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Prof Roy Taylor on Type 2 reversal

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Not sure its quite that simple though is it?
Can be a bit dificult to figure things out. We can all sorts of things affecting what's going on with the D. Including BG levels affecting insulin levels. Which affects the BG lever.
A case of where does it start.
 
I bit the bullet and bought Roy Taylor's book. I usually hate popular health books, but this one is starting out a lot better than I expected. The writing is really very clear and engaging - unlike his papers, which IMO tend to clunk a bit. The tone is just right - not like some low-rent prophet delivering fake revelations to morons, like most of these things. Not too cluttered with dubious rah-rah personal anecdotes about people who may or may not exist. Etc etc etc.

The early chapters have a really clear exposition of glucose metabolism, and though he never uses the word "gluconeogenesis" it's the only popular account I've seen of why waking BG levels are often high for a T2D: not because your "liver stores glucose and spurts it out to get you set for the day", but because your liver's constant production of glucose from amino acids and trigs (not carbs) overnight to keep your brain alive is stuck in overdrive, due to failure of insulin signalling because of insulin resistance in your liver, in turn typically due to too much fat clogging it up.

This is just well-understoof and long-accepted medicine, from what I've read, but it never seems to be understood by any of the clickbait-y health sites people go to for information. Which is strange, because it can be one of the most puzzling things for T2D newbies.

He provides a nice quantification estimate: for a non-diabetic 75kg male, about 10g per hour of glucose production via this gluconeogenesis mechanism while asleep. So as much as 80g in total overnight. (Worth thinking about in the context of very low carb diets: this 80g has nothing to do with carb intake ...)

Anyway, after reading a few chapters I'm pretty impressed.

EDIT: Not surprising that for him, weight loss and calorie restriction are the most important things for health. Most everything else food-wise is either not very important or misguided.

Eg: "The balance of carbohydrate and fat that you eat is far less important than the total quantity ..."

There is no magic to any food, and no food is ‘healthy’ in itself. The devil, as we have seen, is not primarily in the type of food but in the quantity.

Etc etc.

I'm sympathetic to the view, but I guess you need to filter for it, particularly when he talks about stuff beyond T2D.

He repeats pretty standard tropes about how worthless epidemiology is for nutrition research, which IMO are too strongly stated. He has the standard criticsms of the Seven Countries Study, which I think are actually incorrect or at least have been refuted many times. He doesn't appear to be aware of the excellent rigorous RCT by Kevin Hall's group demonstrating that isocalorific low carb doesn't result in less body fat versus high carb (less fat resulting from the carbs, but balanced by increased dietary fat).

And so on. But none of this impinges on the main messages, I think.

PS: I thought I saw somewhere that the book had a forward by media doctor Michael Mosley, but at least in my copy, it's actually by a real expert, KGMM Alberti. Better!
 
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PS: I thought I saw somewhere that the book had a forward by media doctor Michael Mosley, but at least in my copy, it's actually by a real expert, KGMM Alberti. Better!

My copy has Mosley in it. I guess you've got the 2nd edition or something 🙂 or maybe the first. I'm planning on reading it while waiting at the hospital for my next appointment. Given those places are boring as hell.
 
My copy has Mosley in it. I guess you've got the 2nd edition or something 🙂 or maybe the first. I'm planning on reading it while waiting at the hospital for my next appointment. Given those places are boring as hell.
Weird! Maybe because I bought the e-book in Oz or something.
 
I reckon it's well worth reading the paper presenting the 2 year DiRECT follow-up results in conjunction with this. Article proof here: https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/newcastlemagneticresonancecentre/files/DiRECT - 2 year results.pdf

Remission outcomes by weight loss:

upload_2020-1-9_16-4-44.png

At 24 months, 70% of people who lost > 15kg were in remission, down to just 5% who lost less than 5kg - which is just "noise", really. For a real chance, you have to lose 5kg+. Because the study group had a mean baseline weight of ~100kg, that means losing 5%+ of body weight. And that fits perfectly for the general medical view on weight loss: 5%+ is "clinically meaningful".

