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Looking for other Type 3C people to talk to.

Status
This thread is now closed. Please contact Anna DUK, Ieva DUK or everydayupsanddowns if you would like it re-opened.
You are most welcome; I was slightly worried that I'd overcooked the info! But I read it again and decided that after 2+ weeks you might be OK with the "indepth" approach.

Yes, I was mortified for you about being left on your own. That's why I suggested you prod the Frimley Park diabetes team.
But we'll done for coping; take an extra pat on the back! It's not easy at first and I still have days when I think *!# as well as why???

A big problem for me is that I can go well below 4 quickly, while driving. The CGM warns me, and I always have jelly babies in an easy to reach place. I'm deducing that stress from driving in busy conditions is probably the cause.

One thing I didn't say, was about my weight. I am 73kg, which is ideal for me. A bit less and I look like my late father (in his coffin) and a bit more then nothing fits! I've been very stable at that weight more-or-less since the surgery. This means I can eat anything and everything without needing to worry about putting on weight. My malabsorption is being treated by a Gastroenterologist and I'm part way through a 2 week course of unusual antibiotics; he had to get approval from somewhere before he could prescribe them. They are helping now and if that continues, then I might find my weight changes (or I have to be more prudent about what I eat). Before I was referred for the Gastro consult, I had access to a Macmillan dietician after my chemo, then a dietician from the Bucks diabetes team, then a dietician from the HPB Surgical team in Oxford. This gave me lots of extra knowledge about diet and general metabolism, but no resolution - hence the Gastro consult.

My point in mentioning this is that I find some people are wrestling with weight control and so are not only carb counting for their DM, but carb restraining for their weight control. Your body (your brain in particular) needs glucose, which it normally gets from carbs. But if the carb intake is very small then your body will convert proteins and fats into glucose; this might seem OK but it introduces a couple of distractions: the conversion rate is roughly 2 proteins for 1 carb, but that can differ for different people; and it introduces the ketone problem, a by- product of the conversion. So I avoid those distractions by always having at least 30 gm CHO with any main meal (frequently more, but it seems that 30 is sufficient to stop the protein or fat conversion) and some CHO with any snack. I know that I'm fortunate to not need to constrain my carb intake. I also love extra butter, oil or cream with any food; all 3 dieticians have said fine - my blood tests show my cholesterol is well under control.

As a matter of curiosity how frequently do you finger prick?
Hi

So I'm currently finger pricking on average 10 times a day, I'm using an app called mySugr and I record as much info as I can each day, weight, carb counts, insulin units, exercise , tablets taken etc etc, this I have found really useful in terms of cross checking previous units v 2 hrs after results, Im a bit OCD and work with data all day so I kind of love this stuff.

Weight wise, I lost 12 kilos during my initial illness which resulted in the Diabetes diagnoses however the GPs had me a T2, yet it was me that mentioned 3C as id just read a small paragraph on it in a book 'Life without Diabetes' by Roy Taylor, as they told me I had T2 and the book basically says whatever weight you are, lose 15% of your body weight and your cured, Obviously I done that with my illness and I still had Diabetes. (thought I could cure it in a week, but that was a very naive 7 months ago!!!) Happy to say Im back to previous weight of 86 kilos.

I had between 11 - 15 years ago 3 visits to the hospital with Pacreatitis yet since 11 years ago Ive never had any further problems of pains etc so thought that was the end of it, In July I had an MRI on my Pancreas and they found I small stones in it, so I had to see a consultant in October and he told me that they won't operate as I'm systematic but the consultant went on to say that I won't die of Diabetes but will die of Pancreatitis!!! I was mortified as I didn't even know I still had pancreatitis? since this statement I have been researching Pancreatitus and from what I read, I have an average life expectancy of 63....... being 53 now I have spent the past several weeks with huge anxiety.

Can I ask you a question as I don't understand why I have such a short life expectancy, If like you you've had yours removed, why wouldn't they discuss this option for me ? not having any professional support Im confused as to why nothing can be done?
 
Hi

So I'm currently finger pricking on average 10 times a day, I'm using an app called mySugr and I record as much info as I can each day, weight, carb counts, insulin units, exercise , tablets taken etc etc, this I have found really useful in terms of cross checking previous units v 2 hrs after results, Im a bit OCD and work with data all day so I kind of love this stuff.
So it sounds as if you're testing 1st thing after waking, before each meal and 2 hrs later (3x2=6), before driving out and back and immediately before sleep. Even if that isn't the exact logic, it is very good; well done. The 2 hrs after a meal isn't critical to being 120mins, but is helpful to be the same amount after each meal then you can get a good feel for whether your dosing calcs are sound (but as you are already finding the theory doesn't always match the reality, particularly if your activity levels vary from day to day).

