• Please Remember: Members are only permitted to share their own experiences. Members are not qualified to give medical advice. Additionally, everyone manages their health differently. Please be respectful of other people's opinions about their own diabetes management.
  • We seem to be having technical difficulties with new user accounts. If you are trying to register please check your Spam or Junk folder for your confirmation email. If you still haven't received a confirmation email, please reach out to our support inbox: support.forum@diabetes.org.uk

Diagnosed type 3c in July 21.

Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.

Jonathan Rosser

New Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 3c
Diagnosed by Endocrinologist at local Hospital Trust with an alphabet after his name. However associated Diab. dept had to look up 3c on Google as they do not recognise the condition.

Underlying condition is Chronic Pancreatitis.

Feel I am being mis-treated disgracefully and there is nothing I can do about it. #

Bouncing from Hypo's to Hypers daily.
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry to hear that your local diabetes clinic are not up to speed. That is pretty shocking as 3c is pretty well recognized these days and we have a number of 3c members here on the forum. Is this a community diabetes clinic (which mostly treats Type2s) or a consultant led hospital clinic. Diabetes care is a bit hit and miss across the country and sometimes you do have to be prepared to fight your own corner and make a fuss to get the support you need. It really shouldn't be that way but in reality it is, especially in the current climate as diabetes clinicians have been run ragged due to the impact that Covid has on it and also that Covid seems to be triggering it, so they have a drastically increased work load.

The good news is that you have come to the forum and we can hopefully share our experiences in order to help you figure out how to manage things better. I will tag @Proud to be erratic and @eggyg who are two of our most active 3c members who can hopefully reassure you and suggest things that may help.

It would be useful to know which insulin(s) they have started you on and if you also have Creon? Do you have Freestyle Libre or are you relying on finger pricks at present for BG readings? You might be interested to know that Abbott Laboratories are doing a free 2 week trial of the Libre 2 sensors that you could apply for if you have a compatible phone to use to read it.

Anyway, hopefully others will be along soon to welcome and support you too. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask them. There is a huge amount to understand in learning to "impersonate a pancreas". Who knew such an unappreciated little organ did such an amazing and difficult job ..... until suddenly it didn't anymore and we had to take over manually. 😳
 
Diagnosed by Endocrinologist at local Hospital Trust with an alphabet after his name. However associated Diab. dept had to look up 3c on Google as they do not recognise the condition.

Underlying condition is Chronic Pancreatitis.

Feel I am being mis-treated disgracefully and there is nothing I can do about it. #

Bouncing from Hypo's to Hypers daily.
Welcome from a other 3c. Caused by acute pancreatitis for me.
Assuming you're on Creon or another type of pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy?
Are you carb counting? I found it took a while to get the Creon dose adjusted. If that's not right it's hard to match insulin doses to carbs.
How are you monitoring blood glucose? Do you have Libre sensors? They've made it easier for me to avoid hypos.
Lots of questions but hopefully they will help us to make some helpful suggestions.
It takes a bit of juggling but it should get easier.
 
Diagnosed by Endocrinologist at local Hospital Trust with an alphabet after his name. However associated Diab. dept had to look up 3c on Google as they do not recognise the condition.

Underlying condition is Chronic Pancreatitis.

Feel I am being mis-treated disgracefully and there is nothing I can do about it. #

Bouncing from Hypo's to Hypers daily.
Welcome and I'm truly sorry that you are bouncing around, sadly I remember that phase well. I can only say there are ways of reducing the rapid swings from low to high and back. As @rebrascora has said if you would share a little more information with us it's a bit easier to help you; my initial question is do you have Libre? Knowing whether you have that technology or just dependent on finger pricking makes a difference to the specific advice we can offer, but the principle is the same either way. Also are you carb counting and adjusting your bolus meal by meal or on fixed bolus doses given to you by your Endonor his team?

I'm T3c because I had a total pancreatectomy to remove a cancerous tumour. So my change in status was very abrupt. I am aware that pancreatitis can be quite different to my circumstances and I'm sure others will join in and offer their help shortly.

