Learning by experience

[Docb]

Yesterday was my youngest grandsons seventeenth birthday and I got invited to a lunch at (his choice) a local "American Diner"... Essentially a large kids playpark that sold food and ice cream and whatever. Loud, brash, neon signs and the like but it has a proper kitchen and a reasonable reputation for its fare. Nowt like any real American diner that I have been in. Not my scene but not my choice!

Picked a steak and cheese sandwich off the menu and shared fries and slaw and salad from baskets on the table. Finished up with an ice cream. Only drank water. No carb levels on the menu but eyeballed it and thought, no problem can cope with that. Poor call. Went back, had a cup of tea, watched son grappling with a Hebridean ram and headed for home. On way, did not feel right - head swimming a bit. Tested BG half hour later and got a 13, this being best part of three hours after starting eating. Two hours later it was down to 8 and by bed time 7. Did not have a pre eating BG but experience would have suggested a 6 or 7.

Learning points...

And the first thing is that my eyeballing must have been way off! Its normally pretty good so I started thinking about where I had been caught out. Wasn't the fries. I will have a bigger portion with my fish and very small chips tonight and can cope with that. I'm guessing that the major culprit was the "bread " used in the sandwich which I suspect was not bread as I know it but one of the sweetened concoctions which are technically more cake than bread. I also suspect that the very tasty peppery roasting juices had come from a packet rather than collected from roasting meat. I can normally cope with ice cream but maybe their ice cream was high carb.

And the second thing it was a timely reminder that my version of this thing labelled T2 diabetes is something I have on a leash and under control but slip the leash, even accidentally, and it all goes to pot. I could easily be back where I started in a couple of days just by changing what I eat.

The final point is that I know others who have got their diabetes under control or remission, or reversed, or call it what you will, would have coped with this meal quite happily. This leads me back to one of my hobby horses, and ask whether it is not time to recognise that there is more than one underlying cause for poor blood glucose control and that the world would be a better place if protocols were developed to categorise these causes and provide more focussed advice and treatment. Can't help but think that whatever is going on with me is different to, for example, what is going on with @travellor and @bulkbiker. Not trying to provoke a debate, quite the opposite. Making an observation hoping to lead to a consensus.

 

[bulkbiker]

From my perspective it shows that carbs cause T2's problems and that's why I avoid them almost completely.

In your place I'd have likely had a burger (and ditched the bun) and maybe a fry or 2 if they looked really, really good.
These days I find that kind of food fairly unappealing anyway.

Not sure how long you have been diet controlled?

I'm sure that meal would have pushed me out of ketosis.

 

[Docb]

@bulkbiker, diet controlled for the last 4 years or so. A burger might have been better I agree, especially since the "steak" in the steak sandwich would not have passed muster in a steak house and as I said, not my choice of a place to eat.

What effect would you expect that meal to have on your blood glucose levels? I'm guessing that mine must have peaked somewhere over 15, a level I have not seen in since I went the reduced carb route.

 

[bulkbiker]

@bulkbiker, diet controlled for the last 4 years or so. A burger might have been better I agree, especially since the "steak" in the steak sandwich would not have passed muster in a steak house and as I said, not my choice of a place to eat.

What effect would you expect that meal to have on your blood glucose levels? I'm guessing that mine must have peaked somewhere over 15, a level I have not seen in since I went the reduced carb route.

To be honest I"m not sure as I would never eat it.. although a few years ago I managed to "pass" an OGTT without eating any carbs beforehand and ingesting the 75g of glucose drink that the NHS uses.
My results looked like this.. a huge spike then back to baseline 2 hours later.
Does this mean that my insulin resistance has gone and that I'm cured? Not sure.
I guess I should try another sometime just to see what would happen a few years down the road.

 

[Eddy Edson]

It's worth bearing in mind that low carb => physiological adaption => temporary glucose intolerance is a real well-studied thing. Not saying that's what necessarily happened in your case, but it certainly happened with me when I was working things out in the very early days.

Go really low carb for a while, after I had basically normalised my glucose metabolism, and if I broke the low carb streak and ate a piece of rock melon I would go to 12+. If I did the same the next day, it was fine - in the 7's or whatever.

 

[Docb]

Interesting @Eddy Edson. Don't think I will go back and try the same meal again today as an experiment - the noise from the very loud and not very good PA system playing "American" music would probably push me over the edge.

 

[bulkbiker]

It's worth bearing in mind that low carb => physiological adaption => temporary glucose intolerance is a real well-studied thing.