I'm glad you've found MySugar. I used that app before I got my Libre 2 and found it very helpful. I have an Accuchek Mobile which is an integrated finger pricker and test meter, using a cassette allowing 50 tests. I phoned Roche and they provided the wifi attachment which transmits my results to MySugar. I also asked them for a second Accuchek Mobile which they happily provided once I confirmed I was testing 10x daily or more; I suspect their profit is in the test cassettes and the reader is a loss leader. Anyway I now have one upstairs and one in my travel pack; it's also a reserve should I drop it!

Regarding your end question: I'm in a strange position, because I went into the Churchill Hospital in Oxford in Feb 20 for an operation known as Whipple's Procedure to deal with my pancreatic cancer. I'd been told at the end of Nov '19 that I had 3 options: they could do nothing but make me comfortable and I might get 2 more years; I could have chemotherapy which could take 6 months and increase my life expectancy, perhaps up to 5 years, but no guarantee; or I could have the major surgery with no particular defined expectancy (yes, very vague) but (apart from the risks associated with such surgery) I was young enough and fit enough to take this surgery. I opted for surgery, even though I don't really know what my life expectancy is!

I knew there was a chance that my pancreas might be totally removed, but they generally didn't go that far and I let myself believe it couldn't happen to me. Post op the histology confirmed that the cancer was not just in the tumour blocking my bile duct but in 13 out of 32 lymph nodes removed with my pancreas. I then had precautionary "adjuvant" chemo, in case anything had been missed. By now the country was in full lockdown and face to face consults were simply not happening, so I had various phone conversations and never asked what my life expectancy is now.

So I'm not remotely in a position to provide an informed medical answer to your question! However, the stats that one can find are frequently placed into articles out of context, so I would be wary about what you have read. Also, if the stats say another 10 years they represent an average for which there is some much higher upper limit; you are obviously prepared to wrestle actively with your condition so you are doing your very best to be at that upper limit. And medical science is making huge forward leaps in its knowledge and treatment, so if you can get yourself under the right endocrinologist you will have access to the right person to ask about future prognosis, as well as getting the best assistance for managing your diabetes now.

"so I had to see a consultant in October and he told me that they won't operate as I'm systematic but the consultant went on to say that I won't die of Diabetes but will die of Pancreatitis" Really the answer to your question lies in the above sentence - if that Consultant was at the top of his game. I'm not sure that many people actually die from diabetes, rather than from other medical problems exacerbated by diabetes and its one of those other problems that gets written into the death certificate; that certainly was the case for my late brother who was profoundly ill from his T2 DM and had lost both his legs, but his death certificate states heart failure ... So perhaps your Consultant was literally correct, your future cert may well say pancreatitis, hopefully in a lot, lot more than 10 years time.

I do know that my surgery took longer than a heart transplant, was risky and wouldn't have been started if I hadn't been fit enough. So I imagine that they won't offer to remove your pancreas as a routine procedure. A friend who was a Theatre Sister in a Hepto Biliary (HPB) dep't saw many Whipples Procedures, but never a total pancreatectomy, since 10yrs ago she understood one couldn't survive for long without any pancreas. Luckily, for me, things have moved on.

I completely understand that you were mortified and now anxious about all of this. I also know that saying that is still just a platitude - it provides a moment of comfort that all too quickly disappears. I have recently been attending a "HOPE" course, sponsored by Macmillan as a follow-up for people recovering from cancer. I wanted help with "Mindfulness" in the vague aspiration that I could control my own stress levels better, knowing that stress is one of the 42 factors that affect blood glucose; the HOPE course had one mindfulness module within it, so someone thought it appropriate for me. Anyway, rather to my surprise, I've found it surprisingly therapeutic being in a room with other cancer patients, sharing our common bond, but otherwise having relatively little in common: different backgrounds, different cancers, most not cured & just holding their C at arms length week by week.