The main thing to help reduce the swings is to resist over-reacting when hypo. I know this is easy said and very hard to do. When low, particularly when very low, one gets panicked into feeling must do something .... and I certainly felt that I must eat (usually too much) was the natural response. So whenever you feel you are hypo finger prick and confirm that - even if you have Libre and it might be telling you that you aren't. And if Libre is telling you that you are hypo you must, again, finger prick to confirm that because Libre is great for showing you the trend (up, down or static) but is not always accurate. Once you've confirmed that your BG is below 3.9 take some fast acting glucose, such as dextrose, jelly babies or high carb drinks. But not too much. If between 3.9 and 3.5 try 5 or max 10 gms of carbs. I take 1 or 2 jelly babies; if below 3.5 take 10 or 15 gms. Then wait, 15 mins ideally before a 2nd finger prick and see what is happening. If your BG has gone further down take another 10 gms and try not to panic yourself! If your BG is recovering, even if you still feel hypo, wait a bit more - perhaps another 15 mins then repeat the process. You are trying to slow down the otherwise inevitable swing from low to high and back again.

I'm going to pause here and let you tell us a little more. For instance how long have you had your official diagnosis (so we have a better sense of how long you have been wrestling with your T3c status)? But I personally encountered a considerable problem with medical people, including so-called D Specialists, not understanding that T3c was unusual and needed their undivided attention to help their patients! There are a range of reasons why people become T3c and that affects what treatment they need.

Have you been told about Gary Scheiner's book "Think Like a Pancreas"? I found it amazingly helpful.

Look forward to hearing from you. No question is stupid; we've all been in your start position. Feel free to have a rant, share a joke or just share whatever you need to share about your medical circumstances. This Forum is very eclectic and can be very therapeutic.
 
So sorry, one of my questions is in the title to your thread. Apologies. That tells me that you've been grappling with this for a while and you are not a complete Newbie, rather a frustrated one!
 
Many thanks to all who have taken the time.

Firstly I made an error, in fact it was a Gastroenterologist with an alphabet after his name who made the diagnosis of type 3c. They were looking for other things/anything but he analysed the scans. At the time bloods showed my HbA1c as 130+. I was not feeling too well.... Endocrinology and Diabetes people only became involved later.

I will not name the hospital Trust that I am under for fear of recriminations.

My GP was happy to inform me that Patrick Swayze died of same in pretty short order. However I understand that Mr. Swayze was a true alcoholic whereas I can take it or leave it but have done so for a very long time. Since diagnosis my GP has rather given up.

Naturally there is a huge amount of finger wagging re-proscribed as opposed to prescribed medications. I am also a lifelong smoker. I am on my own and frankly do not care much what happens.

However I find that I am far better able to cope with being at the high end. No-body warned me what would happen as 'treatment'; progressed and readings gradually dropped to 'normal' but then through the floor up to 5 times a day back in January. It may be a reflection of the charmed life I may have been privileged to live but those episodes were the scariest things I can remember - even though I was once an Infantry soldier back in the 1980's.

On Creon which definitely works - I lost 4 stone early 2021 which prompted the visit to GP to discover all above. Now hovering around ten stone in old money from previous 11/12.

I am on Lantus and NovoRapid insulin and have a Palm Doc meter. I record everything on paper too - 50 pages of folded A4 so far.

Clinic downloads Palm Doc readings every 3 monthly visit, tuts a lot and asks how big is the banana I eat at breakfast!!! with (should I be not sure) illustrations downloaded from google. (Is it a small, medium or large banana?)

Enough whingeing. I have limited access to PC & internet so any delay in responding purely circumstantial. Thanks again.
 
Hello again Johnathan Rosser,

Thank you for the extra info. 4 aspects leap out at me from what you say:

- although you are categorised as T3c you are being treated as a T1 - which is good, because it should make getting Libre easier; in theory that shouldn't be the case, but it is and best to roll with that.
- as an insulin dependent diabetic you can ,within reason, eat anything and everything you want to eat - BUT you must take an appropriate amount of bolus insulin (your NovoRapid) to offset the carbohydrates you are taking into your body from any food you eat; big bananas are fine, but need the right amount of insulin.
- being at the high end is OK(ish) for a short period as you learn how to regulate yourself BUT definitely not in the medium or long term. High glucose can do irreparable damage to cells and organs in your body and can cause a load of different, sometimes very painful problems.
- you would find having Libre 2 a great help if you have a compatible smart phone;

I am happy to offer further thoughts on how you can progress with each of these 4 aspects and I'm sure there will be others who will also contribute. I know very little about the pancreatitis matters. But the basics of managing your diabetes I've had to learn in the last 2 yrs (like you are doing now).

I'm really busy all day today, so I'll get back to you this evening. In the meantime if you get onto the Internet today - has any of your specialists mentioned Libre 2, or carb counting or even a DAFNE course?
 
