Benefits of switching from Abasaglar to Tresiba

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mitchsi

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Type 1
Hi,

I’ve had a follow up appointment with the dietitician 2months after diagnosis and we discussed that I quite often see my BG rise in the evenings into early morning. She suggested that perhaps the Abasaglar is wearing off early (not exactly 24hrs for everyone) therefore switching to tresiba might be a good option.
I initially thought it a good idea but considering over 30days I have TIR of 88% it’s not imperative I swap to a new unknown right now.
However, if it’s a better insulin for control then I’d happily switch, I understand fine tuning it is not from one day to the next

Experience and advice appreciated,
 
It’s an individual choice @mitchsi I personally wouldn’t want to take Tresiba because its long-actingness wouldn’t work for me and I wouldn’t like it. When I take a pump break I use a twice-daily basal insulin, which gives more flexibility and means I can adjust each segment (day and night) as I need, and also adjust it for exercise or illness, etc.
 
Some people live Tresiba because it lasts so long compared to other insulins. You don't have to worry about it wearing off and it gives you flexibility when to take it - if you forget it you are out, you can take it a few hours later.

However, for some, the long level profile can cause issues. It means it takes 3 to 4 days for a change of dose to be noticed. If you rarely change your basal, this is not a problem. If you find your basal can vary from day to day during to exercise or hormones or weekends vs week days or ... Tresiba's lack of flexibility could be a problem and a shorter long acting insulin such as Levemir may be more suitable although you will need to take 2 basal doses each day.
 
Yeah, I’m still getting used to different sports effects on sensitivity. 3.5 hrs hard work in the garden sent me hypo in the early hours yesterday.
It may well make sense to keep with the current regime for some months.
 
Hi,

I’ve had a follow up appointment with the dietitician 2months after diagnosis and we discussed that I quite often see my BG rise in the evenings into early morning. She suggested that perhaps the Abasaglar is wearing off early (not exactly 24hrs for everyone) therefore switching to tresiba might be a good option.
I initially thought it a good idea but considering over 30days I have TIR of 88% it’s not imperative I swap to a new unknown right now.
However, if it’s a better insulin for control then I’d happily switch, I understand fine tuning it is not from one day to the next

Experience and advice appreciated,
I also found that Abasaglar was wearing off before 24 hours. Before my next appointment, I tried splitting my Abasaglar between morning and evening and that worked well for me. My split wasn't even (I took a bit more in the morning and a bit less in the evening), but I found what worked for me. After splitting, my numbers were pretty consistent day and night.

My endo said my basal was probably running out early because I was on a relatively low dose (9-11u per day) and while splitting Abasaglar isn't standard, if it worked for me, I should carry on.
 
I also found that Abasaglar was wearing off before 24 hours. Before my next appointment, I tried splitting my Abasaglar between morning and evening and that worked well for me. My split wasn't even (I took a bit more in the morning and a bit less in the evening), but I found what worked for me. After splitting, my numbers were pretty consistent day and night.

My endo said my basal was probably running out early because I was on a relatively low dose (9-11u per day) and while splitting Abasaglar isn't standard, if it worked for me, I should
I also found that Abasaglar was wearing off before 24 hours. Before my next appointment, I tried splitting my Abasaglar between morning and evening and that worked well for me. My split wasn't even (I took a bit more in the morning and a bit less in the evening), but I found what worked for me. After splitting, my numbers were pretty consistent day and night.

My endo said my basal was probably running out early because I was on a relatively low dose (9-11u per day) and while splitting Abasaglar isn't standard, if it worked for me, I should carry on.
Interesting, I’m on 22-24 abasaglar. I had a insulin and carb course today and could discuss again with the DSN, after that I’m going to try the tresiba and see how that goes.
 
Hope it works well for you @mitchsi

In part, I think it likely depends on how even a person’s basal needs are during the 24 hours. With a shorter acting basal insulin you have onset and fade to play with, which can help fine tune things (plus the option of splitting).

With newer ultra-long-acting basals you really need to have a fairly constant basal requirement in order to be able to find a dose that works through the 24 hours, rather than being too much here, and not enough there.
 
