Bread and wheat. Sigh.

A

Amyfaith

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
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Hi all,
To follow up from something I suspected in another thread: bread is definitely a problem for me and really does send my blood sugar skyrocketing according to finger tests (not crazy high, not beyond 8.5 generally, but way higher than an equivalent amount of carbs from another source). 30g carbs from veg/fruit/oats/potato(!)/sugar(!! - like a chocolate)? Barely crack a 7, maybe 7.5. 30 from bread? Into the 8s (again, not bad but not ideal), regardless of what I have it with or how much exercise I do after. This is at the 1 hour mark rather than the 2 hour mark (I was curious what the height of this was), but even at 2 hours we're looking at mid-7s, which again is a lot higher than equivalent amounts of carbs from other foods and similar starting lines (usually mid-low 5s), and it takes lots longer to come down. This explains earlier issues around pasta as well.

Now obviously I should minimise my intake of this in response, but I was already down to just a single slice as part of sandwich. I seem to be much more sensitive to wheat than other carbs, and I remember someone saying they had a similar issue with pulses. So does anyone else have this reaction to wheat? What alternatives have you tried? I am wondering if gluten free bread is an option and will get a small loaf to experiment with, but wonder if anyone else has similar issues and what they've done in response. (For work I've gone Bento box style and have oat cakes instead of bread, but sometimes you just want eggs on toast!)
 
Yes, I am very responsive to wheat and I simply cut out bread etc from my menu although I do have it on rare social occasions when that is all that is on offer and it would be rude or awkward not to.
That said, your results are not bad at all and to be honest I would not worry too much about having a slice of bread a day if you can keep it down to mid 8s 2 hours post meal which you seem to be doing. You are not looking for the peak of the spike from the carbs you ate, just that your body dealt is dealing with it in a timely manner by the 2 hour point, so if you are less than 3 mmols higher than your premeal reading at 2 hours post meal then that is fine. Try not to get sucked into trying to get better and better results as quality of life is also important as is sustainability of your diet. I think the widespread availability of Libre and the plethora of internet "gurus" has led people into chasing unrealistic and unnatural targets. Getting 8.5mmols 2 hours after a meal is fine. Less is good of course but not essential for good diabetes management or even remission, especially if it is just one meal a day which is doing that and other meals are less high.
 
Thanks @rebrascora - I do get a little over enthusiastic! I think I’m still befuddled about how my results came back significantly higher than finger pricks would suggest, and would really like to get in the low 40s, just for my own sake. I know the Hba1c and the finger pricks measure slightly different things (not just the measurement of one being over time and the one being at that instant), so I’m just trying to find the problem behaviour/food/whatever. And especially trying to figure this out while I’m not exhausted from work/etc as I would be during term time, thus the experiments.

(Yes I know this is probably impossible to science my way through like this. My curiosity is sometimes insatiable, though!)
 
I am all for experimenting, so definitely don't want to discourage you from doing that but just warning against getting sucked into chasing unrealistic targets which can then easily become your new norm and then you may not be able to take a step back and ease off a little and that can lead to burn out.
I am also conscious that many other people read these posts and might think that they also need to be achieving unrealistic targets. If you can achieve less than 8.5mmols 2hours post meal, for MOST of your meals, you are doing great. If the odd one goes over every now and then don't worry about it. The time to do some reassessing is if it gradually increases to more than half being above that level..... usually due to carb creep. 🙄
 
Ha- I just wrote a massive paragraph and realised it was me trying to go 'no, I'm not going to get burn out and here's why!', so I've deleted it! :rofl: I'm muddling through, same as the rest, just with an anxiety disorder that needs information to chill out. Frontloading the stress can sometimes help a little with me, but a lot of my confusion it is down to conflicting information around goals/how to get your body to cooperate/how finger pricks do (or do not) translate into Hba1c results.

I think the thing that confuses me is this: I can't figure out whether the peak is more important or the 2 hour number (seems to depend on who you read - and yes, I stay away from the charlatans like Spector and the GG and the rest). Presumably it's the speed of clearance that's more important because glycation takes a *long* time, thus the 3mmol rise/8.5 max? If so, I'll keep to just 2 hour tests - I just keep seeing that people should be returning towards fasting levels at 2 hours, which isn't what I see on this website and others directed specifically at diabetics, and I'm not wholly sure about the reasons for this. It does seem my body clears most things pretty consistently and efficiently these days, best I can tell, which is good, but then I'm back to that question of why my Hba1c was still in the diabetic zone despite everything else...
 