Hello Jonathan, I'm sorry to hear you've been mistreated, this sounds really tough. If you'd like to speak to one of our helpline advisors they'd be happy to talk things through with you, you can call them on 0345 123 2399 (Mon-Fri, 9am-6pm). Take care
 
Hi - thanks again. Relevant questions and points by Proud to be erratic.

You are in fact correct re-the treatment regime - in fact it was mentioned as I recall that I was being put in the Type 1 catagory....

Things are getting generally worse in that I need a stick to get around (they are using the term neuropathy), from sciatica it has progressed to generalised leg and joint pain mitigated with ever stronger opiates, and I note brain fog and extreme irritation at everything and anything. My fuse is getting very short... dangerous.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I was put on increasingly heavy dosage of Gliclazide from July 21 shortly after diag. I decided in January 22 after going through floors to stop it but still GP and Diab nurse cannot agree. I take maybe half/quarter dose now - this is my choice.

Carb counting has been suggested but I am on benefits, have hardly any money and cannot afford to eat let alone properly and regularly.

Libre 2 is a new one - nothing has been mentioned.

There is a course opening up locally (Haringey, N.London) which has already been cancelled several times called 'DESMONDS'. Cannot off-hand recall the acronym - (but remember the 80's TV comedy-soap?) so I already know the sort of people that are going to be running it and to be honest I don't think I can be bothered. It's me or no-one.

Thanks again.
 
Hi - thanks again. Relevant questions and points by Proud to be erratic.

You are in fact correct re-the treatment regime - in fact it was mentioned as I recall that I was being put in the Type 1 catagory....

Things are getting generally worse in that I need a stick to get around (they are using the term neuropathy), from sciatica it has progressed to generalised leg and joint pain mitigated with ever stronger opiates, and I note brain fog and extreme irritation at everything and anything. My fuse is getting very short... dangerous.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I was put on increasingly heavy dosage of Gliclazide from July 21 shortly after diag. I decided in January 22 after going through floors to stop it but still GP and Diab nurse cannot agree. I take maybe half/quarter dose now - this is my choice.

Carb counting has been suggested but I am on benefits, have hardly any money and cannot afford to eat let alone properly and regularly.

Libre 2 is a new one - nothing has been mentioned.

There is a course opening up locally (Haringey, N.London) which has already been cancelled several times called 'DESMONDS'. Cannot off-hand recall the acronym - (but remember the 80's TV comedy-soap?) so I already know the sort of people that are going to be running it and to be honest I don't think I can be bothered. It's me or no-one.

Thanks again.
Thanks for the extra information @Jonathan Rosser
Your treatment does sound a little confusing as I believe the My DESMOND course is aimed at Type 2 diabetics. Type 3c diabetics (who are not producing enough insulin due to pancreatic damage) are generally treated in the same way as Type 1 diabetics, with insulin.

Are you still in touch with the hospital endocrinologist? I see my endocrinologist and also can contact the DSNs (diabetes specialist nurses) at the hospital if I have any queries. I was diagnosed with Type 3c while in hospital with pancreatitis and, as I am treated by the endocrinology department at the same hospital I've been lucky that they understand the condition.

If you are not being treated by the hospital for your diabetes I suggest you ask your GP to refer you.
This will allow you to have access to suitable education course - DAFNE is a national course but many areas do their own course. There is also an online course - Bertie online, which you could try in the meantime and there is also information on the Diabetes UK website about carb counting.

The reason both @Proud to be erratic and I have mentioned carb counting is not that we're suggesting a change to what you're eating. In theory you can eat what you like with Type 1 or 3c diabetes.
We count the number of carbs in food so that we can try to match the amount of bolus insulin that we take with meals (your Novorapid) to the number of carbs in the meal. If you are taking fixed doses of insulin (for example I started with 4 units of Novorapid at each meal) if I ate less carbs than expected at that meal I could have a hypo as I would have injected too much insulin. More carbs than expected and my blood sugars would shoot up.
Once you're carb counting you can give more insulin for a meal with more carbs so it gives you the flexibility to eat larger meals or skip meals.
The dietician in the endocrinology department was the person who taught me to carb count. The session just covered how to count carbs and gave a starting ratio of insulin to carbs. There was no discussion of what I was eating (although I did have the opportunity to ask specific questions later). The book (or app) Carbs and Cals is very helpful with estimating the number of carbs in a meal.
They are a bit obsessed with the size of bananas, though! It was mentioned a couple of times as people often underestimate the size of bananas and so eat more carbs than they were expecting.

