BG Levels Question

[Vince_UK]

I have learned since Sept 28th a lot about BG levels and how to control them if you are diabetic.
From my deductions the ideal levels are between 4-7.
What I am stuggling to find out is what the normal levels would be for a non-diabetic person?
Thinking back 1 year before I was diagnosed my level was 4.7 and i was told I was "pre-diabetc" but that is all that was said. No Advice given so Vince merrily continues his own sweet normal way.
By interpreting the span of levels between 4-7 and 4.7 classed as Pre does that mean anything lower o 4.7 is considered non-Diabetic?
Now looking back at my last tests at the doctors, my results where 7.6 retested to 7.8 high
BUT, there wasn't any allowance given for the time after the last meal and I had in both cases just eaten a huge breakfast and both appointments were early morning. Surely that could have skewed any results.
After reading about testing and the 2 hour rule seems weird that wasn't take in to consideration when the tests were taken. It seems to be a variable in my simple mind. The results could have gone either way Diabetic or Non-diabetic with the latter being quite a dangerous situatiion. It was a moment in time that determined the result that declared that I was diabetic.
OK why am I asking this?
Since getting my meter I have tested my blood 3 or 4 times per day since October 9th
I have tested before certain meals, oatmeal for breakfast for example, to determine the effects. If the results were within the 4-7 band I see no point in retesting especially at the equivalent of £1.50 per strip here.
I have tested pre and post when I have eaten something I wasn't sure about and recorded the results on a spreadsheet
You could argue the number of results would give a honest empirical analysis but they are better than nothing.
Ok, sorry to ramble.
If I look at my readings over that period the lowest has been 4.2 with the highest at 7.1 after I had eaten a steamed rice flower dumpling with sugar about 1/2 the size of a cricket ball with blueberries. Would that rise also have happened in a non-diabetic?
Discounting that anomaly, my daily average is between 4.6 and 5.4. Well within the 4-7 range.
but is that down to my diet change alone or controlling BG levels because I am T2?
How would that compare to a non-diabetic person? Do non-diabetic levels rise and fall like ours or are they constant?
OR
I am missing something here, am I being to simplistic?
I have no doubts whatsoever that I am fitter, healthier and slimmer than I was and feel brighter

 

[Bubbsie]

I have learned since Sept 28th a lot about BG levels and how to control them if you are diabetic.
From my deductions the ideal levels are between 4-7.
What I am stuggling to find out is what the normal levels would be for a non-diabetic person?
Thinking back 1 year before I was diagnosed my level was 4.7 and i was told I was "pre-diabetc" but that is all that was said. No Advice given so Vince merrily continues his own sweet normal way.
By interpreting the span of levels between 4-7 and 4.7 classed as Pre does that mean anything lower o 4.7 is considered non-Diabetic?
Now looking back at my last tests at the doctors, my results where 7.6 retested to 7.8 high
BUT, there wasn't any allowance given for the time after the last meal and I had in both cases just eaten a huge breakfast and both appointments were early morning. Surely that could have skewed any results.
After reading about testing and the 2 hour rule seems weird that wasn't take in to consideration when the tests were taken. It seems to be a variable in my simple mind. The results could have gone either way Diabetic or Non-diabetic with the latter being quite a dangerous situatiion. It was a moment in time that determined the result that declared that I was diabetic.
OK why am I asking this?
Since getting my meter I have tested my blood 3 or 4 times per day since October 9th
I have tested before certain meals, oatmeal for breakfast for example, to determine the effects. If the results were within the 4-7 band I see no point in retesting especially at the equivalent of £1.50 per strip here.
I have tested pre and post when I have eaten something I wasn't sure about and recorded the results on a spreadsheet
You could argue the number of results would give a honest empirical analysis but they are better than nothing.
Ok, sorry to ramble.
If I look at my readings over that period the lowest has been 4.2 with the highest at 7.1 after I had eaten a steamed rice flower dumpling with sugar about 1/2 the size of a cricket ball with blueberries. Would that rise also have happened in a non-diabetic?
Discounting that anomaly, my daily average is between 4.6 and 5.4. Well within the 4-7 range.
but is that down to my diet change alone or controlling BG levels because I am T2?
How would that compare to a non-diabetic person? Do non-diabetic levels rise and fall like ours or are they constant?
OR
I am missing something here, am I being to simplistic?
I have no doubts whatsoever that I am fitter, healthier and slimmer than I was and feel brighter

Vince I've sent you the table containing the ranges for blood sugar levels...hope those solves your confusion😉.

