Breakfast

[42istheanswer]

Few bread recipes I use contain sugar and my yeast is active.

I didn't say sugar was essential, I said that was why it is often in recipes, to activate it. I believe it is thought to activate quicker then, and often dried yeast will advise you to mix with lukewarm water with a little sugar before adding it to the recipe. I believe it converts some of the starch from the flour once it's going

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It'll work with just flour, but I use instant yeast, and the sugar just gives it a faster start.
It's makes no difference to the bread, it's only around a tea spoon full, and the flour is way more than that.

 

[Drummer]

I think that the instant yeast might be a development of the STIM yeast I tested back in the 1970s when I worked for Allied Lyons - it was selected for higher amylase so that it could break down starch and feed itself from the flour rather than needing to be activated with a small amount of sugar in warm water.
The bread mix was formulated with large crystals of salt so that the yeast was able to work better and then the second kneading would distribute the by then dissolved salt through the dough. They had problems from time to time with people complaining that there was broken glass in their mix.
The commercial side sold large packs of bread mix with 'strewing flour' - with added salt, to use when forming the loaves/rolls.

 

[Eddy Edson]

And who are these mainstream experts. Where is your source ?

The mainstream position as I understand it goes like this: genetics+inactivity+visceral fat+maybe other environmental stuff => insulin resistance => T2D. See eg the NIDDK: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-in...at-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance

What causes insulin resistance and prediabetes?​

Researchers don’t fully understand what causes insulin resistance and prediabetes, but they think excess weight and lack of physical activity are major factors.

Excess weight​

Experts believe obesity, especially too much fat in the abdomen and around the organs, called visceral fat, is a main cause of insulin resistance. A waist measurement of 40 inches or more for men and 35 inches or more for women is linked to insulin resistance. This is true even if your body mass index (BMI) falls within the normal range. However, research has shown that Asian Americans may have an increased risk for insulin resistance even without a high BMI.

Researchers used to think that fat tissue was only for energy storage. However, studies have shown that belly fat makes hormones and other substances that can contribute to chronic, or long-lasting, inflammation in the body. Inflammation may play a role in insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.

Excess weight may lead to insulin resistance, which in turn may play a part in the development of fatty liver disease.

Physical inactivity​

Not getting enough physical activity is linked to insulin resistance and prediabetes. Regular physical activity causes changes in your body that make it better able to keep your blood glucose levels in balance.

You can certainly find studies which suggest that maybe carbohydrate quality is an independent risk factor for insulin resistance - most commonly, finding an association between high GI diets and IR. But as can be seen by the fact that the NIDDK and other expert bodies don't incorporate these studies into guidance, they are generally seen as not of high quality and not powerful enough to adjust for confounders like visceral fat gain.

Believers in the "carbohydrate insulin model" wouild say that it goes carbs => insulin resistance => visceral fat, but that's certainly not the mainstream position and FWIW I think that rigorous experiments over the years by Kevin Hall and others have invalidated it pretty comprehensively.

 

[Jotheboat]

The mainstream position as I understand it goes like this: genetics+inactivity+visceral fat+maybe other environmental stuff => insulin resistance => T2D. See eg the NIDDK: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-in...at-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance

What causes insulin resistance and prediabetes?​

Researchers don’t fully understand what causes insulin resistance and prediabetes, but they think excess weight and lack of physical activity are major factors.

Excess weight​

Experts believe obesity, especially too much fat in the abdomen and around the organs, called visceral fat, is a main cause of insulin resistance. A waist measurement of 40 inches or more for men and 35 inches or more for women is linked to insulin resistance. This is true even if your body mass index (BMI) falls within the normal range. However, research has shown that Asian Americans may have an increased risk for insulin resistance even without a high BMI.

Researchers used to think that fat tissue was only for energy storage. However, studies have shown that belly fat makes hormones and other substances that can contribute to chronic, or long-lasting, inflammation in the body. Inflammation may play a role in insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.

Excess weight may lead to insulin resistance, which in turn may play a part in the development of fatty liver disease.

Physical inactivity​

Not getting enough physical activity is linked to insulin resistance and prediabetes. Regular physical activity causes changes in your body that make it better able to keep your blood glucose levels in balance.

You can certainly find studies which suggest that maybe carbohydrate quality is an independent risk factor for insulin resistance - most commonly, finding an association between high GI diets and IR. But as can be seen by the fact that the NIDDK and other expert bodies don't incorporate these studies into guidance, they are generally seen as not of high quality and not powerful enough to adjust for confounders like visceral fat gain.