Actually, I think Tim Spectre and Jesse Inschauspe both have some interesting and useful things to say and whilst I would not necessarily follow everything they suggest, I listen and read with an open mind and pick and choose what makes sense and works for me and fits in with my lifestyle.

I just think that trying to keep spikes from food unrealistically low all the time is too much of a strain for the average person who has a real life to lead and that near enough is near enough. Occasionally my levels spike up to 15 and maybe a couple of times a year even a bit higher. It is the nature of managing diabetes with insulin, and whilst I dislike it when it happens and it is frustrating, it isn't going to kill me and my HbA1c is usually about 45-50 and my consultant is really very happy with that and I don't foresee that causing me any problems in the long run, so I do wonder if there is too much pressure on Type 2s to achieve remission or try for remission when there is very, very little risk from readings around the diagnosis level.

Diabetes management is all about balance and I have to keep reassessing my balance to work out what is best for my overall health. So some days if I am stressed and really struggling mentally I will make life a little easier by relaxing my diet a little. It might be that I treat myself and buy a BLT sandwich just because it is easy and I haven't eaten all day and that sandwich is still an awful lot heathier than a snicker or mars bar that I might have eaten before diagnosis. You just have to find the balance for you and your body and your lifestyle. That may involve medication for some people, I need insulin, or diet for others either to lose weight or to manage their levels by eating low carb and/or exercise for others. We are all different and that is why there is so much conflicting advice.
 
Hi @Amyfaith. In the early days when my HbA1c went wonk and I started to look at foods to see what was what and I quite quickly identified that my system seemed to be pretty good at processing wheat flour into glucose. It did not seem to matter where it was used... bread(any), pastry, cakes... it was a big hitter in my diet. Oats were not so much a problem. As such I would echo much of what has been said. Not all carbohydrates are equal for everybody and it is very handy when you can narrow down on things that you as an individual are particularly susceptible to.

I have not given up flour altogether, just limit it by aiming for consuming it when it comes in small amounts in interesting way. I make my own bread and eat it in small amounts...no shop bought meat pies or pasties but I might be tempted by a something made with a thin layer of fine pastry... small highly flavoured cakes. Swap quantity for quality.

And keep experimenting and measuring. I made some Staffordshire oat cakes this afternoon (oatmeal with a bit of wholemeal and plain flour) and had three for my tea used as wraps for sausage/bacon/mushrooms and cheese - a delicacy that only somebody born in the potteries would appreciate. Did not push me into double figures so I'll take that.
 
rebrascora said:
I do wonder if there is too much pressure on Type 2s to achieve remission or try for remission when there is very, very little risk from readings around the diagnosis level.
Click to expand...
I think this is the bit that is simultaneously confusing and frustrating for me - Type 2s managed by diet and 'lifestyle' (I really, really hate that term) seem to be left to their own devices, which places the onus on us for everything. Even if they aren't actively blaming us for our condition, the narrative provided is that if we don't improve, it's a personal failing - and thus we strive as good of control as we can, idealise remission numbers, all that. If someone told me that x result, even if it's in a diagnosable category, is fine and unlikely to cause me issues, that would alleviate a lot of my stress. I really, really wish I just had somewhere I could ask technical questions, but I'm apparently not diabetic enough to get any specialist appointments, much less get any information of note. [This probably belongs in the thread on perceptions of diabetics, really - sorry!]
 
Docb said:
Hi @Amyfaith. In the early days when my HbA1c went wonk and I started to look at foods to see what was what and I quite quickly identified that my system seemed to be pretty good at processing wheat flour into glucose. It did not seem to matter where it was used... bread(any), pastry, cakes... it was a big hitter in my diet. Oats were not so much a problem. As such I would echo much of what has been said. Not all carbohydrates are equal for everybody and it is very handy when you can narrow down on things that you as an individual are particularly susceptible to.

I have not given up flour altogether, just limit it by aiming for consuming it when it comes in small amounts in interesting way. I make my own bread and eat it in small amounts...no shop bought meat pies or pasties but I might be tempted by a something made with a thin layer of fine pastry... small highly flavoured cakes. Swap quantity for quality.

And keep experimenting and measuring. I made some Staffordshire oat cakes this afternoon (oatmeal with a bit of wholemeal and plain flour) and had three for my tea used as wraps for sausage/bacon/mushrooms and cheese - a delicacy that only somebody born in the potteries would appreciate. Did not push me into double figures so I'll take that.
Click to expand...
I am verrry tempted to try to make oat bread - just something to dip in soup would be nice! (well, not with weather like today, but in November, sure.) I'm not like outlawing wheat products - far from it - but just trying to sort through unexpected results (even if they're all more or less fine by the usual measurements). It *would* explain the super high Hba1c right after Christmas, though - a LOT of homemade pizza with a LOT of flour over December...!

