The truth is hard to swallow for obese Type 2 diabetes sufferers

[macabee]

I nearly choked on my very healthy muesli, no added sugar or salt I might add, when my better half showed me the article in todays Telegraph [see link below' written by Dr Max Pemberton, he opines about the cost to the NHS re diabetes prescriptions "which is connected to obesity" going on to say q.v

"but for the majority of cases, the patient is not only responsible for the condition but also has the ability to reverse it. By losing weight through dieting when first diagnosed, research has shown that many people can reverse Type 2."

As far as I am concerned he implies that we are all fat git's and it's all our fault.

I for one am outraged, or bloody annoyed whichever is the stronger.😡

How do you feel

Scroll down the article to find the offending item.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9486378/Winterbourne-View-The-problem-with-all-care-homes.html>

 

[RachelT]

Don't trust me, i'm a doctor...

The "you brought this all on yourself, you fat slob" attitude annoys me, plus would undoubtedly have actually increased the medication budget for my local PCT as then i'd have to be on anti-depressants as well as anti-diabetic meds, coupled with the fact that i'd be so ashamed and embarassed about talking to my GP about the problem i'd avoid check ups doubtlessly makimng the problem worse...
It was bad enough when i was the only one who believed it, let alone having some gimboid reinforce the idea.
But hello, what have we here?
"Accompanying the release of the new figures were calls from charities for an awareness campaign on the risk factors and symptoms. I disagree. The last thing we need is to throw yet more money at adverts and leaflets."
No, that would be silly, telling all the people at risk to how to avoid the problem in the first place, in addition to allienating the people who already have it, that would save a load of money and stress all round....(Note, heavy use of sarcasm). Is this guy a Doctor?!? Was he ill the week they did "patient management", or "bedside manner?" Whatever next, "oh, so you've got the flu, well i'm not going to do anything for you, it's all your fault for breathing.."?
But then, it is my fault really, i got the wrong parents....😉

Rachel

 

[mcdonagh47]

Ifault.

I for one am outraged, or bloody annoyed whichever is the stronger.😡

How do you feel

Scroll down the article to find the offending item.

<http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9486378/Winterbourne-View-The-problem-with-all-care-homes.html>

Pemberton was telling us in February that sugar causes diabetes ....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9062809/Can-sugar-really-be-toxic-Sadly-yes.html

 

[DeusXM]

I don't think there's any particular issue in saying excessive carb consumption can cause T2 diabetes, but it is important to caveat this by pointing out that not all cases of T2 diabetes are caused by this. T2 seems to be more a collection of diseases with similar symptoms rather than a single condition.

Pemberton also seems to ignore the point that insulin resistance actually promotes fat storage, which does raise a question over whether obesity is actually a symptom rather than a cause of diabetes.

Having said all that...I can't help by notice someone referred to muesli as healthy on the grounds it has no added salt or sugar. Unfortunately, muesli with skimmed milk is extremely high in carbohydrates, which promote fat storage. It is not as healthy as people think. Part of the issue we all really face is the doublethink that exists in the medical authorities at the moment, that tell us grains and starches are blanket 'healthy' and fat is always 'bad'. Most evidence suggests that obesity rates have exponentially increased since the war on fat began in the mid- to late-1980s and I am not entirely convinced this can all be written off as 'lifestyle'.

 

[MaryPlain]

I don't think there's any particular issue in saying excessive carb consumption can cause T2 diabetes, but it is important to caveat this by pointing out that not all cases of T2 diabetes are caused by this. T2 seems to be more a collection of diseases with similar symptoms rather than a single condition.

Pemberton also seems to ignore the point that insulin resistance actually promotes fat storage, which does raise a question over whether obesity is actually a symptom rather than a cause of diabetes.

Having said all that...I can't help by notice someone referred to muesli as healthy on the grounds it has no added salt or sugar. Unfortunately, muesli with skimmed milk is extremely high in carbohydrates, which promote fat storage. It is not as healthy as people think. Part of the issue we all really face is the doublethink that exists in the medical authorities at the moment, that tell us grains and starches are blanket 'healthy' and fat is always 'bad'. Most evidence suggests that obesity rates have exponentially increased since the war on fat began in the mid- to late-1980s and I am not entirely convinced this can all be written off as 'lifestyle'.

What would you consider to be "extremely high in carbohydrates"?

I ask because surely it depends on how large the portion is, and whether it's muesli with lots of nuts or mainly grain based.

I have 25g carbs for breakfast - 15g of which are from muesli. I don't consider that "extremely high".

 

[DeusXM]

Yes, it does of course depend on portion size and the muesli composition. Most mueslis I've seen have anywhere between 30-80g of carbs per serving, which roughly puts it on a par with cornflakes.

Low-carb is subjective although there are definitions that call for no more than 12g at breakfast and no more than a further 12g for the rest of the day.