Believers in the "carbohydrate insulin model" wouild say that it goes carbs => insulin resistance => visceral fat, but that's certainly not the mainstream position and FWIW I think that rigorous experiments over the years by Kevin Hall and others have invalidated it pretty comprehensively.

I'm afraid, that for me at least, the diet he recommends through the NIDDK is certainly not for me. It has similarities to the NHS (UK) Healthy Plate and quite a lot of it goes against what I believe - what seems to have worked for me.

You can see the NIDDKs recommendations by scrolling down here
Example, "Use oils (canola) when cooking food instead of butter, cream, shortening, lard, or stick margarine."

They are government sponsored and as such may be 'advised' what to say, at least in some areas.

I'm sure they do some great work in many other areas, but not on this point.

 

[Dragonheart]

mainstream experts would say there is sod-all evidence that carbs and added sugar actually cause T2D, except to the extent that they contribute to eating too many calories and increasing visceral fat. The idea that carbs, added sugar etc => insulin resistance => T2D is a minority, pretty much fringe concept.

Well considering sugar has no nutritional benefit other than a shot of glucose I’d say it very much contributes to excess energy and fat storage.

Also high carb intake results in high insulin production in response. Running with consistent/regular high glucose and insulin (even whilst it is still successfully keeping hb1ac in check) not only adds to the excess weight risk factor but also builds resistance to insulin directly, requiring more insulin and creating more resistance potentially leading to raised blood glucose levels eventually and a diagnosis. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0026049506003465

Considering both the ADA and this forum’s organisation and the NHS recognise the role of carbs and sugar in T2 diabetes I’d not call it a fringe concept.

 

[bulkbiker]

rigorous experiments over the years by Kevin Hall and others have invalidated it pretty comprehensively.

Except that none of Hall's studies have ever done this..

Most have been of very short duration so drawing any conclusions is virtually impossible and I guarantee that the word "proof" has never been used in any of the conclusions.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The mainstream position as I understand it goes like this: genetics+inactivity+visceral fat+maybe other environmental stuff => insulin resistance => T2D.........

Yes, genetic disposition from my uncles side, moving from out of the field into a desk job with expenses and an entertainments budget, certainly ticks all the boxes.
Losing the fat, hitting the gym, (I can't do anything about the genetics) certainly reversed it.

 

[Eddy Edson]

Except that none of Hall's studies have ever done this..

Most have been of very short duration so drawing any conclusions is virtually impossible

That's been a criticism from the CIM people but I think KH's responses to it have been pretty compelling.

 

[Eddy Edson]

Well considering sugar has no nutritional benefit other than a shot of glucose I’d say it very much contributes to excess energy and fat storage.

Yes, that's why I said that the mainstream doesn't see carbs as causing insulin resistance as a precursor to T2D except to the extent that they contribute to energy excess.

Also high carb intake results in high insulin production in response. Running with consistent/regular high glucose and insulin (even whilst it is still successfully keeping hb1ac in check)

You are talking about a situation where there is already insulin resistance.

Considering both the ADA and this forum’s organisation and the NHS recognise the role of carbs and sugar in T2 diabetes I’d not call it a fringe concept.

All of these highlight the role of overweight/visceral fat in insulin resistance & as far as I can see none say that carbs are causal for insulin resistance in the absence of excess energy.

DUK: https://www.diabetes.org.uk/guide-t...tes/treating-your-diabetes/insulin/resistance

Insulin resistance is more likely if you have too much fat stored in and around your liver and pancreas.

ADA: https://diabetes.org/healthy-living/medication-treatments/insulin-resistance

Scientists are beginning to get a better understanding of how insulin resistance develops. For starters, several genes have been identified that make a person more or less likely to develop the condition. It's also known that older people are more prone to insulin resistance. Lifestyle can play a role, too. Being sedentary, overweight or obese increases the risk for insulin resistance.

 

[Dianusia]

The mainstream position as I understand it goes like this: genetics+inactivity+visceral fat+maybe other environmental stuff => insulin resistance => T2D. See eg the NIDDK: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-in...at-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance

What causes insulin resistance and prediabetes?​

Researchers don’t fully understand what causes insulin resistance and prediabetes, but they think excess weight and lack of physical activity are major factors.

Excess weight​

Experts believe obesity, especially too much fat in the abdomen and around the organs, called visceral fat, is a main cause of insulin resistance. A waist measurement of 40 inches or more for men and 35 inches or more for women is linked to insulin resistance. This is true even if your body mass index (BMI) falls within the normal range. However, research has shown that Asian Americans may have an increased risk for insulin resistance even without a high BMI.