Overall I am swapping quantity for quality. When I was away the other week, I hit a Lindt store and bought a slew of their little truffles - all different flavours. A single one (5g carbs) as a dessert is *exactly* right, so I'm stocked up for a few months. I've been doing similar things with other treats (maybe once a week at most I'll add something small but special and fancy). Now if I can only figure out how to make myself a very small cake that wouldn't hurt my blood sugars too much, we'd be back in business!
 
sugarfreelondoner has a lot of recipes for low carb cakes and biscuits on their website/you tube channel.
@Martin62 used to do a weekly low carb bake and post photos of his muffins, cup cakes and loaves here on the forum in the food section.
 
Amyfaith said:
I think this is the bit that is simultaneously confusing and frustrating for me - Type 2s managed by diet and 'lifestyle' (I really, really hate that term) seem to be left to their own devices, which places the onus on us for everything. Even if they aren't actively blaming us for our condition, the narrative provided is that if we don't improve, it's a personal failing - and thus we strive as good of control as we can, idealise remission numbers, all that. If someone told me that x result, even if it's in a diagnosable category, is fine and unlikely to cause me issues, that would alleviate a lot of my stress. I really, really wish I just had somewhere I could ask technical questions, but I'm apparently not diabetic enough to get any specialist appointments, much less get any information of note. [This probably belongs in the thread on perceptions of diabetics, really - sorry!]
Click to expand...
It looks from your results that whatever you are doing is working for you and having found out what is suiting you then cutting back on the testing if your meal is something you have had before may not be needed and just test if it is something new that you think you will have regularly. Keeping a daily or every few days check may be worthwhile looking for the trend as opposed to the absolute numbers as you are likely to get variation day to day anyway, just because.
As those of who worked in the biological area realise biological systems sometimes just do their own thing and you need many many replicates to iron out natural variation
 
rebrascora said:
sugarfreelondoner has a lot of recipes for low carb cakes and biscuits on their website/you tube channel.
@Martin62 used to do a weekly low carb bake and post photos of his muffins, cup cakes and loaves here on the forum in the food section.
Click to expand...
I still do my weekly bakes, just haven't been posting pictures .
 
Amyfaith said:
. Now if I can only figure out how to make myself a very small cake that wouldn't hurt my blood sugars too much, we'd be back in business!
Click to expand...
Here is my solution to that....not nearly as adventurous as @Martin62.

DocB's brownie. Get 100g or really high coco chocolate (I like 85% Moser Roth from Aldi), put it in a bowl with half a block of unsalted butter and microwave for a couple of minutes to melt everything. Meanwhile whisk up two eggs with 90-100g of soft brown sugar (about half that used in the formal recipe) until the mix is thick and about 3 times the initial volume. Tip into that the microwaved butter and choc and gently stir until combined with an even dark colour. Sieve into the mix 56g of plain flour and 26g of cocoa powder and gently stir to combine everything. If you want to can the chop up some more high cocoa chocolate and stir that in as well.

I cook mine in small cake moulds with about a big tablespoonful of batter in each. I get 9 brownies, from my mix. Bake for about 9 minutes at 180C. Better under than over.

Put on plate with a big dollop of sour cream and eat with a teaspoon, savouring each morsel of brownie and cream. Goes well with a mug of tea. No idea how many carbs but the effect of one brownie on my BG is well within tolerances and I'lltake that.

PS... DocB's cooking rules apply....you are not making something to look good on Instagram. It does not matter what it looks like, if it is edible (and few things are actually inedible) it is a success. Don't be frightened if you have to fiddle about with the recipe - its amazing what you can get away with if you keep it to yourself.

Have a go...you might surprise yourself.
😎
 
I’m not sure how much difference any of this really makes in practice… but for what it’s worth, here are some snippets that might be worth considering if you want to keep bread as an option. They are things I’ve picked up over more than a decade on forums. Some I’ve tried, others I’ve just thought “that’s interesting”. Your Diabetes May Vary etc.

And bear in mind I have rapid acting insulin that should make anything possible, and I still find bread a bit tricky.

First, and obvious. Seeds. This is something I have had some success with. Seeds are harder to break down. And many of them go straight through. The more seeds in your slice, the more room they take up, and the less space for rocket-fuel flour there is. Seedy loaves make more difference than wholemeal flour in my experience.

Rye seems a decent option for my metabolism too. Especially if seedy rye?!

Some say that part of the problem is the varieties of wheat now used, and how they have been developed. More primitive types like ‘spelt’ might be better?