It has reinforced my view that we can only control so much: I am doing, and will do, my best to manage my DM, even if I am a bit obsessive about it; I will keep myself fit (for my age) and in a good position to take further surgery or future chemo (but I desperately hope not - I really struggled with that); I will continue to manoeuvre to get the best identifiable care for myself. But despite all of that I know that I can't control everything; next Feb I fully expect to celebrate having outlived the first option outlined by the Churchill Hospital! After that ..... week by week, month by month, year by year ? Meanwhile I appreciate what I've got.

Hope this helps, a bit. Feel free to ask other Qs. It seems to me that you are doing all that you can; remember that stress (whether medical or emotional) plays havoc with your BG and prolonged elevated BG is definitely not good for anyone, generating irreversible damage.
 
Hi @jsw (again),

I previously said:
I have seen only this week an announcement that NICE have confirmed that from now on all those entitled to Continous or Flash Glucose Monitoring will get it on the NHS - so that should end the post code lottery. I'll look for that reference on Friday
I think I've jumped the gun. I saw a twitter message from Dr Partha Kar which flashed across my screen on 3 Dec, from which I over-enthusiastically stated the above summary. Having now rummaged a little more it seems that NICE have released draft guidelines on or about 24 Nov for wider use of flash or continuous glucose monitoring. See:


So this isn't going to be instant!
 
So it sounds as if you're testing 1st thing after waking, before each meal and 2 hrs later (3x2=6), before driving out and back and immediately before sleep. Even if that isn't the exact logic, it is very good; well done. The 2 hrs after a meal isn't critical to being 120mins, but is helpful to be the same amount after each meal then you can get a good feel for whether your dosing calcs are sound (but as you are already finding the theory doesn't always match the reality, particularly if your activity levels vary from day to day).

I'm glad you've found MySugar. I used that app before I got my Libre 2 and found it very helpful. I have an Accuchek Mobile which is an integrated finger pricker and test meter, using a cassette allowing 50 tests. I phoned Roche and they provided the wifi attachment which transmits my results to MySugar. I also asked them for a second Accuchek Mobile which they happily provided once I confirmed I was testing 10x daily or more; I suspect their profit is in the test cassettes and the reader is a loss leader. Anyway I now have one upstairs and one in my travel pack; it's also a reserve should I drop it!

Regarding your end question: I'm in a strange position, because I went into the Churchill Hospital in Oxford in Feb 20 for an operation known as Whipple's Procedure to deal with my pancreatic cancer. I'd been told at the end of Nov '19 that I had 3 options: they could do nothing but make me comfortable and I might get 2 more years; I could have chemotherapy which could take 6 months and increase my life expectancy, perhaps up to 5 years, but no guarantee; or I could have the major surgery with no particular defined expectancy (yes, very vague) but (apart from the risks associated with such surgery) I was young enough and fit enough to take this surgery. I opted for surgery, even though I don't really know what my life expectancy is!

I knew there was a chance that my pancreas might be totally removed, but they generally didn't go that far and I let myself believe it couldn't happen to me. Post op the histology confirmed that the cancer was not just in the tumour blocking my bile duct but in 13 out of 32 lymph nodes removed with my pancreas. I then had precautionary "adjuvant" chemo, in case anything had been missed. By now the country was in full lockdown and face to face consults were simply not happening, so I had various phone conversations and never asked what my life expectancy is now.

So I'm not remotely in a position to provide an informed medical answer to your question! However, the stats that one can find are frequently placed into articles out of context, so I would be wary about what you have read. Also, if the stats say another 10 years they represent an average for which there is some much higher upper limit; you are obviously prepared to wrestle actively with your condition so you are doing your very best to be at that upper limit. And medical science is making huge forward leaps in its knowledge and treatment, so if you can get yourself under the right endocrinologist you will have access to the right person to ask about future prognosis, as well as getting the best assistance for managing your diabetes now.

"so I had to see a consultant in October and he told me that they won't operate as I'm systematic but the consultant went on to say that I won't die of Diabetes but will die of Pancreatitis" Really the answer to your question lies in the above sentence - if that Consultant was at the top of his game. I'm not sure that many people actually die from diabetes, rather than from other medical problems exacerbated by diabetes and its one of those other problems that gets written into the death certificate; that certainly was the case for my late brother who was profoundly ill from his T2 DM and had lost both his legs, but his death certificate states heart failure ... So perhaps your Consultant was literally correct, your future cert may well say pancreatitis, hopefully in a lot, lot more than 10 years time.