Thank you @everydayupsanddowns that’s a good point although I’d like to reduce how many times I need to inject, twice daily sounds to be a better idea. I’m ok to experiment a bit and try this for a while but having read others experiences the twice daily basal does seem a better solution. I’d hope to get on a pump sometime next year so this isn’t long term in any case.
Thanks
 
@mitchsi The main benefit of a pump is the ability to fine-tune your basal. You can vary it hour by hour according to your needs. As an example, I have basically zero insulin in the early hours of the night yet twice as much in the early morning as I do in the afternoon. Pumps give numerous tiny ‘injections’ over 24hrs. So, for anyone on MDI, the closest equivalent basals are the twice-daily ones, which allow you to not only vary day and night, but to time the two injections to make best use of the slight peak and wane.

When I take a pump break, I sometimes have three basal injections in an attempt to provide the more accurate coverage a pump gives.
 
Basal on MDI was always a bit of a Hobson’s Choice.

Though it did allow me to leave my diabetes paraphernalia at home now and again.
 
I do like my pump breaks @everydayupsanddowns It’s all very minimal. I haven’t had a pump break for two or three years now, but they’re nice. A change is as good as a rest, as they say. My TIR is very similar. A pump is easier in some ways, harder in others, as with MDI. No perfect answer, I’m afraid.
 
It is no secret, I love split dose Levemir for allowing me to tweak it to what my body needs and I can't imagine needing or wanting a pump because it works so well for me. It took time to understand how it works and to learn how to adjust it so that the peaks and overlaps worked to best effect by adjusting the time that I take it and you have to be prepared to experiment to get it right, but then from what I understand you also need to do quite a bit of tweaking with a pump and lots more things to tweak, so for me, Levemir is a nice halfway house.
Tresiba would not work for me because I need so much less basal insulin through the night than during the day and my night time basal needs are more affected (reduced) by exercise than my daytime ones, so sometimes I need none at all through the night but I can need up to 5 units. My morning dose is fairly stable on 22units but will come down to 20 if I do several consecutive days of strenuous exercise.

I don't know if you are male or female but that ight also be a consideration with Tresiba, because monthly cycles often warrant a different basal dose and Tresiba is not particularly amenable to regular changes in dose because it takes so long for changes to have an impact.
 
I love split dose Levemir for allowing me to tweak it to what my body needs and I can't imagine needing or wanting a pump because it works so well for me.
It works fine for me, too. I'm also not that interested in a pump for that reason. (A pump as part of HCL is something that is appealing, if and when I have a chance to explore that more. So probably a few years away.)
 
I’m male so I don’t have the konthly cycle as an extra complication but having seen, well everyone here, prior posts and learnt about twice basal injections it does seem appealing. I don’t mind experimenting, it all helps me learn how my body is reacting.
the good thing is my DSN are accessible if I want to change again. I have to say where I am I have had great service so far with the diabetes outpatient clinic.
 
Steve, @mitchsi, I suspect that you'll split your Abasglar and tinker with the ratios until you find a formula that works for you. If you do, don't be surprised if your daily total of basal insulin turns out to be a bit less than your single Abasglar dose. By splitting the Abasglar each part MIGHT provide a slightly more efficient use of the overall basal insulin and thus needing a bit less daily requirement. Once you've found that perfect 'sweet mix' also don't be surprised that the following week its no longer perfect and you have to do it all over again; weather changes, different workloads, family needs are just a few of the many things that will come out to play with you!

Should you decide to try Tresiba just be very clear that it's not simply a slightly longer lasting version of Abasglar. It is different and needs an open minded acceptance of that principle of it being different with a different attitude to its use. As already thoroughly stated our basal requirements vary a lot across any one 24hr period. So much so that it is simply not possible to have a basal that provides near perfect background cover hour by hour through day and night. So the stability and seeming inflexibility that Tresiba provides allows you to use Tresiba to provide very steady basal (background) cover for a segment of the 24 hour day - eg from 11pm to 7am (or whatever your normal sleeping and fasting period might be). Once that basal dose requirement is sorted then I find I don't need to change that dose very often - typically from spring into summer and back from autumn into winter. Quite modest adjustments, revealed when needed by my CGM graphs either repeatedly steadily rising overnight (too little basal) or falling (too much basal). Provided those graphs are part of my routine fasting and sleeping period then they are in effect my comprehensive basal testing. Thanks to CGM.