Another advantage to being seen by an endocrinologist is that they are able to arrange a prescription for Libre 2, the blood glucose sensor which you apply to your arm. You can set alarms to warn you of high and low blood glucose so you can take some glucose before you reach hypo levels.

It's good that you're keeping detailed records because everything I've mentioned about carb counting only really works well if your basal insulin (Lantus) is at the right level. Hopefully your team is keeping an eye on that. If it's at the right level your blood glucose should remain fairly steady when you're not eating.

Best of luck. Blood sugars shooting up and down can make you feel really rough so I hope that you're able to get some support from the hospital soon.
 
Hi again,

Really sorry to hear about your sciatica progression. Neuropathy is a recognised consequence of diabetes that can occur when the blood glucose is not particularly well controlled; but neuropathy is not exclusively caused by diabetes. I have mild neuropathy in the soles of my feet which started during the chemo I had in mid 2020. So far mine is not particularly painful, fortunately, but I have lost some sensation and struggle sometimes to walk on uneven ground without seeming to be drunk!! There are medications that can help, but this is outside my knowledge and is something that your GP should be helping you to manage.

Incidentally brain fog can be a symptom of both high or low BG and 'a short fuse' frequently occurs with low BG. There are many (very many) factors that can affect one's blood glucose - not just carbs eaten and insulin taken. Stress is a significant factor that raises BG and stress can be from medical problems, emotional responses as well as the worries and difficulties that occur with daily living. Anything you can do to reduce stress in your life is beneficial - easy said and hard to achieve, I know!

About Glicizade:

It's unfortunate that your GP and DSN can't agree, but sadly I can (sort of) see why that occurs. Your GP by definition deals with a huge number of different medical conditions and he/she may have a reasonable understanding of T2 (which accounts for 90% of diabetes in UK), but he/she is unlikely to have a good grasp of the intricacies of T1, let alone T3c or pancreatitis. Nor will the GP's practice nurse have that specialist knowledge, which is outside of general practice and is why a GP will normally refer you to a Specialist. Your DSN should be better placed to guide you and can at least reach out to a Consultant Endocrinologist (with lots of letters after their name) and get their understanding of your needs sorted in their minds. But DSNs are busy and some were deflected into Covid response nursing, so they have a backlog and anyway might not be fully up to speed on pancreatitis and diabetes. The T3c club is very small!
But Glicizade makes your pancreas work harder to produce extra insulin naturally. The risk is that if your pancreas is producing some insulin the gliclizade will be trying to enhance that production, while meanwhile you are also injecting insulin thus increasing the likelihood of going hypo. This will also be decreasing your chance of controlling your diabetes; you know to some extent what effect your injected insulin has but have no possible way of quantifying what the Glyclazide is doing. So my NON MEDICAL view is STOP taking the Glyclazide, its likely to be worsening your risk of hypos. Unless you have a Consultant specifically telling you otherwise.

T1 vs T3c:

You are T3c, but being treated as if T1, which means you not only get insulin on prescription as a matter of necessity but you should also always get the supplementary support and treatment that insulin dependent diabetics need. Very regrettably, insulin dependency is seen by most medical people as just T1s; and T3cs can get overlooked. So gracefully accept being treated as T1, even though some aspects of T3c are sometimes even more problematic; but be prepared to politely insist that you need additional support as a T3c with pancreatitis. The cause of T1 is not the same as T3c, so the treatment isn't completely the same.

This support should include things like feet checks and eyesight checks; variation in blood glucose can lead to variation in prescription - almost by the hour - but also in the longer term damage to vision from something called retinopathy. Your DSN or GP should have set you up for annual eyesight checks, with the empathise on detailed checks of the eyeball and optic nerves, over and above the regular eye tests one needs if you would normally wear glasses. At this early stage in your diabetes you may well notice vision changes, as you oscillate between BG too low and too high; high glucose changes the shape of your eyeball and thus can lead to distorted vision. I wear glasses for short-sightedness and have noticed that sometimes my prescription is fine and sometimes my glasses aren't doing what I expect them to do. I'm over 70 and used to have free annual Eye tests; but post Covid this has been reduced by the NHS to every 2 years. However, because I'm insulin dependent my optician has accepted that I need annual tests and over-ruled the NHS guidance; they have some discretion to be ablevto do this. I separately get diabetes generated annual Eye checks for abnormalities, but these are not tests for my spectacle prescription.