I do know that my surgery took longer than a heart transplant, was risky and wouldn't have been started if I hadn't been fit enough. So I imagine that they won't offer to remove your pancreas as a routine procedure. A friend who was a Theatre Sister in a Hepto Biliary (HPB) dep't saw many Whipples Procedures, but never a total pancreatectomy, since 10yrs ago she understood one couldn't survive for long without any pancreas. Luckily, for me, things have moved on.

I completely understand that you were mortified and now anxious about all of this. I also know that saying that is still just a platitude - it provides a moment of comfort that all too quickly disappears. I have recently been attending a "HOPE" course, sponsored by Macmillan as a follow-up for people recovering from cancer. I wanted help with "Mindfulness" in the vague aspiration that I could control my own stress levels better, knowing that stress is one of the 42 factors that affect blood glucose; the HOPE course had one mindfulness module within it, so someone thought it appropriate for me. Anyway, rather to my surprise, I've found it surprisingly therapeutic being in a room with other cancer patients, sharing our common bond, but otherwise having relatively little in common: different backgrounds, different cancers, most not cured & just holding their C at arms length week by week.

It has reinforced my view that we can only control so much: I am doing, and will do, my best to manage my DM, even if I am a bit obsessive about it; I will keep myself fit (for my age) and in a good position to take further surgery or future chemo (but I desperately hope not - I really struggled with that); I will continue to manoeuvre to get the best identifiable care for myself. But despite all of that I know that I can't control everything; next Feb I fully expect to celebrate having outlived the first option outlined by the Churchill Hospital! After that ..... week by week, month by month, year by year ? Meanwhile I appreciate what I've got.

Hope this helps, a bit. Feel free to ask other Qs. It seems to me that you are doing all that you can; remember that stress (whether medical or emotional) plays havoc with your BG and prolonged elevated BG is definitely not good for anyone, generating irreversible damage.
Hi
I think you made the right choice with the operation, option 1 and 2 didn't seem appropriate for your drive. Im really pleased to see that your getting to 2 years in Feb, I was reading on a forum recently (and I think it was on the other diabetes website the .co.uk one) and it was a gentlemen who had a total removal of his pancreas in his early 50's and he was now in his early 70's so there seems to be no limits if your doing all the right daily processes, which I can tell you are so option 3 was right for you.
Thanks for the feed back on my question, and I am taking your point from this message and previous that you really need to find the right person/s within the NHS to get the support we all need, I got a letter today from the consultant I was due to see in early Feb and he's can my appointment, so waiting for a new appointment which I hope will be soon. When I see him I will be asking for help with more specific teams, as you'd mentioned at the Royal Surrey Guildford, and of course the Libre 2 system which I know will be of great benefit.
In terms of the Mindfulness, I did recently have a couple of phone meetings with I guess a 'shrink' to discuss my anxiety levels and that helped (through my employer not offered to me on NHS) and I liked the method of grounding and thinking of the 'here and now' and not focusing on the future which we can't control (well not 100%) this has helped me and my anxiety has reduced from this, also I have recently (past 2 weeks) discovered Yoga, which I've never done before and its been amazing, nothing to do with Diabetes but my hips and shoulders are not in tip top condition (to much sport) so I'm not very flexible but its getting better each visit.
 
Hi @jsw (again),

I previously said:
I have seen only this week an announcement that NICE have confirmed that from now on all those entitled to Continous or Flash Glucose Monitoring will get it on the NHS - so that should end the post code lottery. I'll look for that reference on Friday
I think I've jumped the gun. I saw a twitter message from Dr Partha Kar which flashed across my screen on 3 Dec, from which I over-enthusiastically stated the above summary. Having now rummaged a little more it seems that NICE have released draft guidelines on or about 24 Nov for wider use of flash or continuous glucose monitoring. See:


So this isn't going to be instant!
Hello

yes I saw that on the website yesterday so Im getting closer and I think I will get one once I see the consultant and do the DAFNE course, till then I won't give up on my 10 pricks a day!!
 
Hello

yes I saw that on the website yesterday so Im getting closer and I think I will get one once I see the consultant and do the DAFNE course, till then I won't give up on my 10 pricks a day!!
Great. Test, test, test is essential if you want to deduce anything.

Don't forget that in the meantime you can do Bertie on line for carb counting. It shouldn't jeopardise your eligibility for a DAFNE course in the New Year.

In view of your delayed Consult, I do think you could do a lot worse than by reaching out to the Diabetes team at Frimley Park and get yourself under the umbrella of a DSN. Apart from getting routine guidance, they could become a good advocate to your Consultant for you being put on the short list of Libre 2 candidates.

