Carbohydrates - needed or not?

[Drummer]

Presumably nobody is going to show any peer reviewed scientific evidence showing that the human body needs zero carbs as an indisputable fact then?

Oh well. Not to worry. It just seems odd to be so evangelical about something without having the evidence to back it up but if the evidence is not there, it's not there.

But it isn't something researched now - it is like wanting to get a peer review of research about there being bones in your leg.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

But it isn't something researched now

I'm sure people are looking, but good quality human nutritional research is horribly difficult to do. (Long term things end up having to be observational.)

This letter suggests there's not much evidence that extreme low-carbohydrate diets are harmless and similarly not much that they're harmful. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/75/5/951/4689417

 

[Inka]

Much is still being researched now @Drummer As I said, there’s still a lot we don’t know about human evolution (despite your bold assertion that it had all been sorted a century ago).

The distinction is between what we can do and what we should do. Yes, the human body can survive for periods without carbs, but should we purposely do that for an extended period of time?

The Inuit are often touted as a great example of people living a zero carb life, but their diet has been found to be around 20% carbs, as we’ve discussed previously. They also have a unique gene that we don’t have.

Humankind’s natural and optimum diet is, in my opinion, omnivorous, and should contain a reasonable amount of good quality carbs (ie not processed junk). The Hadza are interesting because, if I remember correctly, their microbiome has been studied in relation to good health, and to auto-immune conditions like Type 1 diabetes.

In general, demonising or dismissing any food group is unwise.

 

[pm133]

But it isn't something researched now - it is like wanting to get a peer review of research about there being bones in your leg.

So if there is no research for this, I am questioning where the confidence is coming from for anyone to be presenting this as a fact.

I am unsure what you meant by the bones in your leg analogy but there are plenty of medieval documents describing the leg bones and associated circulatory systems for blood and nerves etc. If anyone disputes the presence of leg bones, they can easily find out using tools found in their garage if they are mad enough to want to attempt it. This is completely different. The science which is known says that carbs are essential for the human body. If someone wants to dispute that they have a duty to prove it. They need to put the leg work into the necessary research and subject their findings to peer review. Don't get me wrong. If zero carbs is the future and it helps then I want to know about it but we can't be making potentially dangerous factual statements like that by reading a few internet blogs or on the back of anecdotal evidence (and I accept there seems to be a lot of that for low carb diets and it definitely warrants proper research into it). I think that is a really important principle and actually this is my only objection to the original post on this.

 

[pm133]

I'm sure people are looking, but good quality human nutritional research is horribly difficult to do. (Long term things end up having to be observational.)

This letter suggests there's not much evidence that extreme low-carbohydrate diets are harmless and similarly not much that they're harmful. https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/75/5/951/4689417

That article from 2002 has been cited by a few papers since then including one from 2015 which discusses the importance of carbs for human development in prehistoric times. I've not had the time to check the full citation list though.

 

[ianf0ster]

I generally get a little uncomfortable with suggestions that carbs are inherently harmful and/or entirely unnecessary, because I always feel there’s a whiff of ‘straw man’ about those arguments, and that they aren’t particularly helpful for people living in 21st Century Northern Europe.

Even examples of human communities who are often cited as ‘no carbers’ like Innuit and Masai aren’t apparently as clear as they seem, because generally Asda doesn't sell frozen raw whole seal carcass (with glycogen in it).

I would gently request that all members steer clear of ‘all or nothing’ arguments which insist that either carbohydrates are entirely unnecessary or that a high carbohydrate intake is essential for everyone.

In truth it is all but impossible to eat ‘no carb‘ - because even leafy veg has carbohydrate in it.

It is also unnecessary to insist on ketosis as the only option. Very low carb diets don’t work for (or simply don’t suit) everyone.

Conversely, it is also clear that the modern Western diet with high levels of processed and simplified carbohydrate sources is not healthy or sustainable for many people.

This forum has always supported a wide variety of approaches to diet in general, and carbohydrate in particular.

What really matters is that people are encouraged to find a way of eating that is nutritionally complete, viable and flexible, which they can enjoy and sustain long-term, and which supports their aspirations about weight and blood glucose levels.

Your Diabetes (and approach to carbohydrate) May Vary. 🙂

Nobody has suggested that it's desirable for a Western population to consume zero carbs - partly because the most nutritious parts of animals (the organs) contain small amounts of carbohydrates.

Personally (as Dr Gary Fettke said) I'm a vegetarian, but since i understand the deficiencies of a vegetarian diet I use supplements from animal sources. -I 'm an ovo, pesce, lacto. carne vegatarian!

