Covid-19 response

I am talking about transmission of an airborne virus and pandemic preparedness.
Your selected quote called it a respiratory illness. Your quote refers to the parts of the body affected not transmission methods. Two different things
It proves that millions of people were wearing masks for reasons other than their health.
It possibly shows the decision was made for a reason other than health - not that the outcome didn’t benefit health.
I am claiming there has been no evidence masks make any difference when worn by the general public, which is true.
Which is largely the fault of the denial of the benefits of their use, the lack of availability early on and the appalling mixed unscientific messaging put out there that dissuaded people from using the right sort in the right way. Had the messaging been right the effectiveness of general population use would have been massively higher.
If you buy the "wrong" colour car, is that a mistake or an intentional decision?
If they bring in lockdowns, is that a mistake or an intentional decision?
If you make a spelling mistake, then yes, that is a mistake, because it was un-intentional (a mistake).
No mistakes were made. Bad decisions yes, but not mistakes.
A mistake can be both intentional and wrong. The wrong decision about anything can still be wrong even if it’s intentionally made.
 
Yes, but you are saying this as if the aim was to eliminate the virus from the population.

It was never the aim (nor was it possible) to stop the virus transmission. Nor was it ever achieved, even after the wonderful jabs were rolled out. The virus is still spreading to this day. So I don't get why you talk about locking everyone in to prevent asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic transmission.

This is why I have always referred to the old saying coughs and sneezes spread diseases and that instead of locking in well people, concentrate on those with symptoms. Also worth pointing out, if people are really sick, they will be self isolating in bed (no need to tell them to stay at home), they won't be well enough to get out of bed.
No I’m talking about if fewer (not none) got sick the nhs would have coped better and still been able to continue one of its usual work. If fewer (not none) were sick fewer would have died or been harmed. I am also talking about pre vaccination times when the virus variant was more harmful and less known about how to manage very sick patients than is now. I am not suggesting we should be locked down now.

Plenty of people go into school or work dosed up on paracetamol and cough and sneeze as highly efficient viral vectors every single day. A virus in a classroom or office takes a significant proportion of the room along with it and always has. It’s absurd to suggest only people sick enough to be bed ridden are infectious.
 
and thus, masks were brought in as a "just in case" they worked, not because they were to proven (evidence based) to work.
So in an unprecedented global pandemic killing thousands in weeks rather than take a simple (low cost, low risk, minimal harmful effects to the overwhelmingly majority) measure that had scientific evidence that the principle worked (masks have been unused for a very long time to reduce disease and transmission albeit in different circumstances) we should have waited to act and let it rip til we had documented proof.

We kind of started on that road as you are so happy to prove with your quotes. Then realised the absolute folly of ignoring aerosol and droplet transmission of an obviously airborne disease and changed to mask mandates.

If a person were to throw an object at your head would you duck or wait for a study to prove its worth ducking even though it always made sense without the evidence?
 
I’m not sure even another 600 posts on this thread would add much more clarity for me.
Not for some it wouldn’t. I promise myself every time I won’t respond to the distorted thinking but I just can’t leave such ludicrous and illogical comments alone sometimes. I know some minds will never see the woods for the trees on this issue yet I persist in futile efforts despite knowing it is such. I must be mad.
 
Plenty of people go into school or work dosed up on paracetamol and cough and sneeze as highly efficient viral vectors every single day. A virus in a classroom or office takes a significant proportion of the room along with it and always has. It’s absurd to suggest only people sick enough to be bed ridden are infectious.
And there's good evidence that's the main cause of school absence at present. (The government's own survey suggests that.) They're trying to present it as a problem that parents are acting inappropriately without mentioning that teacher absences are following a similar pattern. (And the Lib Dem and Labour policies on the same issue are seemingly deliberately not mentioning anything (like improving air quality) that might improve things. Which is bizarre, especially for the Lib Dems (if you're Labour you need to worry that you might have to do what you propose so need to plan possible spending, but that's much less of a risk for the Lib Dems).)
 
Not for some it wouldn’t. I promise myself every time I won’t respond to the distorted thinking but I just can’t leave such ludicrous and illogical comments alone sometimes. I know some minds will never see the woods for the trees on this issue yet I persist in futile efforts despite knowing it is such. I must be mad.
It basically comes down to the fact that I was against lockdowns and all the nonsense after (and the destruction of all aspects of life) based on sound, practical alternative strategies like staying at home if sick and readily available treatments like saline rinses and you are in support of lockdowns.
 
I've never said Masks don't work.

Unfortunately I’m not sure that’s the impression you give in this and several other threads. :(

Your posts very much read to me as you being against the mandates for wearing masks because the evidence was inconclusive. But that it was felt to be a wise precaution given the ballooning prevalence of the infection rates.

Consistently saying there was no evidence reads to me that you think people should never have been asked to wear masks. Is that not what you think?

Out of interest, if there had been no mandate would you have worn a mask or not?

Have you worn one since, eg when you have a cold, to help prevent the risk of passing that on? (As is common in many countries in east Asia)

Don’t feel you have to answer those questions if you’d prefer not to. I’m just trying to understand the nuance of your position.
 