Normal and diabetic blood sugar ranges
For the majority of healthy individuals, normal blood sugar levels are as follows:

• Between 4.0 to 6.0 mmol/L (72 to 108 mg/dL) when fasting
• Up to 7.8 mmol/L (140 mg/dL) 2 hours after eating

For people with diabetes, blood sugar level targets are as follows:

• Before meals: 4 to 7 mmol/L for people with type 1 or type 2 diabetes
• After meals: under 9 mmol/L for people with type 1 diabetes and under 8.5mmol/L for people with type 2 diabetes

Blood sugar levels in diagnosing diabetes
The following table lays out criteria for diagnoses of diabetes and prediabetes.

Blood sugar levels in diagnosing diabetes
Blood sugar levels in diagnosing diabetes
Plasma glucose test Normal Prediabetes Diabetes
Random Below 11.1 mmol/l
Below 200 mg/dl N/A 11.1 mmol/l or more
200 mg/dl or more
Fasting Below 6.1 mmol/l
Below 108 mg/dl 6.1 to 6.9 mmol/l
108 to 125 mg/dl 7.0 mmol/l or more
126 mg/dl or more
2 hour post-prandial Below 7.8 mmol/l
Below 140 mg/dl 7.8 to 11.0 mmol/l
140 to 199 mg/dl 11.1 mmol/l or more
200 mg/dl or more
Random plasma glucose test

 

[Bubbsie]

By interpreting the span of levels between 4-7 and 4.7 classed as Pre does that mean anything lower o 4.7 is considered non-Diabetic?
Now looking back at my last tests at the doctors, my results where 7.6 retested to 7.8 high
BUT, there wasn't any allowance given for the time after the last meal and I had in both cases just eaten a huge breakfast and both appointments were early morning. Surely that could have skewed any results.
After reading about testing and the 2 hour rule seems weird that wasn't take in to consideration when the tests were taken. It seems to be a variable in my simple mind. The results could have gone either way Diabetic or Non-diabetic with the latter being quite a dangerous situatiion. It was a moment in time that determined the result that declared that I was diabetic.
OK why am I asking this?

Vince the HbA1c test to determine whether you have diabetes is distinct from the self monitoring of blood glucose we check with out meters...the HbA1c gives the average BG levels for the preceding three months...as opposed to the self testing which gives us the blood glucose at that point in time...it isn't really feasible to compare them...on your meter you will have a facility to check your BG levels over the last 7 days...the last 14...30 & 90 days... that can give you an approximation of how you are managing...of course I am assuming all glucose meters have that facility

 

[Vince_UK]

Thanks Bubbs
So, reading that if I am correct. both my 7.6 and 7.8 readings in September were within, albeit just, the normal levels for a non-diabetic. Considering I had eaten a huge breakfast around 2 hours or less in both cases and no one asked me what time I had eaten.
Even now my levels are within the non-diabetic range. The highest recorded being 7.1 after my rice flour dumpling.
I am not in denial by any means but I fail to see how a diagnosis as life changing as this can be made of one or 2 tests which were not in a controled envrironment.
Since testing I have never been higher than 7.1 post.
Come to the conslusion When I get back I would like it tested again and the other associated blood tests conducted
My Cholestrol for example, even though I take Atorvaststin was 3.4.
Just want clarity thats all
Thanks Bubbs

 

[Vince_UK]

Yes Bubbs I have and I also record on my own spreadsheet so I also note what I ate.
I was not given any results for this test HbA1c so when I get back I need to ask that question.
All I was told was that my blood sugar level was 7.8 and "you are diabetic" as simple as that .
See the Nurse.
Kind of matter of fact to be honest .