About carb counting:

@soupdragon has explained the advantage of carb counting. Being short of money shouldn't stop you from counting the carbs of whatever you eat and thus taking the right amount of insulin for the food that you do eat. A slice of economy white bread or a potato still has carbs and these, along with any other food you eat can be carb counted! Almost anything that comes packaged from a supermarket has the carb content stated on the packaging; usually as carbohydrates per 100gm, sometimes per portion.

You are taking slow release Lantus insulin, which is called your basal insulin. It is intended to deal with all the glucose your body generates in a 24 hour period - EXCLUDING any glucose you eat (carbohydrates get converted by your digestive system into glucose). So if you have an adrenaline rush (which happens for all sorts of reasons during any day) your liver gets a "message" from the adrenaline hormone and releases glucose from the liver store into your blood. Your basal (lantus) insulin deals with that. When you eat you need the bolus (NovoRapid) insulin to deal with that extra glucose coming from your digestive system. Also, if from finger pricking, your BG is too high and you need to apply a correction, that is done with the NovoRapid. This bolus insulin is relatively rapid, in relation to your Lantus and lasts over a 4-5hr period; we are all different and exactly how long it last varies from person to person.

My worry for you is that if you are constantly running high, in order to avoid going hypo, then you are putting in place the possibility of irreversible damage to various organs and limbs. You should be trying to keep your BG in the range 4-10. You won't achieve this all of the time: perfection is not a realistic option. By adopting carb counting you give yourself a better chance of gaining control of your BG.

Pester your DSN to get you on a DAFNE course (ideal), or Bertie on line to get the basics. A DAFNE course with other insulin dependent diabetics gives you the opportunity to compare experiences with others. DESMOND courses won't be appropriate; they are for T2s and about how to reduce or limit your carb intake and as snapdragon has said you do not need to do that. But don't dismiss the notion of a carb counting course; I feel sure you will find it helpful.

About Libre 2:

By being treated as a T1, you should be eligible for the Libre 2 sensor on prescription. This measures your Blood Glucose continuously and by scanning the sensor with either the reader that the manufacturer, Abbott, should provide or a suitable smart phone you can get instant snapshots of your BG without finger pricking - most of the time. There are limitations in the use of Libre and there is a need to finger prick sometimes, but the advantages of using a Libre sensor makes management of your diabetes a game changer. Ask your DSN to get your name on the list; as a T3c, being treated as a T1, you should be eligible.

Enough from me for now. This is already too long. Feel free to keep asking questions, no question is stupid. Diabetes is complicated, confusing, contradictory and at times frightening. All that said, with time and experiences to learn from it gets easier. You may find that phoning DUK, as offered by Poppy at #8 of this thread, could be most helpful. You are in a complex position with at least 2 major ailments on top of your diabetes and DUK might be able to help you steer a course through the labyrinth of medical bureaucracy.

Good luck, Roland
 
Sorry to hear about the challenges you are facing @Jonathan Rosser

It really does sound like you could do with more in the way of practical support to help you improve your dose adjustment skills.

There is a free online course very similar to DAFNE here


But I’m not sure how easy that would be to access if you don’t have internet at home.

I wonder if you might be able to ask your local library (remember those?!) to get hold of a copy of either

Ragnar Hanas ‘Type 1 diabetes in children and young people’ (which is just as suitable for adults too)

or

Gary Scheiner ‘Think Like a Pancreas’

Which are both well respected and regarded on the forum.

As a 3c you really should be treated more as a T1, so I suspect DESMOND would be of limited use.

Hope things improve for you soon
 
Hi again,

Really sorry to hear about your sciatica progression. Neuropathy is a recognised consequence of diabetes that can occur when the blood glucose is not particularly well controlled; but neuropathy is not exclusively caused by diabetes. I have mild neuropathy in the soles of my feet which started during the chemo I had in mid 2020. So far mine is not particularly painful, fortunately, but I have lost some sensation and struggle sometimes to walk on uneven ground without seeming to be drunk!! There are medications that can help, but this is outside my knowledge and is something that your GP should be helping you to manage.

Incidentally brain fog can be a symptom of both high or low BG and 'a short fuse' frequently occurs with low BG. There are many (very many) factors that can affect one's blood glucose - not just carbs eaten and insulin taken. Stress is a significant factor that raises BG and stress can be from medical problems, emotional responses as well as the worries and difficulties that occur with daily living. Anything you can do to reduce stress in your life is beneficial - easy said and hard to achieve, I know!