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Unfortunately I’m not sure that’s the impression you give in this and several other threads. :(

Your posts very much read to me as you being against the mandates for wearing masks because the evidence was inconclusive. But that it was felt to be a wise precaution given the ballooning prevalence of the infection rates.

Consistently saying there was no evidence reads to me that you think people should never have been asked to wear masks. Is that not what you think?

Out of interest, if there had been no mandate would you have worn a mask or not?

Have you worn one since, eg when you have a cold, to help prevent the risk of passing that on? (As is common in many countries in east Asia)

Don’t feel you have to answer those questions if you’d prefer not to. I’m just trying to understand the nuance of your position.
Hi Mike,

I did wear a mask when they were mandated. Had they not been mandated then I wouldn't have, simply because I wouldn't have left home had I had covid.
 
I’m just trying to understand the nuance of your position.
Yes, a few don't to get my position. So, to explain where I am coming from on the pandemic.

Everything we were told was never quite right/honest/clear and the advice given was never followed by those giving it.

Call me pedantic, but it all felt off from that first televised lockdown. The elderly were treat terribly, turfed out of hospital and many died not from covid but from loneliness and neglect. People were being classed as a covid death if within 28 days of a positive test, regardless if they even had covid. At the Scotish civic enquiry the other week, ministers admitted that the within 28 days of a positive test was way over realistic saying few people ever had covid for 28 days, thus this effectively over counted cases. Then there was the definition of a case, when many didn't have a case of covid, but were still counted as such.

I can go on.
 
I promise myself every time I won’t respond to the distorted thinking but I just can’t leave such ludicrous and illogical comments alone sometimes.
There is no distorted thinking no my part.

Not only were masks brought in for reasons other than health, see here about all the other rules and strategies that I have been raising on this thread. My thinking is very clear and shows why I thought everything was fishy/off from the start.

In testimony, Simon Hart, the Secretary of State for Wales during the pandemic, said the different rules were brought in for the “sake of it”.

 
It basically comes down to the fact that I was against lockdowns and all the nonsense after (and the destruction of all aspects of life) based on sound, practical alternative strategies like staying at home if sick and readily available treatments like saline rinses and you are in support of lockdowns.
I was and am in support of health based measures that protect people and their health. Lockdowns have numerous negatives I accept. Sometimes these are less bad than the alternative though. I WAS in favour of lockdowns when they occurred. Not to be confused with wishing they had at other times or thinking we should still be in them as your present tense statement seems to imply.
 
Yes, a few don't to get my position. So, to explain where I am coming from on the pandemic.

Everything we were told was never quite right/honest/clear and the advice given was never followed by those giving it.

Call me pedantic, but it all felt off from that first televised lockdown. The elderly were treat terribly, turfed out of hospital and many died not from covid but from loneliness and neglect. People were being classed as a covid death if within 28 days of a positive test, regardless if they even had covid. At the Scotish civic enquiry the other week, ministers admitted that the within 28 days of a positive test was way over realistic saying few people ever had covid for 28 days, thus this effectively over counted cases. Then there was the definition of a case, when many didn't have a case of covid, but were still counted as such.

I can go on.
Oddly I do kind of agree with some of your points. We were told lots of half truths and distortions (not necessarily in agreement with which ones or how though). Elderly were treated terribly. Lots was off about them setting rules they didn’t follow.


If they had a positive test they were infected with the virus. They may not have had symptoms of illness. Far more died outside of those 28days as a direct result of Covid, and by that definition of Covid deaths, and were missed off the count than were falsely included. More realistic counts are the death certificate cause of death than the more simplistic and potentially inaccurate one you talk about.
 
Covid inquiry biased says scientists in open letter to the enquiry. The scientists are asking for the evidence for all the decisions made during the pandemic and where is the advice you were given. Instead, what we have much focus on tittle tattle on who said what to who in watsap messages, nothing about why each and every strategy was used.

"First, the Inquiry gives the impression of being fundamentally biased. The Inquiry originated in legal petitions brought by bereaved family groups. Yet there has been little opportunity for petitions to be brought by those who have suffered from the negative effects of pandemic policy decisions. This is preventing a more holistic assessment of impacts on population health and wellbeing. This lack of neutrality appears to have led to biased reasoning and predetermined conclusions, for example, to lockdown faster next time."

"Second, the Inquiry is taking key assumptions for granted instead of examining and critiquing them in light of the evidence. The consensus position in pre-2020 pandemic plans was that non-pharmaceutical interventions, including lockdown, had weak evidence of effectiveness, and were predicted to cause substantial harm to society, especially if used for prolonged periods. This informed the initial response to Covid in early 2020. Yet, the Inquiry assumes that these measures are effective and appropriate. As a result, it downplays the harms to society caused by two years of emergency
infection control mandates."

Third, the Inquiry lacks impartiality in the selection and questioning of expert witnesses. It has given preferential treatment to scientific advisers on SAGE, who have a vested interest in maintaining the justification for their policy recommendations. Very few scientists with an alternative position have been asked to testify, and the Inquiry has been confrontational rather than inquisitorial in its questioning of these views. The Inquiry has not seriously questioned the hypotheses and assumptions offered to government, especially from government appointed modelers, which were used to justify Covid policies. Neither has it seriously examined the social and economic costs of lockdown. It has also stuck to
an agenda of UK exceptionalism failing to recognize the experience elsewhere in the world.