Now knowing you use MySugar I think specialists can look at your MySugar results and provide further analysis of your results; I understand from a phone and email dialogue with the support team at Diasend (or Glooko, who own Diasend) they are a carrier of MySugar and that they have unique identification codes for most or all Hospital spec diabetes teams & GP practices allowing data sharing. It's a one-way share, you give permission & they look at your output. You will do the same thing when you have Libre 2, whereby spec teams can log onto your LibreView data (confusingly using different identifying codes) and that is one of the mandatory requirements from the NHS before they authorise Libre 2 to individuals.
 
Great. Test, test, test is essential if you want to deduce anything.

Don't forget that in the meantime you can do Bertie on line for carb counting. It shouldn't jeopardise your eligibility for a DAFNE course in the New Year.

In view of your delayed Consult, I do think you could do a lot worse than by reaching out to the Diabetes team at Frimley Park and get yourself under the umbrella of a DSN. Apart from getting routine guidance, they could become a good advocate to your Consultant for you being put on the short list of Libre 2 candidates.

Now knowing you use MySugar I think specialists can look at your MySugar results and provide further analysis of your results; I understand from a phone and email dialogue with the support team at Diasend (or Glooko, who own Diasend) they are a carrier of MySugar and that they have unique identification codes for most or all Hospital spec diabetes teams & GP practices allowing data sharing. It's a one-way share, you give permission & they look at your output. You will do the same thing when you have Libre 2, whereby spec teams can log onto your LibreView data (confusingly using different identifying codes) and that is one of the mandatory requirements from the NHS before they authorise Libre 2 to individuals.
Yes I think your right, I should try to contact the Frimley Team and seek a meeting. Do you know if I have to go through my GP or DN as I don't hold out much hope with them being of any help. Not sure If I can just phone Frimley and ask to talk to DSN without a invite letter etc? I will try this week and see how I get on. Thanks for the Tip!

I was hoping the DAFNE course would advise on the mySugr data and eventually the ratio as I still couldn't work out from the data I have gained exactly what ration to insulin I am, it does seem to change somewhat from week to week, day to day, AM to PM LOL.
 
@jsw , I didn't need a referral for Bertie online. If one is needed for DAFNE then connecting in with Frimley DSN can only help. I believe a DSN will be able to get some degree of interpretation from MySugar, almost certainly more than yourself at this stage in your DM career!

A cold call to Frimley D team explaining that you are very adrift will help you make a start. If your GP would consolidate that with a referral, because you are T3c and need unique assistance, then that can only help.

Don't be too surprised if your BG is erratic. There is a lot to grapple with at this very early stage, beyond the mechanics of insulin ratios, timings and carb counting, particularly if your pancreatitis is confusing any normal pancreatic functions. Have you come across the 42 factors that can affect BG? I found a copy on the diatribe.org site, from an article by Adam Brown in Oct 2020. Until you've got a CGM it's very difficult to really see what's happening; finger pricks give you a momentary snapshot. CGM gives you the opportunity to identify your status: static, rising or falling and then the ability to respond accordingly - I regularly head off hypos thanks to Diabox by snacking when needed or increasing my activity when high. I also take corrective bolus if I can't bring my BG down; but I never stack insulin, ie take a correction within 5 hrs of my last bolus. I feel safe in doing that because my Diabox alarms warn me. I still get the odd hypo, but frequently it doesn't last long enough to cause difficulty. When my basal was wrong, my reactive responses were far worse.

When things feel really tough, take some comfort from knowing that you are not alone, nor the first to feel horrifyingly isolated. And CGM was not an option for anyone until recently, but people survived!
 
@jsw , I didn't need a referral for Bertie online. If one is needed for DAFNE then connecting in with Frimley DSN can only help. I believe a DSN will be able to get some degree of interpretation from MySugar, almost certainly more than yourself at this stage in your DM career!

A cold call to Frimley D team explaining that you are very adrift will help you make a start. If your GP would consolidate that with a referral, because you are T3c and need unique assistance, then that can only help.