One of the things I like about this work is that the more you dig into it, the more it fits with a large amount of well-established research. This is one of the major features which distinguishes real research from quackery.

Obviously, the big issue with the approach clinically is the difficulty of maintaining weight loss.

upload_2020-1-9_16-11-35.png

At one year, 24% had 15kg+ loss, declining to 11% at two years. For 10kg weight loss, it was 24% at two years. The previous figure shows that to have a chance much better than 50% of getting to remission, you generally need to aim for 10kg (or approx 10%) weight loss. Of course, you could get lucky with less, or unlucky with more: one thing that these results show is that losing weight isn't a universal cure, at least for the weight loss ranges explored.

One thing highlighted in the results paper and less so in the book, is that about half the participants required at least one "relapse management" intervention when their weight started to go back up inthe first 12 months. This isn't set & forget!

Personally, I went into what I would call "remission" - avg daily BG <= 5.8 mmol/L, fasting BG <= 5.2 mmol/L - after losing about 10kg, or about 12% of body weight, which fits with this picture.

upload_2020-1-9_16-19-44.png

That happened around the beginning of Oct 2018, and the step-down should be pretty obvious from the chart. So about 15 months ago. If I can keep it up for aother 9 months, I guess I will correspond to one of those 60% in remission at 24 months in the DiRECT follow-up.

So what are my chances of being able to maintain the remission? long-term To the extent that it depends on maintaining >= 10kg / ~10% weight loss, it's a bit interesting to look at the well-known "Look AHEAD" trial: 8 year study, finishing in 2012, investigating managed weight-loss program outcomes for a large cohort of T2D's. I think DiRECT was modelled on this to some extent & although the details of the interventions were different, it's probably of some use in trying to extrapolate out from the 2 year DiRECT results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3904491/pdf/nihms536505.pdf

Over the first 12 months, the Look AHEAD "ILI" intervention achieved an avg weight loss of 8.5%, falling to about 6.5% at year 2 (versus ~10.5% / ~7.5% for DiRECT):

upload_2020-1-9_16-30-53.png

("DSE" = standard care)

By year 8, avg wright loss had reduced to < 5%. This is the same general profile as for any weight loss program, short-term reductions, stacking it back over time, hopefully achieving some modest long term net reduction - even with support, advice, rah-rah email messages, follow-ups etc etc. Even though the DiRECT 2 yr results were a bit better, I haven't seen anything to give confidence that the longer term results won't converge to something like this.

If 5% is the minimum clinically meaningful target, at a population level it's really hard to achieve!

However, I'm not a population so I'm more interested in the subgroup which did achieve 10%+ reduction over 8 years. Interestingly, this looks a lot like DiRECT's 2 year results for the 10kg / ~10% reduction group:

upload_2020-1-9_16-40-40.png

In Look AHEAD, about 27% achieved 10kg+ loss at 8 years and about 11% achieved 15kg+. At 2 years, the corresponding results for DiRECT were 24% / 11%. Pretty much the same.

Other data from Look AHEAD suggest this isn't much of a coincidence: how much you lose in the first year was a big predicter for how much you have lost by year 8. One aspect of this:


upload_2020-1-9_16-45-45.png


39% of people who lost 10%+ in the first year were still at 10%+ loss by year 8, and the higher the first year loss, generally the less you would stack back on and the lower you would be at year 8. Whatever motivation people have for the initial loss is often enough to carry them through for the longer term.

Fingers crossed!

The study identified characteristics of successful maintainers which are completely unsurprising: they check weight often, they check calories often and adjust as needed, they are physically active.

So this further motivates me to continue to be moderately obsessive about managing things 🙂

But for the world as a whole, and for me if I lose motivation, what all this work really demonstrates IMO is that we badly need a cheap, safe, effecive appetite suppressant pill. Sorry, but evolution hasn't equipped us for a world of abundant food and pharma needs to take up the slack. Look: even with the best intervention programs and generally motivated particpants, the avg long-term weight loss is sub 5%, at best marginally clinically significant. How much more proof do we need?