SO NOW any other action on my part to managing my D from when I "break my fast" to going to sleep is managed SOLELY by eating, activity/exercise and bolus. Just doing what my missing pancreas might be doing in conjunction with my ever-changing metabolic needs and responses. I'm providing my carb (future glucose) intake by eating or insulin (my bolus injections) all in consideration of whatever activity and exercise I choose to do. My bolus is relatively short lived (for me NovoRapid with a 4 to 5hr profile), so no waiting for the 'insulin on board' effect of a basal be that Levermir (say 12 hrs) or Abasglar (say 20 hrs)

No tinkering with my basal Tresiba. Whatever Tresiba is bringing to my daytime party "is what it is". It won't be wildly fluctuating - it's just constantly there. It will definitely not be an ideal match to the irregular releases of glucose from my liver store, whether those internal glucose releases are triggered by Adrenalin, Cortisol, or a number of other hormones that are partying out of my sight! How my body manages that daytime Tresiba relates back to how active or inactive I am, as well as the weather, any stress, other medications and indeed there is a list of 42 factors that can and do affect our natural insulin sensitivity, thus how 'on board' insulin (basal and bolus) is utilised and thus our BG.

The Chartered Engineer in me reminds me that these factors are way outside of having a neat set of equations (or a sophisticated computer programme) that can manage up to 42 factors - even if each factor was quantifiable and subject to a scientific or engineering analysis. In practice many of the factors are abstract and not quantifiable, so gauging them is an art not a science. [eg Stress - be that emotional, medical or reaction]. But even if all 42 could be expressed mathematically, they are only the known factors! Sometimes (frequently) a 43rd factor is wearing the wrong coloured socks! The complexity of our bodies has so many known 'unknown' interactions that what might be medically expected doesn't actually occur.

I am NOT saying that Tresiba will turn out to be the best solution for you or anyone else.

We are fortunate enough to have a generous array of treatment permutations including diffferent sorts of insulin regimes AND we can choose how we apply those treatments. Our GPs or Consultants and DSNs can advise us on optimum methods or their preferred way of how we use what is provided - but the reality is we can vary the detail. Even minor aspects like how much time we use for pre-bolus intervals at different times of day and slightly more significant parameters such as insulin ratios for carbs or corrections. We have a great deal of freedom to find what suits us as individuals. Changing from Abasglar to Tresiba - or not, or from Abasglar to Levermir - is just one of those treatment options potentially available to those of us who want to explore and find our own way of managing our D. Taking on a pump and perhaps closed loop technology is not quite so freely available to us - even if one can afford to self-fund that. But that's a different topic for tomorrow.

Do keep exploring and interrogating us. Safely, of course. Over the coming months I'm sure you will gain an even wider understanding of your D management and I'd be surprised if initially that wider understanding didn't lead to more questions and possibly increased uncertainty about what is best. It's all not very precise and the more you find out the less precise it seems to become. But it is manageable.
 
Thanks @Proud to be erratic for sharing that, I’m fast learning that the management is not predictable. Even this morning I had a low at 3:30am even though I blouses and ate well for my karate class last night and went bed with a decent and recently reduced my basal ! So it keeps me on my toes sometimes.
Like I mentioned I’m happy to experiment and the more options I try the sooner I’ll find a preferred solution that works for me.
I’m not a morning person so injecting first thing isn’t appealing, bit lazy, but that’s me for the moment although the twice daily makes a lot of sense.
My GP’s clinical pharmacist has already started the prescription so I guess I’ll have it within a day or so.
 
Firstly, was it definitely a real low and not a compression low? I am guessing it probably was in these circumstances, but important to check. Did it take much fixing?

Secondly, if I was taking my basal as a single dose at night and particularly after exercise, I would be guaranteed to hypo. Your Abasaglar, I believe, has a peak of activity about 5 hours after injecting it and it is building up towards that peak after you take it. This means that you are going to be getting it's maximum impact 5 hours after taking it. If you exercised in the evening then your body is recovering overnight and your muscles will be sucking glucose out of your blood to replenish their stores, so with the combination of that and the basal building towards it's peak, it's not surprising you went low, because you have the Abasaglar pushing the glucose out of your blood and the muscles gladly sucking it out. That is my take on it anyway.
 
