Hi

[Leadinglights]

That's the problem, my diet is (or always has been) based around potatoes (occasionally rice) and bread to bulk meals out. I usually eat large portions; it wouldn't be unusual to have 6 slices of bread and butter with a meal such as chicken/fish and chips. Or a roast dinner with lots of roast potatoes and Yorkshire puddings. Plenty of sandwiches too, usually 4 or 6 slices of bread. My entire diet is now basically off limits.

I think that does need to change otherwise you will not be able to make any improvement but I think you realise that, it is just how to do it with your restricted food likes.
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[Buffybegood]

I think that does need to change otherwise you will not be able to make any improvement but I think you realise that, it is just how to do it with your restricted food likes.
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I do realise it, and I've already changed it drastically, down to 2 slices of medium bread (as opposed to 6, 8, 10 or 12 slices of thick Warburtons Toastie white bread) and 200-240g of potatoes a day, yet my BS reading are still miles too high.

 

[Buffybegood]

You don't seem to be eating an excessive amount of carbs given that you are taking gliclazide so you may need to give it a bit more time to start to be effective as your pancreas has to 'learn' to produce more insulin. I have seen it suggested that you take the medication 30min before eating to give it a head start in working to metabolise the carbs.
It may be that you need to have less carbs at any one meal to not increase your blood glucose by more than 3mmol/l after 2 hours than it was just before eating. 2 slices of toast could be nearly 40g carbs depending on the bread and the potatoes anything up to 65g carbs depending on how they were cooked, boiled in skins being least at about 45g to roasted at the higher end. And that is quite a lot at any one meal.

Tbh I'm more concerned by the baseline or fasting level atm, than any increase caused by a particular meal; maybe that's wrong, but if I'm much higher than is recommended as a post food maximum when I've not eaten for 12 hours, then I'm always on a loser.

 

[Leadinglights]

Tbh I'm more concerned by the baseline or fasting level atm, than any increase caused by a particular meal; maybe that's wrong, but if I'm much higher than is recommended as a post food maximum when I've not eaten for 12 hours, then I'm always on a loser.

By reducing the meal increases then the baseline and fasting levels will start to come down because you won't have excess glucose in your system. It is a gradual process and won't happen overnight.

 

[Buffybegood]

By reducing the meal increases then the baseline and fasting levels will start to come down because you won't have excess glucose in your system. It is a gradual process and won't happen overnight.

I do understand that, and obviously I'm doing my best to restrict my carb intake, but I'm going to be starving hungry if I cut them any lower (and yes, I am eating more protein to try and reduce hunger pangs). I guess I just meant that with my low/fasting level still so high, I can't win unless I eat nothing.

 

[BobbleHat]

Hi @Buffybegood.

I was diagnosed a year ago with T2. I've been missing from the forum for a few months (mental health, work yada yada - won't bore you with the story) but, honestly, this forum was a god send in the early days of my diagnosis. The people here are knowledgeable and compassionate. I say that because I can see you're having a rough do of it at the moment. We really do get it - I described my diagnosis as a bereavement and the grief is real. But please keep posting so you can access the emotional/practical support here.

You mention being discouraged by high morning numbers. Has anyone talked to you about Dawn phenomenon or 'foot on the floor'? A lot of us find our morning readings are the last to fall into line when managing our diabetes. It seems counter intuitive - that number has nothing to with food and if I'm not eating, why are my numbers jumping? Our livers are nearly as involved in diabetes as our pancreas is. When we fast, our helpful liver thinks we need a kick-start of energy to get us going and pumps glucose into our system so we can be up and at them before we eat. As we reduce our numbers, our livers become a little less unruly and start to behave better. So, rather than looking to your morning numbers and panicking that you'll never sustain this, flip the thinking and note that your morning numbers will be high but, as you work out what you want to eat and your meds start to work for you, that's when your fasting numbers will start to look different. My fasting numbers, even in remission, tend to be higher (normal but high normal!) than my numbers thevrest of the day.

As for food - I love Freshwell very much and eat from their meal plans regularly but it's a low carb plan not specifically a diabetes plan - and the one thing about diabetes is how individualised our responses to foods can be. I don't limit carrots because, from wearing a monitor, I know that don't affect my blood glucose badly so they're 'green' for me. Don't be afraid to learn your own body's responses to the foods you like and tailor what you eat to your preferences snd your own responses. It's not a diet so it needs to be sustainable, and enjoyable. You might not be able to believe it but I actually prefer my food now! But it's taken a year to get a repertoire of meals that fits me. Hopefully, with help you'll get there too.

