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How low before symptoms of hypo?

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This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
Be very careful as in the eyes of the DVLA you are hypo unaware thus can not hold a driving licence.
You need to think about lowering your insulin and running a bit higher to bring your awareness back and perhaps set your libre alarms a bit higher so you catch the hypo before it catches you.

"Impaired awareness of hypoglycaemia
The Panel has also defined impaired awareness of hypoglycaemia for Group 1 drivers as ‘an inability to detect the onset of hypoglycaemia because of total absence of warning symptoms’"

I do get warning signs before a hypo event though.... So I'm not "unaware" and get enough warning signs to be able to bring my vehicle to a controlled stop, safely. How do you know I'm not Fat Adapted? I would be crazy to give up my driving licence when I feel absolutely fine and have no detrimental effects. I am a chartered member of the Institute of Occupational Health & Safety so I am sure I am qualified to assess risk and I wouldn't drive if I felt I was risking my life let alone someone else. I am not concerned by hypo unawareness as like I've stated, before any symptoms I have always got notice that they are coming.

I seem to fairly often through the night dip below 3.9 but again I've not had hypo symptoms in nearly 2 months now and naturally seem to come out of the zone with no intervention and wake up usually around 5.6mmol .... I am still awaiting test results from my original admittance.

I average 5.3mmol but I have found the highs above 13 never actually get that high.

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I do get warning signs before a hypo event though.... So I'm not "unaware" and get enough warning signs to be able to bring my vehicle to a controlled stop, safely. How do you know I'm not Fat Adapted? I would be crazy to give up my driving licence when I feel absolutely fine and have no detrimental effects. I am a chartered member of the Institute of Occupational Health & Safety so I am sure I am qualified to assess risk and I wouldn't drive if I felt I was risking my life let alone someone else. I am not concerned by hypo unawareness as like I've stated, before any symptoms I have always got notice that they are coming.
What do you call a hypo event and what signs do you get?
Clearly you have had quite a few dips into the red in the last 3 weeks let alone 7 weeks when you say above that you have had no hypos, apart from this one, so your understanding of hypos may well vary from ours and perhaps your understanding of hypo awareness also differs. I have not found a very clear definition of what it means and there are very odd occasions when my levels have surprised me with a low 3 and I haven't felt it until after I tested but at least 95% of the time I feel them at low 4s or high 3s.... bearing in mind the limited accuracy of our measuring devices. Certainly during the night when we are asleep, we are much less likely to detect it early because our senses are not so effective... ie. eyes closed in the dark so no vision disruption/impairment, lying down so no wobbly legs etc.

I think the terminology around hypos and hypo awareness is a bit flakey. A hypo is generally considered a reading below 4 for us insulin dependent diabetics, even though non diabetics can drop below 4. That is not to say we can't function perfectly well a bit below 4 but we need to be aware of it so that we can take action before it drops lower and does affect our mental capacity.

Ideally you want to be getting your first warning signs in the low 4s or high 3s, but this is the minor signs, not the real hypo symptoms. One of my first signs is my peripheral vision going slightly blurry even though my main vision is good. When I am out walking, even though I have Libre, this is something I consciously assess quite regularly. I usually walk/run on my own in rural areas at odd times of the day and night, so keeping my wits about me is important, because if anything happened, it would be a long time before anyone found me, so I semi consciously self assess every now and then. I also scan regularly so I have an idea of where my levels are and where they are headed. I am not at all anxious about it and it doesn't spoil or interfere with my enjoyment or stop me from going out alone but I just pay a little attention to my peripheral vision for a second or two every 10 -15 mins or I scan. Another sign is sometimes a tiny suggestion of indigestion. A sort of little tummy butterfly/flip maybe just once or sometimes a feeling like I am wrapped in cotton wool and sort of a bit wooly headed/isolated from my surroundings. More obvious is the lip or tongue tingle but I don't get all these signs every time. Usually at least one of them and the peripheral vision burryness is the most consistent early sign for me and these signs happen probably 5 mins or more before the adrenaline pumping, heart pounding, cold sweat, jelly legs of a full hypo, so if I treat at this level, I can prevent the full hypo and carry on doing what I am doing.