The excellent Kevin Hall has great research illustrating the fundamental problem: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/#!po=2.20588

Appetite changes likely play a more important role than slowing metabolism in explaining the weight loss plateau since the feedback circuit controlling long-term calorie intake has greater overall strength than the feedback circuit controlling calorie expenditure. Specifically, it has been estimated that for each kilogram of lost weight, calorie expenditure decreases by about 20–30 kcal/d whereas appetite increases by about 100 kcal/d above the baseline level prior to weight loss31. Despite these predictable physiologic phenomena, the typical response of the patient is to blame themselves as lazy or lacking in willpower, sentiments that are often reinforced by healthcare providers,

You lose 10kg, on average your appetitie increases by 1,000 cal per day. At the same time, your baseline energy expenditure decreases by about 200 cal per day. Of course there's individual variability in that but of course at a population level maintaining 10kg weight loss is going to be really really difficult - you're going to be feeling constantly like you've eaten 1,200 cal per day too little. I'm probably fortunate in not feeling the full force of that, but I often do feel a big part of it, and not letting fat creep back is going to demand constant vigilance.

Sucks! Bring on the appetitie suppressant implant!
 
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Thanks for that Eddy and I definitely agree with you on all points really. I've lost 6 stone before on a low calorie diet, but put it back on when my mate moved away and I got bored too often at work. The real key isn't really the weight loss (that's a relatively simple mechanism of counting calorific intake), but maintenance. Honestly now I'm aware of the issue with carbs and a low carb diet, I think I'll be able to maintain a lot easier than I did before. The idea of eating more veg once I get back to "normal" eating isn't a bad one. I kind of wish I liked salmon more though.

I've got a substantial amount of weight to lose though, so 15kg is absolutely nothing in those terms. If Roy Taylors ideas are right and its more about a personal threshold, then I reckon I can at least get there and maintain. I'm a bit of a control freak so I enjoy measuring and optimizing (I teach it in my job too).

I'm with you though, an appetite suppressant, or a food substitute that provides satiety without any intake of calories would be pretty wise. Or we could just make a set of laws that preclude all the c**p that is put into modern food? hahaha.. like that'd ever happen.

Actually, while I've got my tin foil hat on, the reality is that many people make money off this whole situation, so much so that I can't see any chance of an actual fix being allowed to thrive. Too many vested interests would lose out, so anything that worked would be immediately debunked and smeared and probably shut down. Hmmm.
 
I'm with you though, an appetite suppressant, or a food substitute that provides satiety without any intake of calories would be pretty wise. Or we could just make a set of laws that preclude all the c**p that is put into modern food? hahaha.. like that'd ever happen.

Actually, while I've got my tin foil hat on, the reality is that many people make money off this whole situation, so much so that I can't see any chance of an actual fix being allowed to thrive. Too many vested interests would lose out, so anything that worked would be immediately debunked and smeared and probably shut down. Hmmm.

Being a Kevin Hall fanboi I'm obliged to note that he published a great RCT recently looking at ultraprocessed vs "whole" foods. See https://forum.diabetes.org.uk/boards/threads/ultra-processed-diets-mean-you-eat-more.82071/

Ultra-processed = you eat more calories (~300 cal per day), but surprisingly there was no signal in the data suggesting it was because they are more palatable, taste better, etc. The only signal they could detect was that people ate faster when they ate ultra-processed, but nothing to say why.

Personally & for me, it can't be just food quality which leads to weight gain. I mainly eat raw in one form or another, mainly plants, and on a typical day the most processed thing I'll have is the Bonsoy milk in my coffee. But some days I could easily chow down ona kg of almonds if I let myself go ...

My guess is that the biggest "problem" is just food/calorie abundance, more than the type of food. But just a guess.
 
My guess is that the biggest "problem" is just food/calorie abundance, more than the type of food. But just a guess.

