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Anyone use sugar surfing techniques?

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Shivles

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Parent of person with diabetes
I'm a bit confused, from what I'm reading basically you give your bolus and then if the rise is too steep give another tiny dose of insulin to kind of round it off, then be on the look out for a low that might happen because of the extra dose, giving glucose as needed to ward off the hypo.

Is this right? It seems a bit mad lol
 
It's not really to be recommended Shivles, as a permanent solution.

However - it's REALLY useful as a temporary measure when you are pregnant - since you are supposed to try and get your BG graph to appear as near as a straight line as humanly possible, rather than a cross section of the Alps. In other words iron out all the Alps into molehills, like a non diabetic's graph. But it really is temporary since that isn't even the whole 9 months - in the main, the third semester when BGs reach the roof of Wembley stadium unchecked.

It's also kind of what they do if you are undergoing any medical treatment when diabetes management is handled on a sliding scale - they decide what BG level they want you at - say 5.0 - and constantly adjust the insulin drip and glucose drip throughout the procedure to achieve this.

So - just an extra tool to have in the toolbox under the stairs, to bring out and use IF it becomes necessary.
 
Why isn't it recommend permanently? The book doesn't say it's for short term use
 
I wouldn't recommend it for permanent use either. It's not a method that will not be good for you and you would need to be super vigilant. Its a technique that can go very wrong if you get it wrong. I use it usually during season changes when my basal rates get a bit iffy and my blood sugar gets a bit unstable.Or when i'm on medication or i have flu etc. when my levels start to get a bit yo yo its a good way of settling things down over a day or 2. Its also really hard work and requires a lot of testing. much more than normal. it would be far better to spend the time figuring out when you need to take your bolus for a meal to avoid the fast rises. some people take them right before eating , some people do them 15 prior to eating. Some people split the dose of a meal to some before some after etc. It's also dependant on what you are eating, and how fast the insulin gets to work in your case. For example something sweet that will give you a quick sharp rise it would be better to take 5-15mins prior to eating it so the insulin is doing its thing and will not produce the massive fast spike in the first place. But figuring out that time frame is very much an individual thing no 2 people will be the same. x
 
I wouldn't recommend it for permanent use either. It's not a method that will not be good for you and you would need to be super vigilant. Its a technique that can go very wrong if you get it wrong. I use it usually during season changes when my basal rates get a bit iffy and my blood sugar gets a bit unstable.Or when i'm on medication or i have flu etc. when my levels start to get a bit yo yo its a good way of settling things down over a day or 2. Its also really hard work and requires a lot of testing. much more than normal. it would be far better to spend the time figuring out when you need to take your bolus for a meal to avoid the fast rises. some people take them right before eating , some people do them 15 prior to eating. Some people split the dose of a meal to some before some after etc. It's also dependant on what you are eating, and how fast the insulin gets to work in your case. For example something sweet that will give you a quick sharp rise it would be better to take 5-15mins prior to eating it so the insulin is doing its thing and will not produce the massive fast spike in the first place. But figuring out that time frame is very much an individual thing no 2 people will be the same. x
I've bolused so far in advance she's had a mild hypo before the meal and she still shot up to 14mmol. She can spike dramatically (up to 10 points on a bad day) then drop right back down fast and have a hypo a few hours later
 
Because of insulin stacking and the problems that can bring - that's knock on effects.

I am no expert with kiddies and what's normal or not, but why you'd want to give a little one more jabs my choice, I don't really know. Surely better to stagger the carbs a bit or use less of the fast absorption ones?

As a person who absolutely knows first hand that multiwave and extended boluses on a pump are a Godsend to eliminate extra jabs and unwanted highs and lows because they spread the insulin out to match the action of the food in your own body far better, I still think anyone but especially children would be better off with a pump. I understand the feelings about 'imposing your own wishes' on your child but surely if the kiddie doesn't want to continue with the pump once he/she's able to make the choice between it and jabs - he can swap back just as easily as he could do the opposite.

Or, aren't you convinced yourself, or is that why you're asking? LOL Ask away. You'll no doubt get other opinions anyway!
 
Because I'd an extra jab here and there will stop the huge hypers she has then it's worth it

I think pumps come with their own set of problems and to be quite honest I just don't trust them enough to be comfortable with her having one. If I can make MDI work I'd prefer that, obviously as she gets older she will decide for herself
 
I've bolused so far in advance she's had a mild hypo before the meal and she still shot up to 14mmol. She can spike dramatically (up to 10 points on a bad day) then drop right back down fast and have a hypo a few hours later
Hmm maybe to far in advance then (but consider if she had a hypo before the meal she will get the rebound affect on top of the food she has eaten so that would explain the 14 ) like i said its down to how fast the insulin gets to work. With kids it all whizzes about much quicker in their little bodies. I guess the aim is to get the before and after right first. so is it an ok level before a meal and the same 1-2-3 hours post meal if you see what i mean. once those levels are ok then you can look at the spike in the middle. Going hypo post meal would indicate either the bolus was to much for the meal or her basal rate may be a bit high depending on how long after the meal she went hypo. or of course kids will run about and have varying activity levels and may have had an activity induced hypo. Its not really an exact science. there are to many variables for that lol. like trophywench said maybe slower acting carbs may help to reduce the dramatic rise. To be honest any fast acting carb is going to naturally produce a quick spike, that's just how it works. Also as they are a child the have all the growing going on so doses are going to change dramatically as she gets bigger then starts puberty etc
 
The breakfast in particular I find very frustrating, I don't think the 14 was a rebound high as it happens if she doesn't drop quite so low also.