These early warning signs are different for different people. If your levels are dropping fast then you can drop through these early warning signs before you notice or experience them and just reach the adrenaline surge which should trigger your liver to kick in and release glucose to bring you back up if your levels aren't dropping too quickly which is how you can recover from night time hypos without waking up, but don't ever rely on that mechanism.

I don't think being fat adapted is all that relevant. From my understanding being fat adapted just means that your body has a steady stream of glucose being released rather than a spike from carbs and then tailing off, but if your insulin dose is dropping you faster than your glucose release from fat and protein, then you will still hypo.

I see your signature shows you as being on fixed doses of NR. Is that still the case or are you carb counting now? With fixed doses, you are going to be at greater risk of more dramatic hypos, particularly when exercising, so perhaps this is why you are not experiencing the early hypo signs until you get too low and have a full hypo. I also see that you are on Toujeo which is not very flexible for adjusting for exercise. I would hypo regularly during the night if I used Toujeo because my levels drop during the night after exercise and I need to reduce my evening Levemir dose to try to prevent that. That is just me and my body, but these are all things to discuss with your nurse or consultant and push for a DAFNE course or whatever your local equivalent is to help you understand it all better and improve your carb counting and dose adjustment.

I would also ask where your low Libre alarm is set? It needs to be above 4 to enable you to prevent yourself dropping below 4. I have very fast digestion and I follow a low carb way of eating and adjust my bolus insulin accordingly so my levels rarely drop fast and therefore a jelly baby or two at 4.2 can prevent me dropping into the red but if you get fast drops in BG perhaps due to fixed doses and exercise, then 5 might be a better level for your low alarm until you get better at managing your levels.
As mentioned, you will also be in your honeymoon period which means your own pancreas may throw a spanner in the works with some of your own insulin which will also contribute to dropping your levels fast.

I would encourage you to be more conscious of your levels when you are exercising particularly and try to correlate how you are feeling, seeing, hearing with your levels, so that you develop a better sensitivity to when your levels are getting close to the red line or crossing it. We are so lucky to have the convenience of Libre (and other CGM) to enable us to scan whenever we like and see what our levels are doing all the time, but it is important to learn to listen to our bodies too and be able to detect small changes that tip us off to low and indeed high levels rather than just rely on the alarms.

I do wonder if this will become an increasing problem for people who have Libre from the start and stop "looking out" for the sometimes subtle signals their body gives them that levels are dropping low or going high.
 
I think the terminology around hypos and hypo awareness is a bit flakey
I totally agree.
The first thing I did after reading the OP was to read the guidelines, and they never actually define what ‘hypoglycaemia' means, in terms of what the average person ought to be looking out for. Feeling perfectly Ok until a split second before you pass out with a BG of less than 2 is obviously not OK. But the wording nowhere says at what level you should be feeling the symptoms.
The closest the wording comes, is saying that if you discover you are below 4.0 OR feel hypo symptoms whilst driving, you should pull over, thereby assuming that 4.0 is the point at which you OUGHT to be feeling hypo, even if you’re not,
But there’s nothing in the regs that says you have to test more frequently than your 2 hourly test if you’re not feeling hypo. I think it's implied that if you don’t feel your hypos at 4.0, then you have impaired hypo awareness, but it doesn’t actually say so.. Presumably if you have a Libre and your alarm goes off, that’s an indication that you should pull over and check with a finger prick, but if you’re not using a Libre, there’s no way you’d know until you stop and do your next 2hr test.
 