 

[Bubbsie]

Thanks Bubbs
So, reading that if I am correct. both my 7.6 and 7.8 readings in September were within, albeit just, the normal levels for a non-diabetic. Considering I had eaten a huge breakfast around 2 hours or less in both cases and no one asked me what time I had eaten.
Even now my levels are within the non-diabetic range. The highest recorded being 7.1 after my rice flour dumpling.
I am not in denial by any means but I fail to see how a diagnosis as life changing as this can be made of one or 2 tests which were not in a controled envrironment.
Since testing I have never been higher than 7.1 post.
Come to the conslusion When I get back I would like it tested again and the other associated blood tests conducted
My Cholestrol for example, even though I take Atorvaststin was 3.4.
Just want clarity thats all
Thanks Bubbs

Vince...I think you are possibly getting confused here (meant kindly...honest)...you need to look at the range for the desired type 2 levels mols is the range for T2s...the range for non-diabetic is 4-5.9mmols...have another look at the charts I sent...I doubt the fact you had breakfast would have made any difference to your results...since the HbA1c test covers the preceding three months...not that day...your test results in September would indicate you were in pre-diabetic range for T2 which is anything above 42...anything below that would be non-diabetic...7.6 & 7.8 'spill' you over into diabetic range...not massively so...however if it hadn't been addressed at that time...the diabetes may have progressed...exacerbated before you had a chance to address it...I'm not sure what you mean when you say the tests where not in a controlled environment...I've assumed they were carried out by your doctor/nurse?...can you expand on that...as for the effect of the food on your levels...that is very much individual for each of us...some tolerate carbs far better than others...some 'get away' with the odd indulgence...diabetes is a tricky madam...if you do have concerns about your diabetes...a possible misdiagnosis you must discuss this with your health care team...we can only advise/suggest on our own experiences...we're not qualified to give a definitive answer...you are achieving great results...the trick is to sustain them...keep us updated...not sure if I have given you any assistance with this...or just confused the hell out of you😱😱😱.

 

[Bubbsie]

Yes Bubbs I have and I also record on my own spreadsheet so I also note what I ate.
I was not given any results for this test HbA1c so when I get back I need to ask that question.
All I was told was that my blood sugar level was 7.8 and "you are diabetic" as simple as that .
See the Nurse.
Kind of matter of fact to be honest .

Vince...you have to take account of your BGs between testing...there are periods where we not able to test such as when we are sleeping...working...busy...I think the only real way to see our continuous BG levels is with a Libre...or with GFM...otherwise we have to rely on the HbA1c test to provide our average numbers over a period of time ...as for your diagnosis...you were fortunate to be told face to face...not being flippant or unsympathetic when I say that...I got mine in a phone call (as have others here)...you are diabetic...come & collect a prescription...an appointment four days later...no support offered...no further advice...all of my knowledge on type 2 has been gleaned from this forum...the members here...Gretchen Becker's book on T2...most of us here are self taught...most of us here have less than acceptable treatment...advice...support from our health care teams...that's why we have to keep pushing for the right level of support...with hindsight it's easy to say 'I should have asked this...asked that'...at the time of diagnosis... without any idea of what diabetes is...how it will affect us...impact on our lives...that omission is forgivable...you now are certainly more knowledgeable...understand your diabetes...have a good idea of how to manage/control it...are in a favourable position to ask all the pertinent questions...get the salient facts at your next appointment/review...be interested to hear how your GP/DSN respond to those.

 

[Amigo]

Yes Bubbs I have and I also record on my own spreadsheet so I also note what I ate.
I was not given any results for this test HbA1c so when I get back I need to ask that question.
All I was told was that my blood sugar level was 7.8 and "you are diabetic" as simple as that .
See the Nurse.
Kind of matter of fact to be honest .

I may be wrong here Vince but I’m wondering if you’re confusing daily testing levels on the meter (where you prick your finger) with the Hba1c level. Here’s the conversion chart. A Hba1c of 7.8 is well over the qualifying diabetic level of 6.5 (48). A Hb of 7.8 would be a 62 as you’ll see on the chart.

http://baspath.co.uk/Hba1c_table.pdf

The finger prick levels you are getting now are pretty good and I’m certain will push your future Hba1c levels out of diabetic range.