Thanks @Proud to be erratic for sharing that, I’m fast learning that the management is not predictable. Even this morning I had a low at 3:30am even though I blouses and ate well for my karate class last night and went bed with a decent and recently reduced my basal ! So it keeps me on my toes sometimes.
Like I mentioned I’m happy to experiment and the more options I try the sooner I’ll find a preferred solution that works for me.
I’m not a morning person so injecting first thing isn’t appealing, bit lazy, but that’s me for the moment although the twice daily makes a lot of sense.
My GP’s clinical pharmacist has already started the prescription so I guess I’ll have it within a day or so.
Steve, you can [should] look back at yesterday and see if there was something that you did which you might do better today / tomorrow. If that review reveals a lesson worth learning - great. BUT don't waste hours of your valuable life today in doing that review and if there is no apparent lesson that's also OK and normal! Most of us don't find complete explanations for why something went awry. The main thing is to move on and manage today as well as you REASONABLY can regardless of yesterday; by 'reasonably' I mean accept that it's very early days, that you are right at the start of a lifetime marathon, that you now need to have artistic judgement as well as engineering sense for those many variables that can't be sensibly quantified and there are still more than a few "poo-bear traps" to be encountered and managed. AND life is too short!

Incidentally, I'm seriously impressed with the extent of your understanding and grasp of this D malarkey that you already have shown. It is not easy (and nobody should tell you that is is easy) and managing your D can become very intrusive, consequently debilitating and stressful - if you allow that. There will inevitably be moments when your D interferes with family life or work, just try to keep those moments infrequent and accept they are sometimes an inevitable nuisance.
 
Firstly, was it definitely a real low and not a compression low? I am guessing it probably was in these circumstances, but important to check. Did it take much fixing?

Secondly, if I was taking my basal as a single dose at night and particularly after exercise, I would be guaranteed to hypo. Your Abasaglar, I believe, has a peak of activity about 5 hours after injecting it and it is building up towards that peak after you take it. This means that you are going to be getting it's maximum impact 5 hours after taking it. If you exercised in the evening then your body is recovering overnight and your muscles will be sucking glucose out of your blood to replenish their stores, so with the combination of that and the basal building towards it's peak, it's not surprising you went low, because you have the Abasaglar pushing the glucose out of your blood and the muscles gladly sucking it out. That is my take on it anyway.
Wow I’ve never read about 5hr peak response, you might have hit the nail on the head!
I’ve attached the morning low, not a big deal just annoying being woken, a few dextrose and recovered.
Also I don’t think it was a compression low, I sleep the same and although I think I have witnessed drops but this was too much.
 

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Steve, you can [should] look back at yesterday and see if there was something that you did which you might do better today / tomorrow. If that review reveals a lesson worth learning - great. BUT don't waste hours of your valuable life today in doing that review and if there is no apparent lesson that's also OK and normal! Most of us don't find complete explanations for why something went awry. The main thing is to move on and manage today as well as you REASONABLY can regardless of yesterday; by 'reasonably' I mean accept that it's very early days, that you are right at the start of a lifetime marathon, that you now need to have artistic judgement as well as engineering sense for those many variables that can't be sensibly quantified and there are still more than a few "poo-bear traps" to be encountered and managed. AND life is too short!

Incidentally, I'm seriously impressed with the extent of your understanding and grasp of this D malarkey that you already have shown. It is not easy (and nobody should tell you that is is easy) and managing your D can become very intrusive, consequently debilitating and stressful - if you allow that. There will inevitably be moments when your D interferes with family life or work, just try to keep those moments infrequent and accept they are sometimes an inevitable nuisance.

@Proud to be erratic thank you for complimenting, means a lot.
I’m a father to a teenager so it’s also important to me to be a good role model and also not make life more difficult than necessary. It’s also a kick up the ass to be as healthy as possible without it consuming me.
Im learning as you mention that there is an art to this and there’s no simple algorithm to achieve perfection and I’m ok with that - well mostly ;-)

I think my learning from yesterday is that exercising everyday increases sensitivity a lot and even a day or two it drops again.

Thanks again
 
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