Researchers used to think that fat tissue was only for energy storage. However, studies have shown that belly fat makes hormones and other substances that can contribute to chronic, or long-lasting, inflammation in the body. Inflammation may play a role in insulin resistance, type 2 diabetes, and cardiovascular disease.

Excess weight may lead to insulin resistance, which in turn may play a part in the development of fatty liver disease.

Physical inactivity​

Not getting enough physical activity is linked to insulin resistance and prediabetes. Regular physical activity causes changes in your body that make it better able to keep your blood glucose levels in balance.

You can certainly find studies which suggest that maybe carbohydrate quality is an independent risk factor for insulin resistance - most commonly, finding an association between high GI diets and IR. But as can be seen by the fact that the NIDDK and other expert bodies don't incorporate these studies into guidance, they are generally seen as not of high quality and not powerful enough to adjust for confounders like visceral fat gain.

Believers in the "carbohydrate insulin model" wouild say that it goes carbs => insulin resistance => visceral fat, but that's certainly not the mainstream position and FWIW I think that rigorous experiments over the years by Kevin Hall and others have invalidated it pretty comprehensively.

I would add processed food to that list, whatever the “mainstream” position is. There are more additives in food now than there were when I was growing up and certainly a factor to consider.

 

[Dragonheart]

You are talking about a situation where there is already insulin resistance.

No I wasn’t. Eating carbs results in insulin production (assuming you are not type 1or otherwise unable to produce insulin). That’s how humans work. I was talking about high insulin caused by high carbs leading to insulin resistance, as a separate mechanism to the overweight/visceral fat causing it (which I’m not disputing either btw). Did you read the link?

 

[bulkbiker]

the mainstream doesn't see carbs as causing insulin resistance as a precursor to T2D except to the extent that they contribute to energy excess.

The carbs lead to hyperinsulinaemia which then leads to insulin resistance.

 

[Jotheboat]

The mainstream position as I understand it goes like this: genetics+inactivity+visceral fat+maybe other environmental stuff => insulin resistance => T2D. See eg the NIDDK: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-in...at-is-diabetes/prediabetes-insulin-resistance

Not sure you're quite right there. What it says within that link is: "People who have genetic or lifestyle risk factors are more likely to develop insulin resistance or prediabetes."
That's genetic OR lifestyle factors. With genetic, there is no re-direct to having a pre-disposition to T2.
But with lifestyle factors there is a great deal we can do. Listed under that NIDDK quote are some risk factors:

• overweight or obesity
• age 45 or older
• a parent, brother, or sister with diabetes
• African American, Alaska Native, American Indian, Asian American, Hispanic/Latino, Native Hawaiian, or Pacific Islander American ethnicity
• physical inactivity
• health conditions such as high blood pressure and abnormal cholesterol levels
• a history of gestational diabetes
• a history of heart disease or stroke
• polycystic ovary syndrome, also called PCOS

(In addition there are also influencing medical conditions)

Overweight or obesity (which are top of the list there) are certainly influenced by our diet. That includes excess sugar / glucose, excess carbs and highly processed stuff. These are risk factors for insulin resistance and pre-diabetes and full blown T2.

And, right back to my orginal point in this thread, I believe we are being mislead regarding nutrition. If not mislead, certainly having much information withheld. Perhaps because of the bright, sunny advertising on breakfast cereals (and other foods - some frozen foods for example) we are led to believe they are healthy, when in fact, particularly for anyone with a genetic predisposition, or those already with excess weight on the cusp of a T2 diagnosis, they are not.
Until I developed T2 and started really delving, I believed they were healthy too.

 

[helli]

Apologies, I have only read this thread and not any of the referenced material.
Within the thread, I see nothing that explains why some people can eat lots of carbs and not become insulin resistant.
The comments here suggest it is a given: if you eat an unhealthy diet and gain weight, you will definitely get type 2 diabetes. However, I know plenty of people (of all ages) who have eaten a very carb-biased diet (more so that the "evil" eatwellplate) for decades and do not have type 2 diabetes or prediabetes. I have elderly relatives who do not consider a meal complete without a pile of bread on the side to go with their chips.
If this does not point to a genetic predisposition, I do not understand what it could be.

(I suspect the need for bread is a tradition of cheap food to fill up on. Yes we can argue about whether it can sate your appetite for long but a loaf of sliced white bread is cheaper than putting more meat on your plate.)