I’ve only ever had one errant Hba1c of 52 at diagnosis in Feb ‘15. Since then they’ve been in pre-diabetic and non diabetic range. Last one was 42. However I’m still diabetic and my daily testing reminds me of that. Your present daily bg’s are better than mine. To me, it’s the meter that matters and it tells me what I need to know.

You’re doing great but it would take a fair number of Hba1c results well under 40 with no meds for any doctor to be convinced you could come off the Diabetic Register. However, we have people on here who have done it and I reckon you could too!

 

[Robin]

Can I ask a question? (I'm getting confused now),
When you had the two tests at the surgery, that came out as 7.6 and 7.8, were these a simple fingerprick test with a meter like you've got now? People seem to be assuming these were an HbA1c.( the three month average of your blood glucose)

But most of the time now, results of an HbA1c are given in the new measurement which is usually a figure in the mid thirties to forties for a non-diabetic person. (they changed a couple of years ago from the % type measurement.) I'd be surprised if your surgery had given you an HbA1c result in the old style (7.6% or 7.8%).
So I'm wondering if these were indeed a 'snapshot' blood glucose measurement like you get from a meter ( in which case, the fact that you had eaten breakfast would indeed have a bearing on the result)

 

[Amigo]

Can I ask a question? (I'm getting confused now),
When you had the two tests at the surgery, that came out as 7.6 and 7.8, were these a simple fingerprick test with a meter like you've got now? People seem to be assuming these were an HbA1c.( the three month average of your blood glucose)

But most of the time now, results of an HbA1c are given in the new measurement which is usually a figure in the mid thirties to forties for a non-diabetic person. (they changed a couple of years ago from the % type measurement.) I'd be surprised if your surgery had given you an HbA1c result in the old style (7.6% or 7.8%).
So I'm wondering if these were indeed a 'snapshot' blood glucose measurement like you get from a meter ( in which case, the fact that you had eaten breakfast would indeed have a bearing on the result)

That’s what’s confusing me too Robin because it’s rare for a GP to make a definitive diabeties dx based on a couple of finger prick tests. Could of course been the random blood tests (from the arm) that they also do looking at a snapshot level rather than the Hba1c. However, that’s not the present health advice GP’s are given on diagnostic methods.

I think he needs to ask for his Hba1c level result in whatever format they’re recording it.

 

[Robin]

That’s what’s confusing me too Robin because it’s rare for a GP to make a definitive diabeties dx based on a couple of finger prick tests. Could of course been the random blood tests (from the arm) that they also do looking at a snapshot level rather than the Hba1c. However, that’s not the present health advice GP’s are given on diagnostic methods.

I think he needs to ask for his Hba1c level result in whatever format they’re recording it.

Agreed, I'd be surprised if a diagnosis was made from random glucose tests. But then I'm also surprised about the way the figures were presented if it was an HbA1c.
Either way, Vince, it sounds like you need to get your UK GP to clarify exactly what tests were done, and why a diagnosis was made.

 

[Vince_UK]

Right LOL where to start????🙄
Yes I am getting confused but still trying to understand this thing so forgive my ignorance.
Yes Bubbs and Amigo, the tests were carried out by the nurse on both occaisions, well she took the blood.
My GP, who I actually like, gave me the results. "Your Blood sugar level is 7.8, you're diabetic, I will put you on Metformin, better give you enough for when you're away look at the diabetic webside" End of consultation. Kind of matter of fact.
The BG level test was an aside as I went for my annual bloods to be tested mainly for PSA for prostrate cancer which terrifies me.
When I say controlled environment I mean there were no conditions attached to the blood test. Questions, preconditons etc.
Yes you are absolutely correct and I am so lucky I feel that if it hadn't been discovered when it was I would be on the path to some serious issues. For that and that alone I am more than thankful. It was a loud and clear wake up call.
The next appointment when I am back there will be some very serious questions asked by me because I am not as ignorant as I was on the 28th of September.
The main reasons for my questions is I do actually want to get of the meds and try manage it with diet etc.
I didn't even know for example, there was a "Diabetic Register". So, somewhere, on some database I am recorded and I didn't know. That I do not like at all.
The finger pricks and meter are an excellent way of watching your progress and I am trying to find stability or a narrow range of readings.
I want to show him when I get back my progress, weight, BG levels etc.
When I look at other people reading on the forum I get somewhat surprised. I am finding not to difficult at all so far to keep my BG levels between the 4-7 range. That fact alone has caused me some concern in case I am doing something wrong.
I looked at the Libre and to be honest although the unit itself is reasonably priced the sensor would be very expensive each month to maintain and I am just a poor pensioner😉