Hmm, you might have a point. I do think that for the most part the processing happening to foods is generally done to either 1) make them last on the shelves longer or 2) to make them more appealing by adding or removing some aspect. I'm surprised the study you mention didn't find the added sugars in stuff like cereals though. Certainly I've noticed that at least anecdotally the foods in your average supermarket are mostly processed with high carb content. I know a lot of meats for instance are processed to disguise the fact that they are parts of the animal that would otherwise be socially objectionable (I'm looking at you turkey twizzlers!).

But yes, abundance is likely the cause of the T2 epidemic for sure. Not really a surprise given the industrial scale of the agri businesses.
 
Wow @Eddy Edson what an interesting read... I think you commented on my first post in September when my sons nurse said he couldn’t reverse his diabetes and not linked to weight... a real kick in the teeth but you offered a glimmer of hope... so low carb we did/do and 4 stone off in 4 months and in remission though still on metformin.. GP thinks weight loss and healthy diet main factor and happy to try reducing or stopping metformin if Hba1c still as low (36)... am really hoping that this weight loss from adipose fat will help , fingers crossed and keep posting the research it’s vety helpful...ps when told the nurse what James has achieved she quickly dampened our joy by saying it was progressive ... so nice to be supported by such a health professional when we are trying to find holistic natural ‘cure’ this saving NHS £... found her approach very depressing... anyway we are ok at the moment and will carry on as we are low carb/exercise/hydrated/minimal alcohol and metformin for the time being
 
Wow @Eddy Edson what an interesting read... I think you commented on my first post in September when my sons nurse said he couldn’t reverse his diabetes and not linked to weight... a real kick in the teeth but you offered a glimmer of hope... so low carb we did/do and 4 stone off in 4 months and in remission though still on metformin.. GP thinks weight loss and healthy diet main factor and happy to try reducing or stopping metformin if Hba1c still as low (36)... am really hoping that this weight loss from adipose fat will help , fingers crossed and keep posting the research it’s vety helpful...ps when told the nurse what James has achieved she quickly dampened our joy by saying it was progressive ... so nice to be supported by such a health professional when we are trying to find holistic natural ‘cure’ this saving NHS £... found her approach very depressing... anyway we are ok at the moment and will carry on as we are low carb/exercise/hydrated/minimal alcohol and metformin for the time being

Sounds good! And well done to both of you.

I think T2D was viiewed as unavoidably progressive until quite recently, so I guess probably she thought she was giving good if unwelcome advice.
 
Yep, I have had 10 years of 'progressive' type 2 diabetes now. Still off the medication and am in the process of making sure that I still stay off the medication for as long as possible. 🙂
 
.. found her approach very depressing...

I bet you did, how ignorant a viewpoint. I guess when you're working in the healthcare field, you just don't have time to stop and look at the latest work in the area. I guess on average diabetes does tend to be progressive (i.e. plenty of people don't lose the weight, or change their lifestyle), but to suggest somehow that someone who HAS done that will get worse seems poorly advised.

Anyway, good on you and your son! Keep at it.
 
Thanks @zoombapup and @Andy HB , yes I am under no illusion that this will just go away and can now see that his lifestyle, and diet was major contributor but he is autistic and also has some physical problems with poor muscle tone. He had got fat and we had tried on and off for years to try and shift this but nothing seemed to work and he used to comfort eat. I was so upset when he was diagnosed and determined to try and put into remission if possible but this professional told us quite bluntly that we would not be able to as it was not linked to his weight! At that point his BMI was 31 which is obese! She just said take the tablets and didn’t really advise on diet. She said I could try and prove her wrong, and when we did she retorted well you need to remember it’s progressive. I was quite fed up with her but the GP is lovely and is amazed and thrilled at our progress and is very interested about low carb and weight loss as she has another patient who has achieved similar. We are waiting for another Hba1c test to see if metformin can be reduced,GP seems to think possible. We shall avoid that nurse and carry on being motivated and learning from all the lovely and well read people on here x
 
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