@Robin I agree with you....Also, you are not going to feel hypo symptoms on or above 4 every time and again, meters are not reliable so what your meter shows as above 4 may not be so. I have recently purchased Optium test strips for my Libre reader and having used it on about 10 occasions it has read lower than my Libre sensor and each time, I have checked it and found that my Caresens is as much as 0.5 higher in that 3.5-4.5 range, so it now has me questioning if my hypo awareness is as good as I think it is if my Caresens is consistently reading slightly high or is it the Libre Optium strips which are consistently reading a bit low, especially when the sensor reading falls in the middle. Much as I hate the Caresens because it eats batteries and suffers from the cold, I trust the reading it gives over these Optium strips, but is that just because I have developed trust in it and trust in the Libre to a slightly lesser extent and it is reading lower than both or am I kidding myself?

What I am saying is the lack of absolute measurement of BG and of course human body individuality means that the definition of hypo and hypo awareness cannot be absolute because we can't accurately measure and relate it for each individual.
 
What do you call a hypo event and what signs do you get?
Clearly you have had quite a few dips into the red in the last 3 weeks let alone 7 weeks when you say above that you have had no hypos, apart from this one, so your understanding of hypos may well vary from ours and perhaps your understanding of hypo awareness also differs. I have not found a very clear definition of what it means and there are very odd occasions when my levels have surprised me with a low 3 and I haven't felt it until after I tested but at least 95% of the time I feel them at low 4s or high 3s.... bearing in mind the limited accuracy of our measuring devices. Certainly during the night when we are asleep, we are much less likely to detect it early because our senses are not so effective... ie. eyes closed in the dark so no vision disruption/impairment, lying down so no wobbly legs etc.

I think the terminology around hypos and hypo awareness is a bit flakey. A hypo is generally considered a reading below 4 for us insulin dependent diabetics, even though non diabetics can drop below 4. That is not to say we can't function perfectly well a bit below 4 but we need to be aware of it so that we can take action before it drops lower and does affect our mental capacity.

Ideally you want to be getting your first warning signs in the low 4s or high 3s, but this is the minor signs, not the real hypo symptoms. One of my first signs is my peripheral vision going slightly blurry even though my main vision is good. When I am out walking, even though I have Libre, this is something I consciously assess quite regularly. I usually walk/run on my own in rural areas at odd times of the day and night, so keeping my wits about me is important, because if anything happened, it would be a long time before anyone found me, so I semi consciously self assess every now and then. I also scan regularly so I have an idea of where my levels are and where they are headed. I am not at all anxious about it and it doesn't spoil or interfere with my enjoyment or stop me from going out alone but I just pay a little attention to my peripheral vision for a second or two every 10 -15 mins or I scan. Another sign is sometimes a tiny suggestion of indigestion. A sort of little tummy butterfly/flip maybe just once or sometimes a feeling like I am wrapped in cotton wool and sort of a bit wooly headed/isolated from my surroundings. More obvious is the lip or tongue tingle but I don't get all these signs every time. Usually at least one of them and the peripheral vision burryness is the most consistent early sign for me and these signs happen probably 5 mins or more before the adrenaline pumping, heart pounding, cold sweat, jelly legs of a full hypo, so if I treat at this level, I can prevent the full hypo and carry on doing what I am doing.

These early warning signs are different for different people. If your levels are dropping fast then you can drop through these early warning signs before you notice or experience them and just reach the adrenaline surge which should trigger your liver to kick in and release glucose to bring you back up if your levels aren't dropping too quickly which is how you can recover from night time hypos without waking up, but don't ever rely on that mechanism.

I don't think being fat adapted is all that relevant. From my understanding being fat adapted just means that your body has a steady stream of glucose being released rather than a spike from carbs and then tailing off, but if your insulin dose is dropping you faster than your glucose release from fat and protein, then you will still hypo.