Don't be too surprised if your BG is erratic. There is a lot to grapple with at this very early stage, beyond the mechanics of insulin ratios, timings and carb counting, particularly if your pancreatitis is confusing any normal pancreatic functions. Have you come across the 42 factors that can affect BG? I found a copy on the diatribe.org site, from an article by Adam Brown in Oct 2020. Until you've got a CGM it's very difficult to really see what's happening; finger pricks give you a momentary snapshot. CGM gives you the opportunity to identify your status: static, rising or falling and then the ability to respond accordingly - I regularly head off hypos thanks to Diabox by snacking when needed or increasing my activity when high. I also take corrective bolus if I can't bring my BG down; but I never stack insulin, ie take a correction within 5 hrs of my last bolus. I feel safe in doing that because my Diabox alarms warn me. I still get the odd hypo, but frequently it doesn't last long enough to cause difficulty. When my basal was wrong, my reactive responses were far worse.

When things feel really tough, take some comfort from knowing that you are not alone, nor the first to feel horrifyingly isolated. And CGM was not an option for anyone until recently, but people survived!

No, not heard of the 42 factors but will do some research on this, Ive not been given any information about CGM, pumps, Libre 2, etc, I only got from the comments from GP and DN, 'Oh you won't get one of those!'.
My daughter asked me the other day, why I don't inject insulin after the meal, she's is a school teacher and all her children (-10yrs) that are diabetic take insulin after food.. Its a question I have for my Dafne teacher when I get on it.
Seems to be a better idea when you're in a restaurant or hotel etc. Any thoughts?
 
My daughter asked me the other day, why I don't inject insulin after the meal, she's is a school teacher and all her children (-10yrs) that are diabetic take insulin after food.. Its a question I have for my Dafne teacher when I get on it.
Seems to be a better idea when you're in a restaurant or hotel etc. Any thoughts?
Problem with insulin is, once you've put it in, you can’t take it out! So if you’re a child, and the teacher isn’t sure whether you’re going to eat all your school lunch or not, it makes sense to give the insulin after the meal, when you know exactly what’s been consumed. This can be a good idea when eating out as well, when you don’t quite know what will be on the plate, nor how long it’s going to take to arrive.
Problem with giving insulin after the meal is that it takes a while to get going, meanwhile, all the carbs you’ve just eaten are busy getting fed into the system by your digestion, and they can get a head start, spiking your blood sugars upwards until the insulin has a chance to catch up and deal with them. High spikes aren’t good for the body, so if you can avoid them by injecting beforehand, you'll get better overall control.
Sometimes a compromise can be, if you don’t know exactly what you’ll be eating, take part of the bolus up front, for the amount of carb that you’re certain you’re going to eat, and then top up afterwards if you’ve eaten more. Or calculate and inject the insulin for the first course when it arrives, then calculate the pudding separately if you decide to have one, and inject when it arrives. It means more injections, but I never really find that a problem, I’m so used to jabbing insulin in, it’s just second nature.
 
No, not heard of the 42 factors but will do some research on this, Ive not been given any information about CGM, pumps, Libre 2, etc, I only got from the comments from GP and DN, 'Oh you won't get one of those!'.
My daughter asked me the other day, why I don't inject insulin after the meal, she's is a school teacher and all her children (-10yrs) that are diabetic take insulin after food.. Its a question I have for my Dafne teacher when I get on it.
Seems to be a better idea when you're in a restaurant or hotel etc. Any thoughts?
Thoughts - certainly.
Normally people on MDI pre-bolus, ie take our mealtime insulin before eating. How long before depends on the time of day and the individual. I generally need 45+ mins before breakfast, 30 mins before lunch and 15 mins before dinner, for NovoRapid. I now make use those of time gaps within my daily routines. For example before I go to bed I have a quick check of what I shall be having for breakfast and know when I wake up that I'm having a 13 (or whatever) unit bolus for breakfast food. I add corrections or factor down for anticipated activity, then bolus, get dressed, prep my breakfast, set up the coffee machine, etc and after 45 mins I'm usually seeing the downward trend that I want and start eating. CGM makes this really slick; but even the less sophisticated flash glucose monitoring (by reading my Libre 2 sensor with my reader or phone) is straightforward. Doing this by finger pricking is tough, bordering on unrealistic.

We all have a certain amount of insulin resistance; T2s have this in spades. That resistance means it takes a while for the insulin to take effect before the carbs arrive; the insulin has to break down from its natural hexamer molecular clusters and dissolve before getting out of body cells and into the bloodstream. Also the glycaemic index of the carbs plays a large part in the timing for the carbs / insulin mechanics.