 

[Buffybegood]

Hi @BobbleHat

You mention being discouraged by high morning numbers. Has anyone talked to you about Dawn phenomenon or 'foot on the floor'? A lot of us find our morning readings are the last to fall into line when managing our diabetes. It seems counter intuitive - that number has nothing to with food and if I'm not eating, why are my numbers jumping? Our livers are nearly as involved in diabetes as our pancreas is. When we fast, our helpful liver thinks we need a kick-start of energy to get us going and pumps glucose into our system so we can be up and at them before we eat. As we reduce our numbers, our livers become a little less unruly and start to behave better. So, rather than looking to your morning numbers and panicking that you'll never sustain this, flip the thinking and note that your morning numbers will be high but, as you work out what you want to eat and your meds start to work for you, that's when your fasting numbers will start to look different. My fasting numbers, even in remission, tend to be higher (normal but high normal!) than my numbers thevrest of the day.

I have read about the "foot on the floor" effect in various threads here, but thanks for pointing it out. Unfortunately all my numbers seem very high, not just my morning ones. Today's just been a very bad day; I've been really good with watching my carbs the last few days, and yet my BS level was back almost to where I started from.

As for food - I love Freshwell very much and eat from their meal plans regularly but it's a low carb plan not specifically a diabetes plan - and the one thing about diabetes is how individualised our responses to foods can be. I don't limit carrots because, from wearing a monitor, I know that don't affect my blood glucose badly so they're 'green' for me. Don't be afraid to learn your own body's responses to the foods you like and tailor what you eat to your preferences snd your own responses. It's not a diet so it needs to be sustainable, and enjoyable. You might not be able to believe it but I actually prefer my food now! But it's taken a year to get a repertoire of meals that fits me. Hopefully, with help you'll get there too.

The problem is I like literally nothing from their green foods apart from meat; I can barely get down to 130g of carbs as it is and that's without any snacks such as even an apple let alone any treats. It's extremely depressing knowing I can't eat anything I want to, and to make matters worse it's still not working. The prospect of having to eat food I don't like for the rest of my life is just horrible.

 

[Felinia]

Sorry to read that you are struggling. It's still very early in your journey and it takes time for levels to reduce. It's not like pulling the plug out of the bath and all the water runs away. In fact if glucose levels reduce too quickly, it can affect your eyes temporarily. I suggest you monitor immediately before and 2 hours after eating to see what affects you, and to keep your daily records, to see if there is a downward trend at all over time. This is all evidence you could take to your GP, if you feel concerned enough to go back to them. If there is no improvement over time you can request to be further tested for Type 1.

 

[Buffybegood]

Sorry to read that you are struggling.

Thanks, it's amazing how a drop of blood can make such a difference to one's mood and day; today I feel so much better after a personal best low of 11.6 . What I don't understand is that yesterday I ate exactly the same as on Saturday, only with some Greek yoghurt and berries extra. Yet yesterday morning I was 17 (up from 14.2 the previous day), and this morning I'm 11.6, I just don't understand it at all.

I do apologise to everyone for being so negative yesterday; the extremely limited dietary options that I find remotely palatable is a huge issue for me going forward, and to stick to that for, as it seemed yesterday, no apparent improvement, just really got to me.

 

[helli]

What I don't understand is that yesterday I ate exactly the same as on Saturday, only with some Greek yoghurt and berries extra. Yet yesterday morning I was 17 (up from 14.2 the previous day), and this morning I'm 11.6, I just don't understand it at all.

It would be so easy if diabetes was only affected by what we eat. However, there are many other things which can affect our BG such as stress, illness, exercise, weather, alcohol, how well we sleep, ...
And some of these can feel like getting into a spiral - we are stressed so our BG goes high. High BG stresses us out more which raises BG further. Which stresses us more which ...
I think the only time you can expect exactly the same BG results from exactly the same food is if you live in a sterilised room with no influence from the outside world.
Sometimes the forum suggests the problem is the colour of the socks you are wearing but, in this heat, I don't wear socks and my BG still varies.

 

[Docb]

Hi @Buffybegood. Don't worry about being a bit negative on the forum, its a good place to get things out of your system knowing that lots on here will know exactly how you are feeling.

When it comes to the numbers, it is easy to forget that your blood glucose at any time is affected by loads of things, not just the food you might have eaten recently. As a general thing you can expect eating something to cause an increase in BG but you can eat the same thing under similar circumstances and get different increases simply because stuff going on in your system over which you have no control is affecting things. You need to look for patterns over the long term.