I see your signature shows you as being on fixed doses of NR. Is that still the case or are you carb counting now? With fixed doses, you are going to be at greater risk of more dramatic hypos, particularly when exercising, so perhaps this is why you are not experiencing the early hypo signs until you get too low and have a full hypo. I also see that you are on Toujeo which is not very flexible for adjusting for exercise. I would hypo regularly during the night if I used Toujeo because my levels drop during the night after exercise and I need to reduce my evening Levemir dose to try to prevent that. That is just me and my body, but these are all things to discuss with your nurse or consultant and push for a DAFNE course or whatever your local equivalent is to help you understand it all better and improve your carb counting and dose adjustment.

I would also ask where your low Libre alarm is set? It needs to be above 4 to enable you to prevent yourself dropping below 4. I have very fast digestion and I follow a low carb way of eating and adjust my bolus insulin accordingly so my levels rarely drop fast and therefore a jelly baby or two at 4.2 can prevent me dropping into the red but if you get fast drops in BG perhaps due to fixed doses and exercise, then 5 might be a better level for your low alarm until you get better at managing your levels.
As mentioned, you will also be in your honeymoon period which means your own pancreas may throw a spanner in the works with some of your own insulin which will also contribute to dropping your levels fast.

I would encourage you to be more conscious of your levels when you are exercising particularly and try to correlate how you are feeling, seeing, hearing with your levels, so that you develop a better sensitivity to when your levels are getting close to the red line or crossing it. We are so lucky to have the convenience of Libre (and other CGM) to enable us to scan whenever we like and see what our levels are doing all the time, but it is important to learn to listen to our bodies too and be able to detect small changes that tip us off to low and indeed high levels rather than just rely on the alarms.

I do wonder if this will become an increasing problem for people who have Libre from the start and stop "looking out" for the sometimes subtle signals their body gives them that levels are dropping low or going high.
As always thanks for your detailed reply. Every single time I've experienced a hypo I get 10 minutes warning before symptoms. The last time I had one I made sure to take note of the symptoms prior to going full hypo;

- Palpitations
- Sweaty hands but then profusely sweat everywhere
- Shaking
- Anxiety (almost first thing I notice)
- A bit light headed
- Feeling weak
- Drop in energy (this feels different from a normal drop in energy as I can feel it in my legs more)

If I detect a single one of them I test myself and take action if required, and yes I can detect subtle changes in my body easily as I believe I am in tune with it; it's why I told my GP 5 weeks before being admitted to hospital that I had diabetes. It was his inaction that put me there, not me not knowing my body. So far I have not gone back to any real exercise tbh; not until I am carb counting. So far just small exercise at home in my safe space. I am still on a fixed dose and only adjust if I am high, so far I've not had to adjust my dose in the last 2 months. I will push for the DAPHNE course though.

I haven't received my Antibody test results back but I have been told by my DSN that my pancreas is producing "virtually no insulin at all". Personally I don't feel with such consistent levels that the honeymoon period is really affecting me tbh.

I'll set my alarm higher and see how that goes but if it's getting annoying then I'll silence it and go back to listening to my body.

I am very reluctant to speak to my Diabetic Nurse if I am honest as if I am reported to the DVLA and they revoke my licence I lose my career and I am the main provider in my house; and then this conversation is almost pointless 🙂 If they agree it's confidential then maybe but not if they have a legal duty to report me. I think someone is mad if they do that especially since I meet the guidance of testing prior to a drive and "planning the trip". I have bags of sweets on hand in my car in case I ever start to feel a hypo coming on.

Maybe my Basal is too high??
 
As always thanks for your detailed reply. Every single time I've experienced a hypo I get 10 minutes warning before symptoms. The last time I had one I made sure to take note of the symptoms prior to going full hypo;

- Palpitations
- Sweaty hands but then profusely sweat everywhere
- Shaking
- Anxiety (almost first thing I notice)
- A bit light headed
- Feeling weak
- Drop in energy (this feels different from a normal drop in energy as I can feel it in my legs more)
If these are your pre hypo signs, then I am back to my original question of "What do call a hypo event? ie what constitutes a full hypo in your eyes?

To me shaking and palpitations and sweating are a full hypo. I am talking about very subtle signs that occur before that.
 