I just want to feed her scrambled egg, she doesn't need any insulin and she stays nice and steady, but I've orders that egg must be served with a carb 🙄

Lunch time her ratio works great and we get a nice little hump that stays in range and then comes back down to nice levels even if it's a sandwich! It literally just seems to me she's too carb sensitive in the morning and so I should skip carbs until lunch but then I get looked at like I'm neglecting her lol
 
The breakfast in particular I find very frustrating, I don't think the 14 was a rebound high as it happens if she doesn't drop quite so low also.

I just want to feed her scrambled egg, she doesn't need any insulin and she stays nice and steady, but I've orders that egg must be served with a carb 🙄

Lunch time her ratio works great and we get a nice little hump that stays in range and then comes back down to nice levels even if it's a sandwich! It literally just seems to me she's too carb sensitive in the morning and so I should skip carbs until lunch but then I get looked at like I'm neglecting her lol
Yeah she probably has a varying ratio throughout the day from what you are saying. Lol i know the struggle! scrambled eggs must be accompanied by toast! lol :D i would have an experiment with bread. Try out 50/50 for a week then white bread then brown bread etc. white bread is a much faster acting carb than 50/50 or brown or wholemeal. Even though the slices have the same amount of carbs its all do do with how fast it is absorbed. She may not like the idea of brown bread or non sugary cereal etc but little changes here and there will become the norm for her. I don't know how old she is but kids accept changes must faster than us grown ups lol. Presenting her with a new type of breakfast may be a challenge but keeping it simple with 'this won't make you feel yucky' (hopefully! lol) I also wonder if maybe she gets dawn phenomenon on top of a varying ratio, I would def speak to the DSN about the morning issues x
 
Yeah she probably has a varying ratio throughout the day from what you are saying. Lol i know the struggle! scrambled eggs must be accompanied by toast! lol :D i would have an experiment with bread. Try out 50/50 for a week then white bread then brown bread etc. white bread is a much faster acting carb than 50/50 or brown or wholemeal. Even though the slices have the same amount of carbs its all do do with how fast it is absorbed. She may not like the idea of brown bread or non sugary cereal etc but little changes here and there will become the norm for her. I don't know how old she is but kids accept changes must faster than us grown ups lol. Presenting her with a new type of breakfast may be a challenge but keeping it simple with 'this won't make you feel yucky' (hopefully! lol) I also wonder if maybe she gets dawn phenomenon on top of a varying ratio, I would def speak to the DSN about the morning issues x
I've tried white and brown it's all the same lol I've not tried rye or anything like that but I'm skeptical that she will eat them. Shes 18 months so we can't really reason with her haha. Porridge and cereal give similar rises, there's not much difference.
 
I have never heard of sugar surfing, but I know of sliding scales!
 
I'm hoping that you put plenty of butter onto the toast and/or use butter and/or cream in the eggs? since the addition of fat automatically slows any carb down, so the spike will lose speed too. (Hence the carbs from a potato made into chips absorb less quickly than the same spud just boiled.)

However - whilst I appreciate that a modest amount of starchy carbs are part of a balanced diet - I can't say I've ever heard that you have to accompany all protein with the pesky things.
 
I'm hoping that you put plenty of butter onto the toast and/or use butter and/or cream in the eggs? since the addition of fat automatically slows any carb down, so the spike will lose speed too. (Hence the carbs from a potato made into chips absorb less quickly than the same spud just boiled.)

However - whilst I appreciate that a modest amount of starchy carbs are part of a balanced diet - I can't say I've ever heard that you have to accompany all protein with the pesky things.

She just has toast but I do use lots of butter.

As I follow a LCHF diet myself the team are a bit like the carb police with me... its a bit frustrating lol
 
Shivles I'm really not sure if you will like my post but I am writing it after many weeks of consideration. I have been diabetic since I was two years old. At that time it was only one injection a day and no finger prick tests. Yet it must have destroyed my mum's heart when she found me trying to drown all of the injection stuff in the sink because I hated injections so much. I know that you don't like the thought of pumps, I know that you don't want to feel that you are imposing a pump on your daughter but OMG I so wish that this option had been available to me when I was two. It truly was the best thing that happened to me when I got my pump 42 years later. Personalky if I'd had that many injections and finger prick tests at 2 I dread to think how much I would have rebelled. I'm sorry I don't like writing this post but in my heart I feel that I had to write it.
 