 

[Drummer]

I do understand that, and obviously I'm doing my best to restrict my carb intake, but I'm going to be starving hungry if I cut them any lower (and yes, I am eating more protein to try and reduce hunger pangs). I guess I just meant that with my low/fasting level still so high, I can't win unless I eat nothing.

Fortunately for many people reducing carbs means reducing hunger - I don't think I have been hungry in 8 years except when trying one of the experiments I embark on from time to time, and then only briefly.
There is always something you can eat when doing low carb, but I find that I forget to eat several times a week - the mozzarella cheese I was going to have for breakfast today is still on the freezer where I put it down and my husband just asked about.
My need for food is quite low, some days I don't have more than a few grams of carb - I would have had a tomato with the cheese, or maybe celery.

 

[CurlyWurly]

@Buffybegood - Have you looked at buying some low carb bread instead then you can eat a fair few slices at once. It's nowhere near as good and the slices are always smaller and it's expensive but you do get used to it. Try any of these sites:

Low-carb sourdough bread from Robert Andrew

Our bakers have created low carb sourdough bread – developed to reduce the carbs, boost the protein and deliver delicious low-carb options.

lowcarbsourdough.co.uk

https://srslylowcarb.com/

Heylo | Low-carb bakery | UK Keto Bread | Weight loss & Lifestyle

Welcome to Heylo, home to the UK's best quality keto bread and bakery products. Whether you are following a low-carb diet for health, weight loss or other lifestyle reasons, you'll LOVE that our products taste, smell and feel just like the real thing. Come and see what we have to offer!

weareheylo.com

There's loads of others as well, just google keto and the name of the food you like and you'll find various options and recipes. I didn't like Heylo stuff very much, srslylowcarb was better but Robert Andrew is my favourite and tastes pretty good though it's 5 grams of carbs per slice compared to 1-2 for the other places.

Or if you just want to go to the supermarket try Jason's Protein Sourdough bread (https://www.jasonssourdough.co.uk/pages/protein-loaf). It's 12 grams per slice which is about half that of regular bread and tastes pretty good.

 

[Buffybegood]

Thanks for the suggestions @CurlyWurly but I think I'd be bankrupt if I started eating those , absolutely ridiculously priced.

Seriously, what do people who previously ate lots of potatoes, bread and rice and who don't like veggies or salad do to bulk out their meals? I can't be the only person with T2 that doesn't eat "rabbit food", yet all the recipes I see are made up almost entirely of food items I don't like. I'm used to eating large meals, there's only so much padding out I can do with carrots and broccoli before I'll be sick of those too. I feel like I've been almost constantly hungry for days, but I struggle to get close to 130g of carbs, and feel like this is just not going to be remotely viable long term. And that's without any treats, or, heaven forbid, a beer or two.

 

[Leadinglights]

Thanks for the suggestions @CurlyWurly but I think I'd be bankrupt if I started eating those , absolutely ridiculously priced.

Seriously, what do people who previously ate lots of potatoes, bread and rice and who don't like veggies or salad do to bulk out their meals? I can't be the only person with T2 that doesn't eat "rabbit food", yet all the recipes I see are made up almost entirely of food items I don't like. I'm used to eating large meals, there's only so much padding out I can do with carrots and broccoli before I'll be sick of those too. I feel like I've been almost constantly hungry for days, but I struggle to get close to 130g of carbs, and feel like this is just not going to be remotely viable long term. And that's without any treats, or, heaven forbid, a beer or two.

A suggestion when people had previously been eating a large amount of carbs like bread, potatoes, rice, pasta is to reduce your intake over a few weeks, so cut down by 1 third for a couple of weeks, then another third etc until you get to the 130g region. At the same time increase healthy fats and protein and by cutting down on carbs you will probably feel less hungry.
Many people do try to adapt their diet to include more veg and salad often finding more ways of cooking them or having raw. Increase you fluid intake as that can sometimes help.

 

[Buffybegood]

Increase you fluid intake as that can sometimes help.

I was drinking 6 or 7 litres a day before diagnosis, I can do without increasing that or I'll really be living in the loo .

Thanks for your suggestions though, they are genuinely appreciated. It is very daunting though, I would usually eat at least 6 slices of thick white bread a day, and often it would be 12, and that's on top of a large portion of chips or potatoes depending on what I was cooking that day (I'm just talking about the carbs here, there would be meat to go with them). Replacing 90% or so of what I've been eating is a huge ask as I don't like almost all of the suggested alternatives.