So how does that explain my OGTT?

 

[Eddy Edson]

Interesting @Eddy Edson. Don't think I will go back and try the same meal again today as an experiment - the noise from the very loud and not very good PA system playing "American" music would probably push me over the edge.

Sounds horrendous!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Yesterday was my youngest grandsons seventeenth birthday and I got invited to a lunch at (his choice) a local "American Diner"... Essentially a large kids playpark that sold food and ice cream and whatever. Loud, brash, neon signs and the like but it has a proper kitchen and a reasonable reputation for its fare. Nowt like any real American diner that I have been in. Not my scene but not my choice!

Picked a steak and cheese sandwich off the menu and shared fries and slaw and salad from baskets on the table. Finished up with an ice cream. Only drank water. No carb levels on the menu but eyeballed it and thought, no problem can cope with that. Poor call. Went back, had a cup of tea, watched son grappling with a Hebridean ram and headed for home. On way, did not feel right - head swimming a bit. Tested BG half hour later and got a 13, this being best part of three hours after starting eating. Two hours later it was down to 8 and by bed time 7. Did not have a pre eating BG but experience would have suggested a 6 or 7.

Learning points...

And the first thing is that my eyeballing must have been way off! Its normally pretty good so I started thinking about where I had been caught out. Wasn't the fries. I will have a bigger portion with my fish and very small chips tonight and can cope with that. I'm guessing that the major culprit was the "bread " used in the sandwich which I suspect was not bread as I know it but one of the sweetened concoctions which are technically more cake than bread. I also suspect that the very tasty peppery roasting juices had come from a packet rather than collected from roasting meat. I can normally cope with ice cream but maybe their ice cream was high carb.

And the second thing it was a timely reminder that my version of this thing labelled T2 diabetes is something I have on a leash and under control but slip the leash, even accidentally, and it all goes to pot. I could easily be back where I started in a couple of days just by changing what I eat.

The final point is that I know others who have got their diabetes under control or remission, or reversed, or call it what you will, would have coped with this meal quite happily. This leads me back to one of my hobby horses, and ask whether it is not time to recognise that there is more than one underlying cause for poor blood glucose control and that the world would be a better place if protocols were developed to categorise these causes and provide more focussed advice and treatment. Can't help but think that whatever is going on with me is different to, for example, what is going on with @travellor and @bulkbiker. Not trying to provoke a debate, quite the opposite. Making an observation hoping to lead to a consensus.

The curse of the brioche bun!

I've always made a point of having a Big Mac meal wherever in the world I go to, and even I am finding the taste of the brioche is starting to put me off.
The bread has become so uniform and mundane at most places now.
But it looks like it's what appeals to people now.

 

[Docb]

So how does that explain my OGTT?

The idea I was putting forward was that it does not have to. I just get the sense that poor blood glucose control can be due to many different things operating either alone or together in different combinations. This leads to the idea that there can be a wide variety of experiences only related by the term diabetes and not necessarily related to the same underlying mechanisms.

 

[bulkbiker]

The idea I was putting forward was that it does not have to. I just get the sense that poor blood glucose control can be due to many different things operating either alone or together in different combinations. This leads to the idea that there can be a wide variety of experiences only related by the term diabetes and not necessarily related to the same underlying mechanisms.

I was really asking Eddy.. but to answer your point I agree that many things can have an impact on BG although in my view what we put into our mouths is by far the largest contributor.

 

[Leadinglights]

I can'tseethe point of a brioche bun rather than a normalone, it adds nothing.
This typing is rubbish as my spacebar is sticking, it is very erratic,tried the air blower, any suggestions from you techies.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I can'tseethe point of a brioche bun rather than a normalone, it adds nothing.
This typing is rubbish as my spacebar is sticking, it is very erratic,tried the air blower, any suggestions from you techies.

I agree, but it's better the just the burger on its own for me.
At least they aren't glazed. (yet)

 

[42istheanswer]

I'm guessing since the main difference between a brioche bun and a normal bun is butter/fat that it has become more commonly used by fast food restaurants due to the Highly Palatable Food factor (fat plus carbs). It enables them to advertise that they are using leaner beef burgers, while not reducing the fat percentage of their overall burger product as much as that would suggest (thus increasing the highly palatable effect and therefore the attraction of repeating the meal).

 

[Docb]

Yes @travellor! It wasn't what I call a bun but an oversized finger roll - the sort of thing that Subway brag about.

