting various parliamentary committee members through today. I've been a little busy with all of this truth be told, I didn't expect it to be as successful as it has!

Thank you again for your support though, I hope that what I'm doing means that your son won't have to put up with the same difficulties when he grows up. Its all a matter of understanding.

Best,

- Martyn

 

[Lauras87]

What???

Can you speak to your consultant & gp?

I can kinda see where they are coming from but you were sleep unless you can sleep drive you weren't behind the wheel

Btw your link doesn't work

 

[martynlloydkelly]

Ridiculous isn't it? Also, my thoughts exactly, I'm not superhuman, I'm a normal guy who sleeps in a bed, not Father Ted who drives the length of an island whilst asleep.

I've spoken to my GP and they've said that they will give me a glowing report if necessary but they have to contact the DVLA or so the lady on the phone from the DVLA told me today. My diabetes nurse specialist and consultant are also meeting tomorrow morning to formulate a plan of action.

I'm not stopping with just me though, I'm going to see this through so that no diabetic has to go through this madness again. If its happened to me its happened/will happen to others and its incredibly unfair. Things need to change with regards to this.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Hi Martyn

Sorry to hear about your difficulties with the DVLA. I know that DUK did a good deal of work on this when the legislation was going through, they may have some useful information/support?

I would imagine that there an appeal process you can go through... I'm pretty sure you are not the first to have come across this problem so far, even though the legislative changes are fairly recent.

I've merged the previous (duplicate) thread in the driving section into this one to avoid responses becoming scattered in several locations.

 

[martynlloydkelly]

Hi Mike,

No problem, apologies for the duplicate!

Unfortunately there is no appeal process in place by the DVLA, which is crazy in itself. There's so many things wrong with this decision its unbelievable and judging from the response I've had its not just me that thinks so!

I just hope that my GP and consultant can come through for me otherwise I'll be getting around on a moped for the next 12 months!

- Martyn

 

[redrevis]

This is all down to the definition of 'severe' and daytime and night time hypo awareness. The DVLA define severe as "requiring the assistance of another person". Like the DVLA said, they won't make any allowance for a severe hypo happening in the night. They also state:

Impaired awareness of hypoglycaemia has been defined by the Secretary of State's Honorary Medical Advisory Panel on Driving and Diabetes as, 'an inability to detect the onset of hypoglycaemia because of a total absence of warning symptoms.

So they would see having a severe hypo in the night as you not having good enough hypo awareness which would wake you up before it became severe. Due to them not distinguishing between day and night hypos, this would conclude to them believing that your day time awareness is not good enough to allow you to drive, hence revoking your licence.
The only thing that will change this is for the DVLA to distinguish between day and night time hypo awareness and unfortunately I can't see them doing that anytime soon.

All quotes taken from here: http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/medical/aag/D/Diabetes - Insulin treated.aspx

Petition signed and tweeted as well.

offtopic: Nice to see another Martyn with a Y on the forums 🙂

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

The 'DVLA' section where you posted originally does seem to have accounts from some people who have got their licenses back, so it might be worth you taking a quick look to see what happened in their case (I couldn't find one that was related to '2 severe hypos but only overnight' that exactly match your case, but there were others that were '1x severe hypo' and/or 'hypo unawareness' related)

This page on DUK website might also be useful (though you may have seen it already)
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to...abetes/Driving/If-your-licence-is-taken-away/

This in particular sounded promising:

If your driving licence is taken away (revoked) you can ask the DVLA to reconsider their decision. A doctor’s report can be most helpful, so it is important to discuss the circumstances with your doctor if you have an accident due to hypoglycaemia. You also have the right to appeal against the decision to revoke your licence, to the Magistrates Court. You must appeal within 6 months of the decision to revoke your licence (or 21 days in Scotland). Before you appeal to the Magistrates Court you should give notice of your intention to appeal to the DVLA. If the DVLA is prepared to reconsider its decision, you will not have to go through the process of an appeal in the Magistrates Court.

Good luck with your petition!

 

[delb t]

all signed- our son will hopefully start learning to drive in the summer cant wait for the paperwork ahead!

 

[Twitchy]

Hi, agree it's outrageous! Will read & sign etc in a mo but have you tweeted this to Dominic Littlewood? (As in 'don't get done get Dom' series on tv)... He's a type 1 who drives so might be interested... Best of luck!

 

[martynlloydkelly]

This is all down to the definition of 'severe' and daytime and night time hypo awareness. The DVLA define it as "requiring the assistance of another person". Like the DVLA said, they won't make any allowance for a severe hypo happening in the night.

Understand all that but the problem is that asympotomatic nocturnal hypoglycaemia is very real (there's tonnes of medical research regarding it) and it only pertains to hypoglycaemia that occurs when asleep i.e. unconscious. I have excellent hypo awareness when compos mentis and walking around. Generally speaking, I don't drive whilst asleep, I do it whilst I'm conscuious, as I hope everyone does.

Therefore, the argument they're presenting doesn't stick unless you don't consider all types of hypoglycaemia which, to quote Ian Hislop: "If this is justice, then I'm a banana".

The whole aim of the petition is to get this lunacy rectified as you, and I, and surely most of the people who have more than one brain cell in their head, can see that this definition and its associated decision is totally unfair and completely stupid.

This page on DUK website might also be useful (though you may have seen it already)
http://www.diabetes.org.uk/Guide-to-...is-taken-away/

Thank you for pointing that out, I have already seen it but it may be useful for others. It has information, but its not particularly sound information... Viewer discretion advised.