So far I've had little success finding the source study on human life with zero carbs, but there is this section of the 2005 Dietary Reference Intakes for Energy, Carbohydrate, Fiber, Fat, Fatty Acids, Cholesterol, Protein and Amino Acids. :

Gyazo

gyazo.com

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Nobody has suggested that it's desirable for a Western population to consume zero carbs

I confess I got a slightly different impression from your earlier post:

That isn't strictly true because the actual daily requirement for carbs is zero !

But again I think all this is an aside really. I don’t really think it’s necessary to prove that one can exist on zero carbs by making glucose from gluconeogenesis and/or eating raw wild meat which has more glycogen in it (along with being keto-adapted)... since as you say it is not really desirable, or particularly practical, for a Western population to attempt to eat like that. Plus who knows what the long-term health implications of such an extreme might be?

There are some ‘required levels’ of carbohydrate intake (130g?) which are sometimes bandied about that often seem on the high side to me, and that many members here can disprove as they can happily live for many years on significantly lower levels.

I think we are all much closer in opinion on this than this thread might suggest. Some carbohydrate is a useful part of a varied and flexible diet, but the exact amount varies significantly from person to person, and what is most important is that people find a way of eating that suits them, their waistlines, their BG meters, their tastebuds, their lifestyles and contains sufficient micro and macronutrients to keep them healthy, energised and fuelled 🙂

 

[ianf0ster]

Here is a link to a .pdf of the whole DRI which is published by the US Institute of Medicine of the National Academies.

https://t.co/bXaI8Lba8C?amp=1

Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for carbohydrate
It is important to note that the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for carbohydrate is at 130 g / day based on the average minimum amount of glucose needed by the brain – with no consideration that the body can manufacture this glucose from both FAT and PROTEIN.

 

[ianf0ster]

I confess I got a slightly different impression from your earlier post:

Just because there is no nutritional requirement for me to eat Broccoli doesn't mean that I shouldn't or don't eat it.
The point I'm making is that this impression people have that if you don't eat at least 130gms of carbs per day your brain will suffer, or you will lack energy, or that you'll be deficient in essential vitamins etc. Is not only false, but that it can lead Diabetics into poor food choices!

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Just because there is no nutritional requirement for me to eat Broccoli doesn't mean that I shouldn't or don't eat it.
The point I'm making is that this impression people have that if you don't eat at least 130gms of carbs per day your brain will suffer, or you will lack energy, or that you'll be deficient in essential vitamins etc. Is not only false, but that it can lead Diabetics into poor food choices!

Absolutely! I was editing my post with some further thoughts which ended up being pretty much exactly what you’ve said! 🙂

 

[Drummer]

I accept that I don't need carbs as a fact simply because when I do not have any carbs to eat for days on end I do not feel in the least way different from those times when I am not avoiding the supermarkets due to the panic buying pre lockdown so there are carbs to eat.
Humans are omnivores, from a biological standpoint, but that just gives us the possibilities for more options, it doesn't restrict us to 'a balanced diet', it rather frees us from it. Even as a type two diabetic I can chose from a wide range of foods. I suspect that I could manage to eat far more carbs these days than the 40 gm I usually eat - unfortunately I would then stash it away as fat and after a few days the scales would register the change. Some people would just burn it off, but I have a frugal metabolism always preparing for the next ice age.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I accept that I don't need carbs as a fact simply because when I do not have any carbs to eat for days on end I do not feel in the least way different from those times when I am not avoiding the supermarkets due to the panic buying pre lockdown so there are carbs to eat.

I think you must mean specific sources of carbs @Drummer, while I am meaning carbs in the broader sense.

A couple of times over the weekend I’ve seen you recommend your recipe of placing slices of swede below roasting meat to soak up the juices. As a root veg, swede contains carbohydrate, as does carrot, and parsnip. Onion has sugars in it (which is why it can caramelise). Even things like lettuce, cauliflower and celery contain small amounts of carbohydrate (say 2g in a 50g portion).

This is why I don’t think it’s helpful to suggest ‘zero carbs’, or to suggest that people should be avoiding anything that contains carbs entirely. In my opinion it’s better to encourage people to find the amounts and types of carbs that suit them as an individual. This may well involve reducing or avoiding some of the more obvious sources of carbohydrate... but some sources of carb will remain. And those are an important part of the diet too 🙂

 

[Inka]

I think that’s a good point @everydayupsanddowns Sometimes “carbs” is taken to mean highly processed junk foods - which are indeed carbohydrate, but not things anyone is suggesting a diet should be based on.

All the advice I’ve read about a healthy diet say it should be largely plant-based, so of course will include carbs of various kinds, including veg, fruit, grains, tubers, etc. The amounts and types will depend on the individual, but to me carbs are not only something our bodies can deal with, they’re something that provide great health benefits overall. Starting from that point, and modifying content according to need seems best to me.