If these are your pre hypo signs, then I am back to my original question of "What do call a hypo event? ie what constitutes a full hypo in your eyes?

To me shaking and palpitations and sweating are a full hypo. I am talking about very subtle signs that occur before that.
To me experiencing those symptoms is a full hypo, I can certainly feel one as I get all those symptoms and the main one is crazy sweating; I have to stop and take action immediately as I have no choice, but I also feel them coming and can stop them before if I treat myself as soon as I feel the symptoms beginning. Being within the hypo range and suffering from a hypo event to me are separate things. I am probably wrong but I am just listening to my body

Maybe I need to change to pork insulin
 
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To me experiencing those symptoms is a full hypo, I can certainly feel one as I get all those symptoms and the main one is crazy sweating; I have to stop and take action immediately as I have no choice, but I also feel them coming and can stop them before if I treat myself as soon as I feel the symptoms beginning. Being within the hypo range and suffering from a hypo event to me are separate things. I am probably wrong but I am just listening to my body

Maybe I need to change to pork insulin 🙂

Maybe just put down that hypo other day where you got no warnings as a one off, if it comes to point where its regular occurance then you need to address problem.
 
If they agree it's confidential then maybe but not if they have a legal duty to report me.
If a medical professional advises you not to drive then your licence isn’t valid regardless of whether you tell the DVLA or not.
 
The first thing I did after reading the OP was to read the guidelines, and they never actually define what ‘hypoglycaemia' means, in terms of what the average person ought to be looking out for.
They do define it, in the help text, as a blood sugar below 4 mmol, and they tell you what signs to look for. It also says you must have symptoms below 3, which the OP doesn’t have.
 

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They do define it, in the help text, as a blood sugar below 4 mmol, and they tell you what signs to look for. It also says you must have symptoms below 3, which the OP doesn’t have.
That’s interesting, and typical of Civil Service drafting that it’s tucked away in an obscure place.
 
That’s interesting, and typical of Civil Service drafting that it’s tucked away in an obscure place.
It’s easily found and linked to when you fill in the application or google diab1 help it comes up top
 
It’s easily found and linked to when you fill in the application or google diab1 help it comes up top
I Googled Diab1 help, and could only find a publication that said it was withdrawn in 2017. (It doesn’t have the exemption for night time hypos, or any ref to Flash monitoring, for example) I’ve been unable to find an up to date one.
 
To me experiencing those symptoms is a full hypo, I can certainly feel one as I get all those symptoms and the main one is crazy sweating; I have to stop and take action immediately as I have no choice, but I also feel them coming and can stop them before if I treat myself as soon as I feel the symptoms beginning. Being within the hypo range and suffering from a hypo event to me are separate things. I am probably wrong but I am just listening to my body

Maybe I need to change to pork insulin 🙂
Porcine insulin? Nah, you don’t wanna do that. My experience is like getting hit hard & fast by a “ninja” with no clue to the presence.?

Doing “maff” (or maths.) can be an early onset for me (tracked my BGs during a hypo event. used to experiment in my youth.) or the feeling of “walking into an room” & not understanding “why?” eyesight. Though blurred. There can be a “gossamer” green blue hue in the vision like a map of France? Lower field of vision. There can be a flickering white LED show or a shimmer? (A bit tricky on a hot beach or swimming, viewing the scenery.)

Wind out of the sails. Plus lack of the “usual” confidence. Loss of train of thought. & talking esoteric nonsense.

I would have to let the hypo go way to far below the 3’s before the “classic” stereotypical symptoms occur.

I’ve experienced a hypo in the presence of a couple of nurses at appointments in my time. They didn’t have a clue. The thought I just looked “bored?” As I got the meter out. “Give me a couple of minutes.” As I excused myself.

As long as you generally detect something. Test & low. Then you recognise “your symptoms.”

They are individual. Some can taste w “metallic” taste in the mouth? Not my experience. All that matters is you keep conscious & treat.
 
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