As I'm always at pains to point out, I don't advocate cutting out carbs entirely if a person does not want to. But I do find it concerning how there is an assumption that grain is always 'good' if it's in the form of muesli or shredded wheat.

 

[Mark T]

I don't think there's any particular issue in saying excessive carb consumption can cause T2 diabetes.

I suspect that the issue is that it's probably not strictly correct. Most of what I've read in journal articles seem to point to an underlying unknown defect that causes an obese person who over consumes carbs to become T2.

Not all obese people become T2 - if it was strictly to do with diet and excessive carb consumption then all obese people would be T2.

 

[DeusXM]

Not all obese people become T2 - if it was strictly to do with diet and excessive carb consumption then all obese people would be T2.

By that logic, smoking doesn't cause CVD or lung cancer, as not every smoker develops these conditions.

The point is there are reasonable grounds to suggest that excessive carb consumption CAN cause T2. Not WILL.

If there is a genetic element whereby say, 30% of people carry a gene sequence that causes T2 if they eat too much, at the end of the day, it's still the eating too much that causes the problem. I may have some sort of genetic make-up that means if I smoke, I would get lung cancer. But if I don't smoke, I won't get it. So what would we agree would cause lung cancer in me - my genes, or my smoking?

Again, this is a completely separate point to the idea that ALL cases of T2 are caused by overeating and I would be extremely cautious about apportioning 'blame' given we actually don't know what causes T2, just that there seems to be a correlation between obesity and a separate correlation with carb consumption.

 

[mcdonagh47]

What would you consider to be "extremely high in carbohydrates"?

I ask because surely it depends on how large the portion is, and whether it's muesli with lots of nuts or mainly grain based.

I have 25g carbs for breakfast - 15g of which are from muesli. I don't consider that "extremely high".

You're a Type 1 diabetic who can inject to cover the Muesli.

It would have to be a brave Type 2 on D&e that tackled Muesli.

 

[mcdonagh47]

By that logic, smoking doesn't cause CVD or lung cancer, as not every smoker develops these conditions.

.

As the pop geneticist, Prof. Rob Jones, says if everyone smoked Lung Cancer would clearly be seen to be a genetic condition. Smoking being a trigger.

Probably the same with Type 2 Diabetes , if everyone was obese, it would be absolutely plain that it was a mostly a genetic condition at root.

 

[pgcity]

You're a Type 1 diabetic who can inject to cover the Muesli.

It would have to be a brave Type 2 on D&e that tackled Muesli.

I think 15g is low carb but the glycemic load would be high and that's what will impact on blood glucose.

 

[Otenba]

What is actually needed are uncompromising, no-nonsense dieticians and GPs with the courage to say to newly diagnosed sufferers that they are pushing themselves into disease through their inability to curb their eating habits. It?s not going to be popular, but then again, the truth often isn?t.

What I find funny about this particular paragraph of his suggestion to help with the issue is that he fails to recognise that this issue may be influenced by something like the 5 stages of grief - particularly eventual depression from denial which is something that is often neglected for both types until they come to the point where drug assistance is needed. Though saying that, it's still a system where you have to seek it out... should be offered if you ask me.

He could've worded it better really - he is saying that you guys need more support from dieticians and GPs, which is true, but he's chosen to go on the offensive on the patients. Not very professional in my opinion - clear indication he hasn't done his research properly. He does appear to be just basing this opinion on the study that was done recently in regard to the costs of diabetes to the NHS.

Ignorance of our conditions is nothing new really - try to take it with a pinch of salt. I know that's easier said than done though. Take care.

 

[Mark T]

...The point is there are reasonable grounds to suggest that excessive carb consumption CAN cause T2. Not WILL...

I'm not actually disagreeing with you here. I analyze technical requirements definitions for a living and I can differentiate between 'can' and 'will' - sadly many journalists and politicians can't or choose not too (as it suits them).

I'd personally wonder how many cases of Type 2 are presumed to be due to weight/excessive calorific consumption. From the people I've met around here I would guess that in reality they are actually rarer the Type 1 (maybe even rarer then MODY). But we will probably never know the truth since Doctors can barely diagnose Type 1 or Type 2 correctly let alone a subtype of Type 2.

 

[MaryPlain]

Yes, it does of course depend on portion size and the muesli composition. Most mueslis I've seen have anywhere between 30-80g of carbs per serving, which roughly puts it on a par with cornflakes.

Low-carb is subjective although there are definitions that call for no more than 12g at breakfast and no more than a further 12g for the rest of the day.

As I'm always at pains to point out, I don't advocate cutting out carbs entirely if a person does not want to. But I do find it concerning how there is an assumption that grain is always 'good' if it's in the form of muesli or shredded wheat.

Of course, as always, you talk great sense. I was only quibbling with the "extremely high" comment, not trying to pretend that in any way it would fit into a "Low carb" diet. I suppose I just think that most people are probably somewhere in between.