 

[Leadinglights]

I was drinking 6 or 7 litres a day before diagnosis, I can do without increasing that or I'll really be living in the loo .

Thanks for your suggestions though, they are genuinely appreciated. It is very daunting though, I would usually eat at least 6 slices of thick white bread a day, and often it would be 12, and that's on top of a large portion of chips or potatoes depending on what I was cooking that day (I'm just talking about the carbs here, there would be meat to go with them). Replacing 90% or so of what I've been eating is a huge ask as I don't like almost all of the suggested alternatives.

I may be a big ask but I don't know if you have family but my motivation to make changes was I did not want my family to have to be my carer though all the unpleasant consequences of unmanaged diabetes.
I have a friend who clearly had made little change to his diet and has ended up having to have his car converted to hand controls as he has no feeling in his feet and can no longer participate in hobbies that were a big part of his life.

 

[Buffybegood]

I have already made significant changes, but it strikes me that I've got a pretty miserable future ahead of me if my only options are to be hungry or to eat food I don't like.

 

[CurlyWurly]

Thanks for the suggestions @CurlyWurly but I think I'd be bankrupt if I started eating those , absolutely ridiculously priced.

Seriously, what do people who previously ate lots of potatoes, bread and rice and who don't like veggies or salad do to bulk out their meals? I can't be the only person with T2 that doesn't eat "rabbit food", yet all the recipes I see are made up almost entirely of food items I don't like. I'm used to eating large meals, there's only so much padding out I can do with carrots and broccoli before I'll be sick of those too. I feel like I've been almost constantly hungry for days, but I struggle to get close to 130g of carbs, and feel like this is just not going to be remotely viable long term. And that's without any treats, or, heaven forbid, a beer or two.

Have you thought about making your own bread? You can also make the 90 second microwave bread, here's one example - https://gimmedelicious.com/90-second-keto-bread/ but you can google for others. I had some this morning with eggs and it's lovely.

Ultimately if you want to continue eating 6-12 slices of bread a day you can either:
- Make your own
- Buy special low carb bread
- Buy lower carb supermarket bread e.g. Jasons Protein, Warburtons Light
- Eat normal bread with all the carbs

Those are your options so you need to think about what works for you or think about reducing your bread consumption.

For pasta you can buy lower carb replacements, H&B do black bean and edamame noodles for example - https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/search/?query=noodle which are fairly nice especially with mince meat.

I probably eat less than 50 grams of carbs most days and don't feel hungry, I eat lots of fish, eggs, meat, dairy, veg etc.

What foods do you actually like apart from bread, pasta and potatoes? End of the day you're going to have to change your diet and eat different foods from before, if you just carry on then things will likely get worse. I do find you adapt to things over time, for example the bread and pasta replacements aren't as nice but because I've not had the normal stuff for so long I don't really remember what it tastes like.

For beer you can buy low carb beer e.g. https://westbrooksbrewery.co.uk/ does really nice stuff and there's others too.

It's worth spending some time googling around for recipes and ideas, look on reddit ketouk etc and there's actually a lot more options than you think.

 

[Buffybegood]

Have you thought about making your own bread? You can also make the 90 second microwave bread, here's one example - https://gimmedelicious.com/90-second-keto-bread/ but you can google for others. I had some this morning with eggs and it's lovely.

Thanks, I'll definitely give that a try when I've next been shopping .

Ultimately if you want to continue eating 6-12 slices of bread a day you can either:

I realise I won't be able to eat those quantities of bread going forward, it's just that losing so much of the bulk of my meals with no/little bread or potatoes leaves a huge hole in the quantity of food that I eat, with basically just food I don't like as the only alternative to fill it.

What foods do you actually like apart from bread, pasta and potatoes?

Who said I eat pasta ? Can't stand the stuff, at least I don't mind not eating that.

For beer you can buy low carb beer e.g. https://westbrooksbrewery.co.uk/ does really nice stuff and there's others too.

Thanks for that link .


I guess it's all just a bit overwhelming atm, nearly all the links or suggestions are for stuff I just don't like. I get that I need to cut down hugely on the bread and potatoes, but if you take those out of my diet there's not a lot left to bulk out meals around the meat. It doesn't help that it doesn't feel as though my BS is falling as fast as it should given the changes I've already made (back up to 13.4 at 7.45 this morning, and having not eaten yet, it's still 12.9 now, just about to have brunch), and it's really depressing to think that this is my life going forward.