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Can insulin be too strong?

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Hi. Thanks for your advice.🙂 I have the carbs and cals book and app and use it every meal to record everything.I know about the absorption of carbs when eating a high fat meal and as you'll know this was a one off meal and not something I regularly eat which is why i took half the dose the app suggested, but as you can see a drop of 12 points in 1 hour is rapid and quite scary!😱 I think as a few have said I need to ask about splitting my dose as regardless of the meal I eat I always drop far too low before picking up.x
 
Even in a low or no carb meal 2 units will rush in and drop me far too low and then I'll rise too high later. The insulin definitely works too fast but it appears I need a little more than I can take.

Well of course it will with a No Carb meal! You don't take any insulin for it, if you aren't eating carbohydrate.

30g of carb is for example, a sandwich using 2 slices of large, medium sliced bread. That's about the extent of my entire lunch most days and has been since I was about 11 ! - but there again I have always had a sedentary job since I was 16, though the 5 years of that when I was still at school, obviously my day might include an hour of hockey, netball, tennis, gym, mixed athletics etc and in adult life I've done a couple of hours at the gym, or doing aerobics or running - during those times, I would have my evening meal afterwards.

Presumably you have a half unit pen so you don't have to always round your doses up? I never had a half unit pen because in those days they were very new and they only issued them to children whereas now they're available for everyone. (not disposable pens - the ones you use permanently with cartridges) Incidentally, when I used to have to round up/down on MDI, I only would go up if it was 7 or more - at 5 or 6, I would round down. Are you doing that bearing in mind you know your sensitivity?
 
Because I am always well into double figures before I eat I have to take a unit or 2 before I eat a low carb or even no carb meal to help keep it down! And no I don't have a half unit pen and I don't round up or down I take half the recommended dose as I said before!
 
Just realised that different injection sites haven't been mentioned. Do you always use the same places?
 
Yes I use my tummy. One side for short and the other for long acting. Would changing the site change the absorption? 🙂
 
Hi. So I had gestational diabetes 5 years ago and controlled it extremely well with diet only. However after yearly checks earlier this year my GTT was too high and after treating me for type 2 with increasing (up to maximum) doses of Gliclazide and Metformin they decided to try insulin by injection (first on Novorapid which I was allergic to and now Apidra). My dad is type 1 and fantastic at keeping good bg so it's not Alien to me and I have really good knowledge of foods. However after finding that 1 unit to every 10g of carbs was way too much for me I started to reduce it to 50 %-75% of 1 unit per 10g but I find that the insulin seems to rush in and my bg comes tumbling down way too low and I end up eating like it's some kind of race just to get the food into my system as quickly as possible and then when it does finally get in I go high again. It's like I need the full dose but it just works too fast. My consultant agrees with me that injecting after food is not a good idea. Does anyone know if I would benefit from an analogue instead? Sorry if tmi but it's driving me mad and now I start to panic every time I take it
I was gestational also at age 34. Started with oral meds 5 years later, then byetta was added when that stopped holding me steady. Levamir was added. Byetta with Levamir may work better for you.
 
Hi Emma
I'm very sensitive to insulin, I react very quickly to it and so I can only take very small doses. The maximum mealtime dose is 3 units which for me is 60g of carb or 75g in the evening, but I have to be feeling pretty brave to go higher than 2 units in the evening because I'm very prone to nighttime hypos. The basal testing might be a very good next step for you if only to rule out the possibility that you either don't need basal at all, or you need more. Once you know the baseline is correct it's easier to come up with strategies. I started out last year on a ridiculous amount of basal (30 units) and was hypo and then hyper constantly. I take 6-7 units of basal now. It was very hard work getting to the root of the problem though because i was rebounding a lot. I'm lucky my liver is quite keen and shoves out glucose to rectify the lows but it did obscure the problem quite a lot.