Others suggest that part of the problem is how finely milled the flours now are, and that choosing stoneground loaves might help

Good luck with your ongoing n=1 experiments. Let us know what you find out 🙂
 
I've tried all these different types of bread but love a white loaf - have worked out how much insulin to take (at different ratios depending on time of day) to cope with it (wholemeal bread gave me shocking heartburn!) - it's not an exact science and it's taken me a while to get there but it is possible
 
Its not a cake, but you can make a rather nice 'shortbread slice' by mixing 50 / 50 desicated coconut and ground almond in a liquidser til it can hold a shape and use that as the base, pressing into a browney pan. Make chocolate topping with high cocoa chocolate, butter or coconut oil, and sweetner (erythritol)...melt, pour over. You can add mint or orange flavoring
 
I’m afraid I’m Type 2, @mashedupmatt, just on diet and exercise, so it’s more just finding out that I’m more sensitive to wheat and trying to find ways around it.
 
Docb said:
Here is my solution to that....not nearly as adventurous as @Martin62.

DocB's brownie. Get 100g or really high coco chocolate (I like 85% Moser Roth from Aldi), put it in a bowl with half a block of unsalted butter and microwave for a couple of minutes to melt everything. Meanwhile whisk up two eggs with 90-100g of soft brown sugar (about half that used in the formal recipe) until the mix is thick and about 3 times the initial volume. Tip into that the microwaved butter and choc and gently stir until combined with an even dark colour. Sieve into the mix 56g of plain flour and 26g of cocoa powder and gently stir to combine everything. If you want to can the chop up some more high cocoa chocolate and stir that in as well.

I cook mine in small cake moulds with about a big tablespoonful of batter in each. I get 9 brownies, from my mix. Bake for about 9 minutes at 180C. Better under than over.

Put on plate with a big dollop of sour cream and eat with a teaspoon, savouring each morsel of brownie and cream. Goes well with a mug of tea. No idea how many carbs but the effect of one brownie on my BG is well within tolerances and I'lltake that.

PS... DocB's cooking rules apply....you are not making something to look good on Instagram. It does not matter what it looks like, if it is edible (and few things are actually inedible) it is a success. Don't be frightened if you have to fiddle about with the recipe - its amazing what you can get away with if you keep it to yourself.

Have a go...you might surprise yourself.
😎
Click to expand...
Very similar to my old favourite brownie recipe. Might do some playing about, see what happens. Not sure when my next Hba1c will be so I can probably experiment a lot more wildly and not worry about it impacting much.
 
everydayupsanddowns said:
I’m not sure how much difference any of this really makes in practice… but for what it’s worth, here are some snippets that might be worth considering if you want to keep bread as an option. They are things I’ve picked up over more than a decade on forums. Some I’ve tried, others I’ve just thought “that’s interesting”. Your Diabetes May Vary etc.

And bear in mind I have rapid acting insulin that should make anything possible, and I still find bread a bit tricky.

First, and obvious. Seeds. This is something I have had some success with. Seeds are harder to break down. And many of them go straight through. The more seeds in your slice, the more room they take up, and the less space for rocket-fuel flour there is. Seedy loaves make more difference than wholemeal flour in my experience.

Rye seems a decent option for my metabolism too. Especially if seedy rye?!

Some say that part of the problem is the varieties of wheat now used, and how they have been developed. More primitive types like ‘spelt’ might be better?

Others suggest that part of the problem is how finely milled the flours now are, and that choosing stoneground loaves might help

Good luck with your ongoing n=1 experiments. Let us know what you find out 🙂
Click to expand...
Interestingly, I was having (stoneground) rye, which is turns out I really like. Seeded might be an option, but most seem to include pumpkin seeds, which for some reason cause no end of issues for me. I wonder if my old whole meal homemade bread recipe, because it had milk and egg, might be less of a problem following the less-wheat-in-the-recipe theory.

Will see what the gluten free one does tomorrow for lunch.

Also. So glad I’ve clocked I can earn airmiles when I buy my testing supplies. Reward flight, ho!
 
Tdm said:
Its not a cake, but you can make a rather nice 'shortbread slice' by mixing 50 / 50 desicated coconut and ground almond in a liquidser til it can hold a shape and use that as the base, pressing into a browney pan. Make chocolate topping with high cocoa chocolate, butter or coconut oil, and sweetner (erythritol)...melt, pour over. You can add mint or orange flavoring
Click to expand...
Know if it’s fine with sucralose? Erythritol and me are very un-mixy things.
(Edited to make the auto-corrected Buffy joke work!)
 
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