About Glicizade:

It's unfortunate that your GP and DSN can't agree, but sadly I can (sort of) see why that occurs. Your GP by definition deals with a huge number of different medical conditions and he/she may have a reasonable understanding of T2 (which accounts for 90% of diabetes in UK), but he/she is unlikely to have a good grasp of the intricacies of T1, let alone T3c or pancreatitis. Nor will the GP's practice nurse have that specialist knowledge, which is outside of general practice and is why a GP will normally refer you to a Specialist. Your DSN should be better placed to guide you and can at least reach out to a Consultant Endocrinologist (with lots of letters after their name) and get their understanding of your needs sorted in their minds. But DSNs are busy and some were deflected into Covid response nursing, so they have a backlog and anyway might not be fully up to speed on pancreatitis and diabetes. The T3c club is very small!
But Glicizade makes your pancreas work harder to produce extra insulin naturally. The risk is that if your pancreas is producing some insulin the gliclizade will be trying to enhance that production, while meanwhile you are also injecting insulin thus increasing the likelihood of going hypo. This will also be decreasing your chance of controlling your diabetes; you know to some extent what effect your injected insulin has but have no possible way of quantifying what the Glyclazide is doing. So my NON MEDICAL view is STOP taking the Glyclazide, its likely to be worsening your risk of hypos. Unless you have a Consultant specifically telling you otherwise.

T1 vs T3c:

You are T3c, but being treated as if T1, which means you not only get insulin on prescription as a matter of necessity but you should also always get the supplementary support and treatment that insulin dependent diabetics need. Very regrettably, insulin dependency is seen by most medical people as just T1s; and T3cs can get overlooked. So gracefully accept being treated as T1, even though some aspects of T3c are sometimes even more problematic; but be prepared to politely insist that you need additional support as a T3c with pancreatitis. The cause of T1 is not the same as T3c, so the treatment isn't completely the same.

This support should include things like feet checks and eyesight checks; variation in blood glucose can lead to variation in prescription - almost by the hour - but also in the longer term damage to vision from something called retinopathy. Your DSN or GP should have set you up for annual eyesight checks, with the empathise on detailed checks of the eyeball and optic nerves, over and above the regular eye tests one needs if you would normally wear glasses. At this early stage in your diabetes you may well notice vision changes, as you oscillate between BG too low and too high; high glucose changes the shape of your eyeball and thus can lead to distorted vision. I wear glasses for short-sightedness and have noticed that sometimes my prescription is fine and sometimes my glasses aren't doing what I expect them to do. I'm over 70 and used to have free annual Eye tests; but post Covid this has been reduced by the NHS to every 2 years. However, because I'm insulin dependent my optician has accepted that I need annual tests and over-ruled the NHS guidance; they have some discretion to be ablevto do this. I separately get diabetes generated annual Eye checks for abnormalities, but these are not tests for my spectacle prescription.

About carb counting:

@soupdragon has explained the advantage of carb counting. Being short of money shouldn't stop you from counting the carbs of whatever you eat and thus taking the right amount of insulin for the food that you do eat. A slice of economy white bread or a potato still has carbs and these, along with any other food you eat can be carb counted! Almost anything that comes packaged from a supermarket has the carb content stated on the packaging; usually as carbohydrates per 100gm, sometimes per portion.

You are taking slow release Lantus insulin, which is called your basal insulin. It is intended to deal with all the glucose your body generates in a 24 hour period - EXCLUDING any glucose you eat (carbohydrates get converted by your digestive system into glucose). So if you have an adrenaline rush (which happens for all sorts of reasons during any day) your liver gets a "message" from the adrenaline hormone and releases glucose from the liver store into your blood. Your basal (lantus) insulin deals with that. When you eat you need the bolus (NovoRapid) insulin to deal with that extra glucose coming from your digestive system. Also, if from finger pricking, your BG is too high and you need to apply a correction, that is done with the NovoRapid. This bolus insulin is relatively rapid, in relation to your Lantus and lasts over a 4-5hr period; we are all different and exactly how long it last varies from person to person.

My worry for you is that if you are constantly running high, in order to avoid going hypo, then you are putting in place the possibility of irreversible damage to various organs and limbs. You should be trying to keep your BG in the range 4-10. You won't achieve this all of the time: perfection is not a realistic option. By adopting carb counting you give yourself a better chance of gaining control of your BG.