Timing is a key factor in the carbs insulin dosing equation. For me, and I think many others, not only is the body's insulin resistance variable for time of day but my insulin resistance increases when I'm already high; so if I pre-bolus with my BG at 12.0, my dose will include a food component, a correction, possibly an activity percentage and I will not eat anything until my BG has fallen to comfortably below 10 and Libre 2 (or my Diabox CGM) is showing a downward trend. Only today, before lunch, I had to wait 75 mins after my bolus and before I started eating; this can be very frustrating. My CGM was showing a gentle drop every 5 mins, then a rally and rise (!), then gentle drop, with another rally and rise until eventually I was clearly dropping and at 8.5. At home this is achievable (but is a source of friction for my wife - I understand why!). If I eat while 10 or above my BG might drop slightly but then rally and I end up high until my next meal or correction bolus.

Sometimes, for me very rarely unless I'm already quite low, I might bolus immediately before a meal: once I've seen what it comprises and the portion size, then hasty carb count; eg in a hotel. But I try very hard to get a preview of any forthcoming menu, do a carb count or "guestimate" and pre-bolus. Any post meal bolus for me is solely as a correction, at least 5 hrs after any previous bolus to avoid what is known as "stacking" (insulin on top of active insulin); I would rather eat very sparingly (be hungry?) than risk bolus doses compounding and catching me out. But, my DM is extremely brittle and I will be cautious rather than too bold.

I can't explain why it's different for school children, perhaps their natural insulin resistance is lower. Perhaps insulin dispersal is markedly quicker in children's metabolic processes. Is it different for all children? Children have a priority from the NICE guidelines for pump eligibility, but that's a digression. Maybe your teacher daughter can ask some of her pupils about this? They can be deceptively savvy about their condition.
 
Problem with insulin is, once you've put it in, you can’t take it out! So if you’re a child, and the teacher isn’t sure whether you’re going to eat all your school lunch or not, it makes sense to give the insulin after the meal, when you know exactly what’s been consumed. This can be a good idea when eating out as well, when you don’t quite know what will be on the plate, nor how long it’s going to take to arrive.
Problem with giving insulin after the meal is that it takes a while to get going, meanwhile, all the carbs you’ve just eaten are busy getting fed into the system by your digestion, and they can get a head start, spiking your blood sugars upwards until the insulin has a chance to catch up and deal with them. High spikes aren’t good for the body, so if you can avoid them by injecting beforehand, you'll get better overall control.
Sometimes a compromise can be, if you don’t know exactly what you’ll be eating, take part of the bolus up front, for the amount of carb that you’re certain you’re going to eat, and then top up afterwards if you’ve eaten more. Or calculate and inject the insulin for the first course when it arrives, then calculate the pudding separately if you decide to have one, and inject when it arrives. It means more injections, but I never really find that a problem, I’m so used to jabbing insulin in, it’s just second nature.
Thanks for clarifying @Robin .

Seems to me to be particularly bad for children to post bolus, setting them on course at a very young age for extra time out of range and high, leading to hyperglycaemic long term problems. But maybe it's Hobson's choice in the school environment.

Are you using Libre?
 
Thanks for clarifying @Robin .

Seems to me to be particularly bad for children to post bolus, setting them on course at a very young age for extra time out of range and high, leading to hyperglycaemic long term problems. But maybe it's Hobson's choice in the school environment.

Are you using Libre?
I think our management will always be a compromise over what would be ideal and what is practical.
I do use a Libre, I started off self funding it, and I had to push and then keep nagging to get it on prescription. Its been a complete game changer. Like you, I prebolus for breakfast at least 45 minutes before I eat, because my Blood Glucose starts rising the minute I wake up, as my liver starts releasing glucose to gear up for the day. It takes 45 minutes for the insulin to kick in sufficiently to counteract the speed of the rise, and as soon as I see it turn the corner and start to drop, I eat. At other meals, I bolus abut 10 minutes before I eat, but will have been keeping an eye on my levels, so if I felt I was heading upwards, I’d bolus sooner.
I also have the advantage of being the cook in our house, so if my levels are high, I can skip the carby elements of what I'm serving. It would seem from what you’ve said, though, that generally my blood sugar is less ‘brittle' than yours. I think it helps me that although I don’t overly restrict my carbs, I don’t tend to eat massively carb-heavy meals. And if I've got to go out first thing, I will have something like scrambled egg, or an avocado for breakfast, so that I don’t get a carb spike before the insulin is working.
 