 

[bulkbiker]

why some people can eat lots of carbs

Because it takes a long time... some people can eat carbs all their life and not get the side effects but remember mankind became mankind through eating a meat heavy diet with seasonal fruit to fatten up before long hard winters.
The people who gained body fat easily then were the survivors.. now however with the abundance of food the seasonal nature of our eating has been corrupted. Throw in highly processed "non food" like breakfast cereal , cakes, mad combinations of carbs and fats like ice cream and pizza and you can start to see where we have gone wrong. Throw noxious seed oils into the mix and you get what we can currently see in the USA. An adult population where 80% are metabolically unhealthy.

 

[Jotheboat]

Apologies, I have only read this thread and not any of the referenced material.
Within the thread, I see nothing that explains why some people can eat lots of carbs and not become insulin resistant.
The comments here suggest it is a given: if you eat an unhealthy diet and gain weight, you will definitely get type 2 diabetes. However, I know plenty of people (of all ages) who have eaten a very carb-biased diet (more so that the "evil" eatwellplate) for decades and do not have type 2 diabetes or prediabetes. I have elderly relatives who do not consider a meal complete without a pile of bread on the side to go with their chips.
If this does not point to a genetic predisposition, I do not understand what it could be.

(I suspect the need for bread is a tradition of cheap food to fill up on. Yes we can argue about whether it can sate your appetite for long but a loaf of sliced white bread is cheaper than putting more meat on your plate.)

I know people who have smoked al their lives and are still hacking along a at 90+. That doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.

Nobody is suggesting that loads of carbs = T2.
What I (and other agree I think) is that the trend is towards eating more and more carby / sugary / processed foods and the rates of obesity / being overweight / T2 are on the rise.
Children's excess weight it is perhaps the most alarming, an increasing proportion of whom may well go on to develop T2 in the future.

The other point, perhaps, and this is only my speculation here, is that the elderly (that's me, 63, and the generation above for example) did eat plenty of bread / breakfast cereals / carbs, but we mixed with healthier stuff too. Meat / fish / veg. There was far less processed food about in the 50s and 60s. Far less seed oils too, either to cook with or included within the manufacture of things.
I just feel that things are getting worse, particularly for the younger generations.

For the record, I used to be a baker! Hot bread, fresh meat pies, cakes. I REALLY wish somebody could tell me that they wouldn't affect my T2 these days!

 

[nonethewiser]

Apologies, I have only read this thread and not any of the referenced material.
Within the thread, I see nothing that explains why some people can eat lots of carbs and not become insulin resistant.
The comments here suggest it is a given: if you eat an unhealthy diet and gain weight, you will definitely get type 2 diabetes. However, I know plenty of people (of all ages) who have eaten a very carb-biased diet (more so that the "evil" eatwellplate) for decades and do not have type 2 diabetes or prediabetes. I have elderly relatives who do not consider a meal complete without a pile of bread on the side to go with their chips.
If this does not point to a genetic predisposition, I do not understand what it could be.

(I suspect the need for bread is a tradition of cheap food to fill up on. Yes we can argue about whether it can sate your appetite for long but a loaf of sliced white bread is cheaper than putting more meat on your plate.)

Some good points, more to it than we know me thinks.

 

[Mumpie_olgran]

I'm type 1 and have never been too interested in nutrition but since diagnosis I sure dig in a lot deeper than before... So thanks to all the posters on this thread. There's some really interesting stuff.

And I enjoy a good (respectful) debate. Just wanted to say that while reading it, I have intermittently shouted "yeah", I just won't say to which posts 😉

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I know people who have smoked al their lives and are still hacking along a at 90+. That doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.

Nobody is suggesting that loads of carbs = T2.
What I (and other agree I think) is that the trend is towards eating more and more carby / sugary / processed foods and the rates of obesity / being overweight / T2 are on the rise.
Children's excess weight it is perhaps the most alarming, an increasing proportion of whom may well go on to develop T2 in the future.

The other point, perhaps, and this is only my speculation here, is that the elderly (that's me, 63, and the generation above for example) did eat plenty of bread / breakfast cereals / carbs, but we mixed with healthier stuff too. Meat / fish / veg. There was far less processed food about in the 50s and 60s. Far less seed oils too, either to cook with or included within the manufacture of things.
I just feel that things are getting worse, particularly for the younger generations.

For the record, I used to be a baker! Hot bread, fresh meat pies, cakes. I REALLY wish somebody could tell me that they wouldn't affect my T2 these days!

My parents only ever used sunflower seed oil, my mum lived on white bread sandwiches mostly.
Potatoes in every family meal.
Very carb and seed oil heavy.
Died very skinny in her 90's.
She always walked everywhere, shopped with her shopping trolley, did the washing in a single tub machine, a lot of exercise.