Pester your DSN to get you on a DAFNE course (ideal), or Bertie on line to get the basics. A DAFNE course with other insulin dependent diabetics gives you the opportunity to compare experiences with others. DESMOND courses won't be appropriate; they are for T2s and about how to reduce or limit your carb intake and as snapdragon has said you do not need to do that. But don't dismiss the notion of a carb counting course; I feel sure you will find it helpful.

About Libre 2:

By being treated as a T1, you should be eligible for the Libre 2 sensor on prescription. This measures your Blood Glucose continuously and by scanning the sensor with either the reader that the manufacturer, Abbott, should provide or a suitable smart phone you can get instant snapshots of your BG without finger pricking - most of the time. There are limitations in the use of Libre and there is a need to finger prick sometimes, but the advantages of using a Libre sensor makes management of your diabetes a game changer. Ask your DSN to get your name on the list; as a T3c, being treated as a T1, you should be eligible.

Enough from me for now. This is already too long. Feel free to keep asking questions, no question is stupid. Diabetes is complicated, confusing, contradictory and at times frightening. All that said, with time and experiences to learn from it gets easier. You may find that phoning DUK, as offered by Poppy at #8 of this thread, could be most helpful. You are in a complex position with at least 2 major ailments on top of your diabetes and DUK might be able to help you steer a course through the labyrinth of medical bureaucracy.

Good luck, Roland
Outside my sphere of expertise but what a comprehensive reply.
Just to say I have done the MyDESMOND program and it is designed for Type 2 but I was therefore surprised to find there are quite a few people who are on the CHAT forum there who do take insulin and I hadn't previously realised that would be the case.
 
Outside my sphere of expertise but what a comprehensive reply.
Just to say I have done the MyDESMOND program and it is designed for Type 2 but I was therefore surprised to find there are quite a few people who are on the CHAT forum there who do take insulin and I hadn't previously realised that would be the case.
I never visited the chat, but I can no longer access the site they withdrew my access.
 
Shedloads of T2s use insulin - it's far from uncommon.
 
Yes, but are these shedloads taking basal, bolus and oral meds?
Bit puzzled why anyone would wish to know the answer to that question - why does it matter and to whom, for what reason?

It doesn't matter to me for instance as I am the only person whose BG I need to keep an eye on. I've 'known' @Lucyr for years anyway but I first met a T2 on insulin (a farmer from Worcestershire who regularly competed in carriage driving events in which Prince Phillip also took part) in 1973, approx 12 months after I was diagnosed T1 - hence I've known this for 49ish years. So - it's hardly like it's anything new.
 
Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Certain things becoming clearer.

1): DESMONDS as suspected a waste of time.

2): I really am not being properly treated. Have never seen the head honcho/Endo at the hospital and only the DSN on three monthly basis.

3): The sciatica has turned into neuropathy (perhaps it is a progression of the the same thing) that is gradually affecting all limbs (whereas it was only left side leg), extremities, joints and I suspect other organs - including brain, which for me is the most worrying thing of all.

4): Gliclazide is out from now on.

5): I need to look into carb counting for my own benefit on a more intensive basis.

Thanks again.
 
Bit puzzled why anyone would wish to know the answer to that question - why does it matter and to whom, for what reason?
Well, I wish to know.

It matters because I offered a non medical view in this thread started by a T3c from pancreatitis to stop taking gliclazide as well as insulin and with the hope that this would provide better control of his swings from low to high and back again . So if I am wrong and that taking the 2 medications together is normal for the majority of people with pancreatitis I'd be happy to correct my error.

This thread was seeking help with his T3c and has little to do with T2; so from my limited knowledge that connection feels like a distraction, other than perhaps illustrating a principle that some people take both oral pancreatic insulin booster meds as well as insulin. Doesn't seem to make 'shedloads' (whatever that numerically interprets into). And treatments from 40 yrs ago were based on knowledge and understanding that has progressed since then, so is this 2 track treatment common place today?

It also matters to me since my instinct, but I recognise that is not a medical diagnosis or even necessarily well informed, is that once the basal/ bolus regime is in place taking oral meds to boost insulin production is not helpful for someone with pancreatitis and certainly increases the hypo risks.

It also matters to me, since my own abrupt intro to DM after my pancreatectomy has made me aware that there is a lot of DM (both T1 and T2) in my extended family on my maternal side. Indeed my late brother was a T2 and made an emergency abandonment of his former home in Kenya to get treatment in UK for his gangrenous leg and he was at that time only on oral meds for his T2. After both legs were amputated he was switched from oral meds to a full basal and bolus insulin regime and was told to stop oral meds. So I have a miniscule (perhaps misleading) knowledge about the principle of not mixing the 2 treatments.