Fourth, the format of the Inquiry is impeding investigation into the key scientific and policy questions. The Inquiry has adopted a legal format that prevents a systematic evaluation of the evidence by biomedical and social scientists on the harms of restrictions to the British public, the impact on Covid from policies such as mandatory NPIs, and the state of evidence for best practice. It is focused on who did or said what, rather than asking fundamental scientific questions. Yet investigating the interplay between harms, benefits, and best practice is critical to preparing for the next pandemic. The Inquiry, as currently functioning, appears unsuited to this task of national importance.


Fifth, the Inquiry risks reducing public trust in the impartiality and independence of government accountability and oversight. Its size and cost (by some estimates £300-500 million) will make it the largest public Inquiry ever undertaken to date, and yet its shortcomings, if not addressed, risk compromising the credibility of future public inquiries.


We believe the Inquiry has a significant and important mission and we would like to see it succeed. However, if it is to do so, these shortcomings need to be urgently addressed. The Inquiry must invite a much broader range of scientific experts with more critical viewpoints. It must also review the evidence on diverse topics so that it can be fully informed of relevant science and the economic and social cost of Covid policies to British society.


We, the undersigned, believe this is an urgent national priority and fundamental to ensuring that future pandemic response is evidence- based and maximizes the health and well-being of all.

 
New study reveals covid deaths before and after vaccine rollout.
Which is also before and after variants of the virus which were much more infectious, and before and after various attempts to control the spread of the virus were relaxed. Suggesting that it's all about the vaccines seems a stretch, particularly combined with multiple studies (in different countries) suggesting excess death rates in unvaccinated people is higher than in the vaccinated, and the figures from NZ suggesting vaccination didn't increase deaths (but the introduction of the virus, when it was allowed in, did).
 
Which is also before and after variants of the virus which were much more infectious, and before and after various attempts to control the spread of the virus were relaxed. Suggesting that it's all about the vaccines seems a stretch, particularly combined with multiple studies (in different countries) suggesting excess death rates in unvaccinated people is higher than in the vaccinated, and the figures from NZ suggesting vaccination didn't increase deaths (but the introduction of the virus, when it was allowed in, did).
From the w.h.o (and ons until they recently reconfigured stats) similar picture, shows huge increase in excess mortality between 2020 and 2021.
 

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The World Health Organization’s Dr. Hanna Nohynek testified in court that she advised her government that vaccine passports were not needed but was ignored, despite explaining that the COVID vaccines did not stop virus transmission and the passports gave a false sense of security. The stunning revelations came to light in a Helsinki courtroom where Finnish citizen Mika Vauhkala is suing after he was denied entry to a café for not having a vaccine passport.

Dr. Nohynek is chief physician at the Finnish Institute for Health and Welfare and serves as the WHO’s chair of Strategic Group of Experts on immunization. Testifying yesterday, she stated that the Finnish Institute for Health knew by the summer of 2021 that the COVID-19 vaccines did not stop virus transmission.

During that same 2021 time period, the WHO said it was working to "create an international trusted framework" for safe travel while EU members states began rolling out COVID passports. The EU Digital COVID Certificate Regulation passed in July 2021 and more than 2.3 billion certificates were later issued.

 
Which is also before and after variants of the virus which were much more infectious, and before and after various attempts to control the spread of the virus were relaxed. Suggesting that it's all about the vaccines seems a stretch, particularly combined with multiple studies (in different countries) suggesting excess death rates in unvaccinated people is higher than in the vaccinated, and the figures from NZ suggesting vaccination didn't increase deaths (but the introduction of the virus, when it was allowed in, did).
Which is also before and after variants of the virus which were much more infectious,
Yes; and less deadly, which is not what the graphs show. The graphs show a huge increase in both covid deaths and all cause deaths after the vaccination rollout, not a reduction.
and before and after various attempts to control the spread of the virus were relaxed.
Yes, measures were relaxed because of the confidence in the vaccines. However, the graphs show a huge increase in both covid deaths and all cause deaths after the vaccination rollout, not a reduction.
 
The Vaccination Scandal - covid passports, travel bans and getting it to protect others and Granny.

 
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Review of vaccination compensation scheme as claims soar.

Claims rose to 4,008 last year – up from 480 in 2022, [48 in 2021], 26 in 2020 and 27 in 2019, official figures show. Separate data reveals that up to April 26th this year, 11,022 claims were made to the scheme in connection with Covid jabs.

It is not a compensation scheme but is intended to “ease the present and future burdens of those suffering from severe vaccine damage, and their families”. Victims and families are still entitled to sue for compensation.

Financing the scheme has risen from £600,000 in 2021-22 to £16.1 million in 2023-24. Its one-off £120,000 payment has not risen in line with inflation since 2007. Minister Esther McVey is understood to be among those calling for reforms to the scheme.

 
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