Hi Shivles. I have been reading your posts for some time, both here and elsewhere and have enormous sympathy for you. There is so much information, but diabetes is a difficult condition to manage. My son is older than your child but there are similarities as he has special needs, and therefore appears much younger, is very small for his age and completely dependent on me to make all decisions about his treatment and diet. My wishes therefore are that he should have as normal a life as possible, whilst maintaining the best levels achievable in difficult circumstances. I know that it might be controversial to say, but I do not believe that it is possible to maintain excellent levels and continue to eat in the same way that you did before diagnosis. You can bolus early, bolus again later and try everything but it will never quite work out as far as I can tell. They don't have functioning pancreases and MDI does not mimic that at all. I won't touch on pumps as we don't have one at the moment but I will comment on food. The way that we have mostly achieved good results is to subsitute foods for carbohydrates that my son had previously. Breakfast seems to be a nightmare for most diabetics. My son used to love his toast and porridge but it just does not work for him. I don't like him going into double figures so we don't have carbs for breakfast. However, if you do want bread, there are low carb options that can be substituted and will limit the rise that you get. There is high protein bread from Lidl (and I believe some other manufacturer has just introduced a similar range), there is Bergen and Liv Lo (Sainsbury) and another that you can get in Waitrose. They all taste pretty good but make life easier. I have also substitued other carbs for lower options. There are "no carb" pastas available in most of the supermarkets and a brilliant icecream that has virtually no carbs. I don't tell my diabetic team how we achieve our good HbA1C as I don't think that the NHS have moved with the times. My advice would therefore be to reduce carbs until you get the sort of levels that you would like post meal and then start to carefully introduce some to see how each and every one works. I don't know whether carbs are essential in our diet, I don't have that sort of expertise and of course your child is still growing. I just know what has worked well for us.
 
Ps to my previous post. We make chips out of celeriac, mash out of celeriac and cauliflower and pizza base with cauliflower and mozzarella. We use grated 90% cocoa solid choc on his puddings. We just try to make it look like he is eating all of the normal things, whilst avoiding the obvious culprits like pasta, potatoes and bread. There are loads of other ideas out there which you will find.
 
Hi Shivles. I have been reading your posts for some time, both here and elsewhere and have enormous sympathy for you. There is so much information, but diabetes is a difficult condition to manage. My son is older than your child but there are similarities as he has special needs, and therefore appears much younger, is very small for his age and completely dependent on me to make all decisions about his treatment and diet. My wishes therefore are that he should have as normal a life as possible, whilst maintaining the best levels achievable in difficult circumstances. I know that it might be controversial to say, but I do not believe that it is possible to maintain excellent levels and continue to eat in the same way that you did before diagnosis. You can bolus early, bolus again later and try everything but it will never quite work out as far as I can tell. They don't have functioning pancreases and MDI does not mimic that at all. I won't touch on pumps as we don't have one at the moment but I will comment on food. The way that we have mostly achieved good results is to subsitute foods for carbohydrates that my son had previously. Breakfast seems to be a nightmare for most diabetics. My son used to love his toast and porridge but it just does not work for him. I don't like him going into double figures so we don't have carbs for breakfast. However, if you do want bread, there are low carb options that can be substituted and will limit the rise that you get. There is high protein bread from Lidl (and I believe some other manufacturer has just introduced a similar range), there is Bergen and Liv Lo (Sainsbury) and another that you can get in Waitrose. They all taste pretty good but make life easier. I have also substitued other carbs for lower options. There are "no carb" pastas available in most of the supermarkets and a brilliant icecream that has virtually no carbs. I don't tell my diabetic team how we achieve our good HbA1C as I don't think that the NHS have moved with the times. My advice would therefore be to reduce carbs until you get the sort of levels that you would like post meal and then start to carefully introduce some to see how each and every one works. I don't know whether carbs are essential in our diet, I don't have that sort of expertise and of course your child is still growing. I just know what has worked well for us.
I am not a favourite of the lchf way but fully agree with everything here. The issue I have is not the low carb or even the high fat. It is the type of fat and increasing salt that I do not like. But having a carb free breakfast makes perfect sense, and substitution for better carbs, hell yeah. That is good nutrition
 
I am not a favourite of the lchf way but fully agree with everything here. The issue I have is not the low carb or even the high fat. It is the type of fat and increasing salt that I do not like. But having a carb free breakfast makes perfect sense, and substitution for better carbs, hell yeah. That is good nutrition

The team act like I mad when I suggest scrambled egg for breakfast! She can have a sandwich at lunch no bother her BS doesn't rocket then but in the morning she just doesn't seem able to cope. Maybe as she gets bigger this will change but for now it feels like giving her toast like they want is sending us backwards
 
Watch the itv programme, just saw a preview on the news talking about slow release carbohydrate. So might be worth a look. The GL diet is supported by UK dieticians and my Endo and DSN. So might be worth thinking about, not radical, not over restrictive and gives some good tricks to even out spikes.
 
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