My brother's misfortune also serves as a stark personal reminder to me that DM can have horrible consequences. I'm happy to be better informed.
 
Thanks everyone for your inputs.

Certain things becoming clearer.

1): DESMONDS as suspected a waste of time.
Agreed, but do seek out carb counting for T1 'opportunities'. Ideally this is easiest through the Internet, including much information that exists on this site. But there will be books in libraries - I briefly looked at diabetes for dummies, but was put off a bit by the American vocabulary in the copy I was looking at.
2): I really am not being properly treated. Have never seen the head honcho/Endo at the hospital and only the DSN on three monthly basis.
Yes, that is my perception from everything you've told us. I'm not sure what is the best advice I can give you from my narrow perspective. But: pancreatitis is a complex and multi-disciplinary medical condition. At this moment my replies have been about diabetes; perhaps you could widen your search for help by pressing your GP to refer you for Pancreatic further help as well as pressing your DSN to set up an early Endocrinologist appointment.

The National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) provide guidance to all areas of the NHS - ie GPs, Consultant's, Hospital Trusts and Clinical Commissioning Groups (CCGs) on virtually every bit of medical treatment in UK. Their:

"NICE guideline [NG104] on Pancreatitis, Published: 05 September 2018, Last updated: 16 December 2020" specifically discusses the multi-disciplinary need for managing Pancreatitis. The overview at the start of this document says "This guideline covers managing acute and chronic pancreatitis in children, young people and adults. It aims to improve quality of life by ensuring that people have the right treatment and follow-up, and get timely information and support after diagnosis". That sounds like you.
Under patient information clause 1.1.2 includes: "Advise people with pancreatitis where they might find reliable high-quality information and support after consultations, from sources such as national and local support groups, regional pancreatitis networks and information services."
Under clause 1.1.3 it says: Give people with pancreatitis, and their family members or carers (as appropriate), written and verbal information on the following about the management of pancreatitis, when applicable:
• why a person may be going through a phase where no treatment is given
• that pancreatitis is managed by a multidisciplinary team
• the multidisciplinary treatment of pain, including how to access the local pain team and types of pain relief
• nutrition advice, including advice on how to take pancreatic enzyme replacement therapy if needed
• follow-up and who to contact for relevant advice, including advice needed during episodes of acute illness
• psychological care if needed, where available (see the NICE guideline on depression in adults)
• pancreatitis services, including the role of specialist centres, and primary care services for people with acute, chronic or hereditary pancreatitis
• welfare benefits, education and employment support, and disability services.

So the principle that Pancreatitis needs wide ranging help is spelt out. The big quandary, as I see it, is how can you access that help? Your GP might be a start point, but could be slow given the present National backlog of GP services. If I were in your position I would phone the DUK Helpline [0345 123 2399 (Mon-Fri, 9am-6pm)] as offered by Poppy at #8;of this thread and ask for their help in finding the best path through what is currently a minefield. There is also a charity called Guts UK you could try (020 7486 0341) and see what advice and help they can give.
3): The sciatica has turned into neuropathy (perhaps it is a progression of the the same thing) that is gradually affecting all limbs (whereas it was only left side leg), extremities, joints and I suspect other organs - including brain, which for me is the most worrying thing of all.
I understand neuropathy to be a fairly generic medical term for a number of different circumstances that result in nerve damage (particularly at the bodies extremities) and causes loss of sensation and muscular control; diabetes is one of the major causes of neuropathy. So I agree with your thought process that the neuropathy is an extension of the sciatica.
I'm not sure if neuropathy directly affects the brain. But diabetes and high/ low BG definitely can do that. Illness is in itself depressing and you have 3 distinct illnesses, with sciatica, pancreatitis and now diabetes. Each of these is stressful and anything you can do to find ways of de-stressing should help. There is no shame in seeking psychological care, as alluded to in the pancreatic guidelines.

4): Gliclazide is out from now on.
Seems right to me. The important thing is that you are clearly making decisions about your treatment for your diabetes and taking ownership of that accordingly.
5): I need to look into carb counting for my own benefit on a more intensive basis.
Again, good and well done for facing up to this.
Thanks again.
You are welcome and by all means keep asking questions (however simple they might seem) or just have a rant - if that helps!
 
Last edited:
Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
Back
Top