I have said it before and I will say it again, if it hadn't been for this forum and you wonderful people listening to me and all the support, I would have had absolutely no idea what to do or what emotional and mental state I would be in. It would be like driving a car without any driving lessons and being blindfolded on a German Autobahn.
I can never say Thank You enough.

 

[Vince_UK]

That’s what’s confusing me too Robin because it’s rare for a GP to make a definitive diabeties dx based on a couple of finger prick tests. Could of course been the random blood tests (from the arm) that they also do looking at a snapshot level rather than the Hba1c. However, that’s not the present health advice GP’s are given on diagnostic methods.

I think he needs to ask for his Hba1c level result in whatever format they’re recording it.

Correct exactly

 

[Vince_UK]

Agreed, I'd be surprised if a diagnosis was made from random glucose tests. But then I'm also surprised about the way the figures were presented if it was an HbA1c.
Either way, Vince, it sounds like you need to get your UK GP to clarify exactly what tests were done, and why a diagnosis was made.

Exactly Robin.Lack of information only adds to the confusion and the only number I was given was 7.8. Could have been 7.8 buckets of horse manure for all I knew and as for the HbA1C figure never mentioned and never heard of it until on this forum. I am a person who like facts, good or bad , but facts.

 

[Bubbsie]

Can I ask a question? (I'm getting confused now),
When you had the two tests at the surgery, that came out as 7.6 and 7.8, were these a simple fingerprick test with a meter like you've got now? People seem to be assuming these were an HbA1c.( the three month average of your blood glucose)

But most of the time now, results of an HbA1c are given in the new measurement which is usually a figure in the mid thirties to forties for a non-diabetic person. (they changed a couple of years ago from the % type measurement.) I'd be surprised if your surgery had given you an HbA1c result in the old style (7.6% or 7.8%).
So I'm wondering if these were indeed a 'snapshot' blood glucose measurement like you get from a meter ( in which case, the fact that you had eaten breakfast would indeed have a bearing on the result)

I was given my diagnosis test results in percentages Robin...when I asked for the HbA1c breakdown (didn't know what that was until a couple of months later)...my GP said the laboratory never provide an HbA1c breakdown on a first test...possibly an explanation...agree with @Amigo...find it hard to believe his GP would make a diagnosis on a couple of spots checks.

 

[Vince_UK]

I was given my diagnosis test results in percentages Robin...when I asked for the HbA1c breakdown (didn't know what that was until a couple of months later)...my GP said the laboratory never provide an HbA1c breakdown on a first test...possibly an explanation...agree with @Amigo...find it hard to believe his GP would make a diagnosis on a couple of spots checks.

He did Bubbs and that adds to my confusion. Never mind I will get to the bottom of it eventually.

 

[Bubbsie]

Right LOL where to start????🙄
Yes I am getting confused but still trying to understand this thing so forgive my ignorance.
Yes Bubbs and Amigo, the tests were carried out by the nurse on both occaisions, well she took the blood.
My GP, who I actually like, gave me the results. "Your Blood sugar level is 7.8, you're diabetic, I will put you on Metformin, better give you enough for when you're away look at the diabetic webside" End of consultation. Kind of matter of fact.
The BG level test was an aside as I went for my annual bloods to be tested mainly for PSA for prostrate cancer which terrifies me.
When I say controlled environment I mean there were no conditions attached to the blood test. Questions, preconditons etc.
Yes you are absolutely correct and I am so lucky I feel that if it hadn't been discovered when it was I would be on the path to some serious issues. For that and that alone I am more than thankful. It was a loud and clear wake up call.
The next appointment when I am back there will be some very serious questions asked by me because I am not as ignorant as I was on the 28th of September.
The main reasons for my questions is I do actually want to get of the meds and try manage it with diet etc.
I didn't even know for example, there was a "Diabetic Register". So, somewhere, on some database I am recorded and I didn't know. That I do not like at all.
The finger pricks and meter are an excellent way of watching your progress and I am trying to find stability or a narrow range of readings.
I want to show him when I get back my progress, weight, BG levels etc.
When I look at other people reading on the forum I get somewhat surprised. I am finding not to difficult at all so far to keep my BG levels between the 4-7 range. That fact alone has caused me some concern in case I am doing something wrong.
I looked at the Libre and to be honest although the unit itself is reasonably priced the sensor would be very expensive each month to maintain and I am just a poor pensioner😉