Incidentally I frequently inject mid meal which you may find helps as a short term solution it gives the food time to get going before the insulin hits. Longer term I did the following to find the actual problem. Fixed carb meals for a while, preferably if funds allow something carb counted independently (I used the M&S balanced meals because they're easy, and resemble actual food). If funds or family circumstances don't allow that then weigh everything and use the packets or carbs and cals to make sure you've got the exact amount of carb. That rules out one factor, namely that you're not estimating carbs correctly. I went for food that was mid level on fat, so there wasn't the high fat complication in the mix. Go for around 40-50g of carb, on the basis that the amount of insulin for that amount should be conservative enough to prevent a hypo. Pull your ratios right back, I went to 1:30 to start with but you might want to do 1:20 say and then test every 30 minutes (to see how you respond to food and insulin which helps to work out if it's just a timing issue rather than a dose issue). This most likely won't be enough insulin but even the high reading later will tell you something. If you're like me then the reading you get after the meal will be lower than you're used to which shows you that you were rebounding before. I was actually rebounding most of the time, then I'd having major hypo clusters, which I now realise was when my body was depleted of glucose stores. Its counterintuitive to take less insulin when running higher blood sugars but I was going utterly insane with it all, and like you feared injecting rapid because it was it was like trying to control a tsunami (that might be exaggerated to some reading this but I was at breaking point by this stage). I wish I could say my medical team provided lots of help and advice but they didn't, they were pretty useless because honestly I don't think they had any idea about insulin sensitivity. The exercise above helped me identify the issue and once I'd got my ratios sorted (not the 1:10 the DSN and consultant insisted was perfect) it helped me prove to them that I knew how to count a carb, that the maths wasn't beyond me, and I wasn't hysterical. Which was actually the starting point for useful help from them. It's also how I worked out where my ceiling is for insulin amounts. I did so basal testing first though and reduced the basal quite a bit before that point.

Anyway not sure if any of that is helpful, but I wanted to write it because I empathise with how you're feeling right now and wished someone had told me that we don't all conform to the same model when I was at the end of my rope 🙂
 
I've never ever had anyone say 1u to 10g was 'perfect' Kooky - I was always taught that it's just an easy (ie the maths is easy) place to START dose adjusting when learning to carb count and dose adjust - which you thereafter fiddle with constantly till you get to the point (ie the correct insulin to carb ratio) that is in fact right for YOU personally 9 times out of 10. (I'm a bit gobsmacked as to how anybody who works with a reasonable number of different diabetics, could possibly make that statement! Aren't you, knowing what we both know now - and bearing in mind you and I aren't doing it 9-5, 5 days a week?) (Yours etc, Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells LOL)

Emma - I just thought half units make it easier for people not needing that much insulin, that's all. And surely everyone has to round up or down on MDI - what would you do if it adds up to eg 17g or 28g carb?
 
Yes I use my tummy. One side for short and the other for long acting. Would changing the site change the absorption? 🙂
Generally, insulin is absorbed more slowly from bottom and thighs, more quickly from tummy and arms. However, injecting into legs before exercise will result in faster than usual absorption.
 
Had you considered that 2u as a correction only (you didn't say it was for a correction so it appeared you'd taken it for the meal) was too high to correct the high, therefore your insulin to correct, ratio needs to change, as well as your carb ratio, don't you think?

Also the site thing - if one side is for fast and the other for slow, you are having at least 3x as many jabs in one side of your tum than the other, aren't you? OTOH for the purpose of jabbing the tummy actually stretches from just under your underwires and doesn't stop till it reached the top of your pubes, except for a 1.5 ins circle round your navel, so even on a shortarse like me, there's quite a bit of room!

Actually - most places that are virgin sites wherever they happen to be - are usually good absorption areas since multiple jabs in the same-ish area, builds up scar tissue within the dermis itself and can cause either total loss of fat there or nasty lumps.
 
I've never ever had anyone say 1u to 10g was 'perfect' Kooky - I was always taught that it's just an easy (ie the maths is easy) place to START dose adjusting when learning to carb count and dose adjust - which you thereafter fiddle with constantly till you get to the point (ie the correct insulin to carb ratio) that is in fact right for YOU personally 9 times out of 10. (I'm a bit gobsmacked as to how anybody who works with a reasonable number of different diabetics, could possibly make that statement! Aren't you, knowing what we both know now - and bearing in mind you and I aren't doing it 9-5, 5 days a week?) (Yours etc, Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells LOL)

Emma - I just thought half units make it easier for people not needing that much insulin, that's all. And surely everyone has to round up or down on MDI - what would you do if it adds up to eg 17g or 28g carb?

I have a great deal to be disgusted about TW not least that they dispatched me from hospital with blood sugar that only registered as hi on my meter, so I'm fairly used to it 🙄 In this instance though it was an argument about where to start not wher they thought I'd stay, 1:10 was the starting point they wanted with very slow moves up or down. To be fair to them I don't think they were prepared for quite how resilient my liver was in compensating. Any how a half unit pen is a godsend so I heartily recommend it.
 
In addition to all the above advice, have you been tested for coeliac? If you are type 1 (and also since you have autoimmune conditions in the family with your Dad being type 1), you have an increased risk of coeliac, and this can cause delayed absorption of food, which could lead to some of the problems you are having. Worth ruling this out!
 
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