@Proud to be erratic It is really interesting to read your account because my diabetes management is very similar to both @Robin's and yourself, but like Robin I reduce my carb intake to help keep things more stable and prevent high peaks and drops. Again 45mins prebolus at breakfast with Fiasp but it was over an hour with NR. I jab before I get out of bed and then have a routine to take up the time and watch for the Libre to tell me levels are starting to drop and have breakfast ready to eat for when Libre shows the insulin is working. I am not so sure it is insulin resistance which caused this delay, but the fact that the insulin is having to work against a strong tide of glucose release from the liver. I inject an extra 1.5-2 units every morning to deal with that (Foot on the Floor syndrome) on top of the breakfast bolus. If I am skipping breakfast, I still need those 2 units, so I don't consider it part of my breakfast ratio. At other times of day it is usually 20 mins prebolus time but the other night I had to wait 2 hours for 5.5 units of Fiasp to bring me down from 9.2 to 6.5 before I could eat a bowl of soup that was just 20g carbs. No idea why I was getting such a glucose dump then, but very frustrating and like you, it is not worth the aggravation of eating when my levels are above 8 if I can help it at all.
Unlike you, I have no problem stacking insulin if I can see my levels not responding within the time scale they should and that 5.5 was actually a 3.5 and a 2 stacked, because at the 1 hr point my levels had gone up to 9.7 instead of down. Because I eat relatively low carb usually about 70g a day I can be reasonably confident of using small doses and not getting it too wrong and Libre makes all the difference in the world to my confidence in using extra bolus insulin when it is clear I need to, even if it is only an hour or 2 after a previous injection.

I am not advocating this for others as stacking can be very dangerous but for me, not being afraid to stack when Libre shows me that my levels are going in the wrong direction (and I would like to eat that evening) enables me to maintain better control and I very seldom go low in such situations and if I do it is minor because only small doses involved.

@jsw Many of us self funded Libre before we got it prescribed. It is a wonderful bit of kit when you understand how to use it and it's limitations. Worth putting on your Christmas present list. 😉 I used birthday money initially for mine and could not have been bought a better present/gift/toy!
 
Hi all,

I'm newly diagnosed and new to the forums so please forgive any decorum related issues. Just been diagnosed after my HbA1c numbers more than doubled between pre-op assessments for surgery on something else. Seem the pancreas that got badly damaged by a pseudocyst after gallstones invaded (and were fished out by MRCP(?)) some 6 years ago is finally beginning to give up the ghost. Had levels of 18.1 which have reduced since I switched diets and went low carb and removed processed food, so they've put me on 8 units of 'background' insulin a day.

Any idea what the general process is from here in the NHS for getting further checks done etc as the GP has just handed me over to the local hospital team about 2 weeks ago? Like @jsw most of the info I'm gleaming is from the internet as I was just given the background insulin and have had 1 follow up call from the nursing team.

Cheers,
Olaf
 
I think our management will always be a compromise over what would be ideal and what is practical.
I do use a Libre, I started off self funding it, and I had to push and then keep nagging to get it on prescription. Its been a complete game changer. Like you, I prebolus for breakfast at least 45 minutes before I eat, because my Blood Glucose starts rising the minute I wake up, as my liver starts releasing glucose to gear up for the day. It takes 45 minutes for the insulin to kick in sufficiently to counteract the speed of the rise, and as soon as I see it turn the corner and start to drop, I eat. At other meals, I bolus abut 10 minutes before I eat, but will have been keeping an eye on my levels, so if I felt I was heading upwards, I’d bolus sooner.
I also have the advantage of being the cook in our house, so if my levels are high, I can skip the carby elements of what I'm serving. It would seem from what you’ve said, though, that generally my blood sugar is less ‘brittle' than yours. I think it helps me that although I don’t overly restrict my carbs, I don’t tend to eat massively carb-heavy meals. And if I've got to go out first thing, I will have something like scrambled egg, or an avocado for breakfast, so that I don’t get a carb spike before the insulin is working.
Thank you @Robin and apologies for my delayed acknowledgement. I've noted your strategy for a low carb b'fast if you have to go out; that make a lot of sense (hindsight is a wonderful thing). In my early days I tried very hard to be moderately consistent, ie reduce those variables where I can reduce them; hence my standard but varied cereal, milk and fruit breakfast. I've just woken up to the obvious: I don't have to be so rigid now that I have Libre2 and CGM.
 
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