Did not seem big enough to give the reaction I got which led me to speculation about the "roasting juices" and ice cream. Whatever it was, I like to think about my version of T2 as being under control because it is lurking just below the surface, waiting to catch me out. Others who have dominated their version of T2 have got it well and truly licked I am sure. No wonder there is debate revolving around control, remission and reversal!

 

[nonethewiser]

American food is notoriously sweet & fat laden, could have sugar in slaw as well as roasting juices.

Thing is we all get it wrong sometimes, key is not to beat yourself up about it & learn for next time Docb, seen you post before about having meals out with family & seem to get carb balance right.

If I were type 2 & not type 1 would definitely follow same sensible route as you & likes of Eddy when it comes diet, not restrictive but not heavy handed on carbs, it's good approach to take.

 

[Docb]

Totally agree with you @nonethewiser. I won't beat myself up and great advice to anybody else caught out.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I'm guessing since the main difference between a brioche bun and a normal bun is butter/fat that it has become more commonly used by fast food restaurants due to the Highly Palatable Food factor (fat plus carbs). It enables them to advertise that they are using leaner beef burgers, while not reducing the fat percentage of their overall burger product as much as that would suggest (thus increasing the highly palatable effect and therefore the attraction of repeating the meal).

Pure sugar.
Not fat.
If I go to France, I'll eat butter croissants.
Usually with ham and cheese for breakfast.
Not margarine.
If I want bread in the UK, I want real bread, flour, no added sugar.
Brioche is just too sweet for me now.
Flour is actually very calorie heavy, but a real beefburger is worth the hit for me.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

American food is notoriously sweet & fat laden, could have sugar in slaw as well as roasting juices.

Thing is we all get it wrong sometimes, key is not to beat yourself up about it & learn for next time Docb, seen you post before about having meals out with family & seem to get carb balance right.

If I were type 2 & not type 1 would definitely follow same sensible route as you & likes of Eddy when it comes diet, not restrictive but not heavy handed on carbs, it's good approach to take.

I didn't think about the 'slaw, it could be sweetened too.

 

[Sharron1]

Yesterday was my youngest grandsons seventeenth birthday and I got invited to a lunch at (his choice) a local "American Diner"... Essentially a large kids playpark that sold food and ice cream and whatever. Loud, brash, neon signs and the like but it has a proper kitchen and a reasonable reputation for its fare. Nowt like any real American diner that I have been in. Not my scene but not my choice!

Picked a steak and cheese sandwich off the menu and shared fries and slaw and salad from baskets on the table. Finished up with an ice cream. Only drank water. No carb levels on the menu but eyeballed it and thought, no problem can cope with that. Poor call. Went back, had a cup of tea, watched son grappling with a Hebridean ram and headed for home. On way, did not feel right - head swimming a bit. Tested BG half hour later and got a 13, this being best part of three hours after starting eating. Two hours later it was down to 8 and by bed time 7. Did not have a pre eating BG but experience would have suggested a 6 or 7.

Learning points...

And the first thing is that my eyeballing must have been way off! Its normally pretty good so I started thinking about where I had been caught out. Wasn't the fries. I will have a bigger portion with my fish and very small chips tonight and can cope with that. I'm guessing that the major culprit was the "bread " used in the sandwich which I suspect was not bread as I know it but one of the sweetened concoctions which are technically more cake than bread. I also suspect that the very tasty peppery roasting juices had come from a packet rather than collected from roasting meat. I can normally cope with ice cream but maybe their ice cream was high carb.

And the second thing it was a timely reminder that my version of this thing labelled T2 diabetes is something I have on a leash and under control but slip the leash, even accidentally, and it all goes to pot. I could easily be back where I started in a couple of days just by changing what I eat.

The final point is that I know others who have got their diabetes under control or remission, or reversed, or call it what you will, would have coped with this meal quite happily. This leads me back to one of my hobby horses, and ask whether it is not time to recognise that there is more than one underlying cause for poor blood glucose control and that the world would be a better place if protocols were developed to categorise these causes and provide more focussed advice and treatment. Can't help but think that whatever is going on with me is different to, for example, what is going on with @travellor and @bulkbiker. Not trying to provoke a debate, quite the opposite. Making an observation hoping to lead to a consensus.

I always think that if i eat too much carby stuff and obviously there is an increase in sugar levels. Once in a while (and I mean once in a while( over a lifetime of diabetes it won't make too much difference to me. Am I being naive in this belief? Or is diabetes way cleverer then me?