I have said it before and I will say it again, if it hadn't been for this forum and you wonderful people listening to me and all the support, I would have had absolutely no idea what to do or what emotional and mental state I would be in. It would be like driving a car without any driving lessons and being blindfolded on a German Autobahn.
I can never say Thank You enough.

Vince...stop driving yourself to distraction with this...you have all the right questions/points to put to your GP...time to get your thoughts in order before your appointment...you are managing well...adjusting your diet...increased activity...lost weight...you have good numbers as a result of your hard work...doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong at all......I don't believe you need the Libre or FGM...that's just an example of what continuous monitoring would be...as for future appointments you need to realise some GPs will not know a great deal about diabetes...unless they specialise or have a particular interest in it...I asked mine if he knew much about T2...,his reply was 'no not really'...each time I have a review...he learns a little more...he told me he has started recommend the Gretchen Becker book to his T2 patients...at my last review said he had something to show me I would like (no innuendo please😉😉😉)...he showed me a screen show of a course recommended for him to update his knowledge of diabetes...he is a work in progress...engage your GP...be sure of your facts...be concise...book a double appointment...he will have to address your concerns...particularly when you ask him relevant questions which indicate you know what you are talking about...but...be gentle with him.

 

[Bubbsie]

He did Bubbs and that adds to my confusion. Never mind I will get to the bottom of it eventually.

Well he has some questions to answer then Vince...don't challenge him...get him to confirm this diagnosis was based on those two random finger tests...if so...ask for an explanation...possibly something came up in your blood tests...ask the question...take it from there.

 

[clive555555]

Hi Vince, To be honest, what would have happened if you hadn't been Diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes, would your Blood Sugars gone higher, somebody has saved you the agony, of being rushed to hospital.
My undiagnosed Diabetes led to my Blood Glucose Reading in the High 20s, a trip in an ambulance and nearly two weeks in Hospital, and more Medication and self monitoring. Now you are controlling your Diabetes, losing weight and feeling better. The future is looking rosy. Soon you will be full of beans all the time. All the best clive55555

 

[Vince_UK]

Can I ask a question? (I'm getting confused now),
When you had the two tests at the surgery, that came out as 7.6 and 7.8, were these a simple fingerprick test with a meter like you've got now? People seem to be assuming these were an HbA1c.( the three month average of your blood glucose)

But most of the time now, results of an HbA1c are given in the new measurement which is usually a figure in the mid thirties to forties for a non-diabetic person. (they changed a couple of years ago from the % type measurement.) I'd be surprised if your surgery had given you an HbA1c result in the old style (7.6% or 7.8%).
So I'm wondering if these were indeed a 'snapshot' blood glucose measurement like you get from a meter ( in which case, the fact that you had eaten breakfast would indeed have a bearing on the result)

They were part of my annual blood test I have for Cholestrol and the PSA for Prostrate Cancer which killed my father and which I am mega paranoid about.
These are done at my request the BG was done as an aside at the same time Robin. THe first one gave a BG reading of 7.6 the same test was repeated and gave a reading of 7.8. For breafast I had eaten a Huge, and I mean huge, bowl of oatmeal with banana, prunes, blueberries and honey on. 2 Large mugs off coffee with 2 spoons sugar and full fat milk in each. I am convinced it must have some bearing on the resulting figures. This was about 1 hour before te blood was taken.