If your driving licence is taken away (revoked) you can ask the DVLA to reconsider their decision. A doctor?s report can be most helpful, so it is important to discuss the circumstances with your doctor if you have an accident due to hypoglycaemia. You also have the right to appeal against the decision to revoke your licence, to the Magistrates Court. You must appeal within 6 months of the decision to revoke your licence (or 21 days in Scotland). Before you appeal to the Magistrates Court you should give notice of your intention to appeal to the DVLA. If the DVLA is prepared to reconsider its decision, you will not have to go through the process of an appeal in the Magistrates Court.

I fully intend to do this if the situation doesn't improve after a discussion between my consultant, my GP and the DVLA. I really think I have a strong case here, its like punishing a child for wetting the bed. A better example would be one of a person who is in a comatose state due to some non diabetes-related issue and them having two severe hypos. Then when they wake up their licence is suspended upon renewal, is that really fair?

Good luck with your petition!

Thanks, Mike. Its picked up a lot of steam since its creation last night and I'm moving onto political figures now. Lets hope some good comes from all this.

offtopic: Nice to see another Martyn with a Y on the forums

Same to you! I like that there's not many of us, we stand out a little more haha!

all signed- our son will hopefully start learning to drive in the summer cant wait for the paperwork ahead!

Thank you very much, very grateful to you all. I hope he doesn't have to go through all this and if he does that he sails through!

Best,

- Martyn

 

[Highlander]

Sorry to hear this.

Unless the Hypos needed the assistance of another person, or you were driving at the time, then the answer to the question should have been No.

 

[martynlloydkelly]

Hi, agree it's outrageous! Will read & sign etc in a mo but have you tweeted this to Dominic Littlewood? (As in 'don't get done get Dom' series on tv)... He's a type 1 who drives so might be interested... Best of luck!

Hi Twitchy, thank you very much for signing, don't forget to share too (if its not too much trouble)! I have indeed gotten in touch with Mr. Littlewood via. twitter, he's not responded as of yet, not sure if he goes on it much but its sent. Diabetes UK have a list of celebrities who support the charity so I pretty much tweeted everyone they listed. Thank you though, the support is most welcome 🙂

Sorry to hear this.

Unless the Hypos needed the assistance of another person, or you were driving at the time, then the answer to the question should have been No.

Exactly, its not like its a difficult concept to grasp: if you're unconscious and you don't have awareness of a hypo that develops into a severe hypo then that shouldn't affect your ability to operate a motor vehicle whilst conscious.

Just had tea, on to round 3 now!

Best,

- Martyn

 

[delb t]

daughter on the case on fb

 

[martynlloydkelly]

daughter on the case on fb

Tell her thank you very much from me, I'm very grateful for all the support. Really.

Best,

- Martyn

 

[bev]

Hi Martyn,

As far as I know it only counts if you needed assistance from a third party or you attended hospital. I may be wrong but why did you answer 'yes' if you didnt need either?I havent actually seen the form you filled in as son is only 15 but from what I have read you only need to answer yes if the criteria above applies.🙂Bev

 

[martynlloydkelly]

As far as I know it only counts if you needed assistance from a third party or you attended hospital. I may be wrong but why did you answer 'yes' if you didnt need either?I havent actually seen the form you filled in as son is only 15 but from what I have read you only need to answer yes if the criteria above applies.Bev

Hi Bev,

This is the whole issue, I did require third party assistance (from my girlfriend who called the paramedics) but the hypo ended up being severe because I was asleep and had no awareness of the hypo (asymptomatic nocturnal hypoglycaemia). I get excellent hypo awareness when conscious though, I've never, ever had a severe hypoglycaemic attack whilst awake. Unless I'm asleep when operating a motor vehicle I fail to see how what I've indicated applies. The form doesn't exactly state "Have you had 2 severe hypos whilst conscious in the past year" it just asks "Have you had 2 severe hypos in the past year". The DVLA apparently don't distinguish between conscious and unconscious hypo awareness so if you're in a coma because of an issue unrelated to diabetes and you have 2 severe hypos whilst in the coma in the space of a year and you wake up a few days later then you can expect your licence to be revoked if you reapply within a year of the first hypo.

I hope that clarifies my position, if not, please do not hesitate to ask me to explain further!

Best,

- Martyn

 

[Pumper_Sue]

Hi Martyn,
basically you are sunk as you needed 3rd party assistance
It was the good old EU who came up with the plan of action and the DVLA decided to impliment it as they saw fit. Even though the rules seem grossly unfair they have been in place for a couple of years now.

DVLA could infact throw the book at you if you didn't tell tem before renewall as tequ you were not allowed to drive from the 2nd hypo needing help.
Hopefully they wont do anything on that score, and you can apply for your licence back from the date of the last hypo needing help.
Good luck with it all.

 

[bev]

Hi Martyn,

Oh sorry I didnt realise the full circumstances.The form doesnt seem to ask the relevant questions then? Surely some bright spark in the Medical Profession should have spotted there is a difference of when your asleep and awake! My son mostly has hypo-awareness but he also wears sensors and this wakes him of a night as it alarms his pump. I am not looking forward to him wanting to drive at all but mostly from just being a worried mum!

If you had said you didnt have hypo-awareness in the daytime then I would have understood where the DVLA are coming from - you cant be too careful and I was at a Conference recently and was told a really high % of accidents are caused by someone with Type 1 - I cant remember the figure now but it was high - so they do need to be careful but asking the relevant questions in the first place would help wouldnt it!😉I will go and sign your petition now and hope it works out for you.🙂Bev