 

[Drummer]

Swede is 3.7 percent carbs. It doesn't soak up the juices, but it becomes coated in the fat from the chicken. Carrot is 5 percent and onion 4.6, and as I find that 40 gm of carbs per day can be coped with, these vegetables often feature in my meals. That is why I suggest using a blood glucose meter to find out the amount of carbs which can be coped with on a daily basis.
Vegetables and fruits which are low carb do add to the variety and they add micronutrients, so they probably help people to stick to a low carb diet for years on end, but they are not a necessity to be eaten every day, nor even every week if for some reason it is not convenient to go out to get them.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

That is why I suggest using a blood glucose meter to find out the amount of carbs which can be coped with on a daily basis.
Vegetables and fruits which are low carb do add to the variety and they add micronutrients, so they probably help people to stick to a low carb diet for years on end

Yes! Exactly. We are all saying much the same thing 🙂

Though my sources show swede as rather higher carb 9g/100g or 9%.

I generally think of root veg as being ‘about half’ as carby as potatoes (which Google suggests as 17% carb)

 

[Inka]

On the contrary, Drummer, I think people don’t eat enough veg. I’d never go a week without veg and fruit. Certainly, you can survive for a while without it (think of all those eating programmes where people have their diets ‘cleaned up’ because they never eat veg 😱 ) but it’s not optimum for health.

On another thread you talked about all the lovely homegrown fruit and veg your children had, and that’s fantastic and such a good start to life. It always shocks me when I read statistics about how little fruit and veg some people eat.

 

[Drummer]

Are you counting the fibre by any chance?
With my unfortunate sensitivity to carbs I am pretty certain that swede can't be as high as 9 percent.

 

[Eddy Edson]

So if there is no research for this, I am questioning where the confidence is coming from for anyone to be presenting this as a fact.

I am unsure what you meant by the bones in your leg analogy but there are plenty of medieval documents describing the leg bones and associated circulatory systems for blood and nerves etc. If anyone disputes the presence of leg bones, they can easily find out using tools found in their garage if they are mad enough to want to attempt it. This is completely different. The science which is known says that carbs are essential for the human body. If someone wants to dispute that they have a duty to prove it. They need to put the leg work into the necessary research and subject their findings to peer review. Don't get me wrong. If zero carbs is the future and it helps then I want to know about it but we can't be making potentially dangerous factual statements like that by reading a few internet blogs or on the back of anecdotal evidence (and I accept there seems to be a lot of that for low carb diets and it definitely warrants proper research into it). I think that is a really important principle and actually this is my only objection to the original post on this.

I don't know of any research looking at "zero carbs", but Kevin Hall's group at the US NIH has some great work on low-carb diets amongst a bunch of other stuff. They have a "metabolic ward" and their flagship studies involve locking people up in it for a few weeks and seeing what happens to them with various diets - all rigorously controlled.

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/about-niddk/staff-directory/biography/hall-kevin/publications

 

[rebrascora]

There seems to be a huge amount of variation in the nutritional info reported on snaggers (swede) even without the fibre included in US figures but somewhere about 7% seems to me a middle of the road figure. It may vary with time of year etc. I know they get sweeter, just like parsnips, the more frost they get before harvest, but it may also vary with the variety.

@Drummer Just because they don't show on your BG meter doesn't mean they don't contain carbs. On a low carb diet I still have to take them into consideration when injecting insulin along with carrots and sweet potato.

I don't think anyone here would advocate following a carb free diet as it would just not be pleasant and whilst we could probably exist for a short time without any carbs, it would be an existence/endurance and not particularly enjoyable or sustainable for the majority of people.

They key is to finding an enjoyable way of eating which will help you to manage your diabetes more effectively and feel healthy and for me that is a low carb, higher fat way of eating. How low carb varies from day to day but anywhere from 40g carbs a day to 100g seems to work best for me, but it will increase if I hypo and need to treat it or it is a special occasion and I want to splash out a bit. It is easy to get into the mindset of going lower and lower almost like pushing yourself to the limit but there is no point to this and finding the balance is important. If I have more one day, I might cut back the next a bit but it has to be flexible. Zero is not flexible.

 

[Ralph-YK]

From the film Crocodile Dundee.

"Crocodile" Dundee: (an iguana is cooking on the fire) How do you like your goanna? Medium? Well done?

Sue Charlton: You don't really expect me to eat that?

"Crocodile" Dundee: Yeah, it's great. Yeah, try some of these yams, try the grubs and the sugar ants. Just bite the end off, they're really sweet.

Sue Charlton: (eats a beetle) What about you, aren't you having any?

"Crocodile" Dundee: (starts opening a can of food for himself) Me? Well, you can live on it, but it taste like ****.