Half-fat butter

[mikeyB]

Ah, the Inuit comparison?
If I chased a Norwhal for breakfast, I probably be a different man too.
Then again, if they bought it shrink-wrapped from Tesco, I suspect they would be as well.
(And they do actually have different genes, so I'm afraid, to totally blow that out of the water, https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/16012 )

We all have the same genes, because we can we can easily interbreed. The genes under discussion exist in us too, but aren’t active. That’s epigenetics. That’s why a Corgi doesn’t look like a wolf, but they could interbreed.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

We all have the same genes, because we can we can easily interbreed. The genes under discussion exist in us too, but aren’t active. That’s epigenetics. That’s why a Corgi doesn’t look like a wolf, but they could interbreed.

"aren't active" ?
So you agree there is a fundamental difference in the active Inuit physiology, and the old "but the Inuits......." cry really makes no sense, now it's so out of date with modern research.
However, that's academic, as the study clearly shows genetic differentiation.
That's not epigenetics.
(and you are possibly referring to "common genes" not "all have the same" genes for interbreeding in a compatible group)

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

I confess I do get a little lost in genes, gene expression, recessive or dominant, genetic predisposition vs environmental triggers etc.

But it does seem perfectly possible to have genes, or a genetic predisposition, but one which lies dormant, so to speak.

But then there are some populations which lack, or never developed the ability to process things like alcohol (eg far eastern populations who worked out the boiling water thing to sanitise water, rather than the european method of brewing it into alcohol). Which I believed was genetic?

I can hear QI klaxons firing right, left and centre! 😱

 

[NotPink]

So you are saying no one in any medical profession has ever said a high fat diet raises cholesterol?
Really?
No one?
Just me?

Look at the mechanics of the Keto diet which focuses on high fat and low or no carbs.

 

[mikeyB]

I confess I do get a little lost in genes, gene expression, recessive or dominant, genetic predisposition vs environmental triggers etc.

But it does seem perfectly possible to have genes, or a genetic predisposition, but one which lies dormant, so to speak.

But then there are some populations which lack, or never developed the ability to process things like alcohol (eg far eastern populations who worked out the boiling water thing to sanitise water, rather than the european method of brewing it into alcohol). Which I believed was genetic?

I can hear QI klaxons firing right, left and centre! 😱

I don't know about far eastern populations being unable to process alcohol. Japan is one of the biggest markets for Scotch whisky, and now they make some superb single malts.

And in the UK, beer was used by workers to relieve their thirst because the water is boiled in the brewing process. The product was "small" beer. about the same alcohol content as a shandy. So we did know that boiling water made it safe to drink, it just doesn't feel like it quenches thirst because all the dissolved air is boiled out. Try drinking distilled water - it's horrible. Nowt to do with genes, I'm afraid.

That noise of the QI klaxons is real, I'm afraid🙂

 

[nonethewiser]

Published in 1994 there was a comparison of Simvastatin and a diet which reduced Omega 6 in people who had suffered a myocardial infarction. The Lyon diet heart study found that it achieved a 70 percent reduction in risk during the 4 years of the study. A similar study in Scandinavia, where Simvastatin was prescribed, found that the risk reduction was only 30 percent.
There are articles available from reputable sources, the Lancet, the BMJ - and I can't find contradictory evidence, and I do look.
I do find that some research is suddenly halted because it is not getting the right results - so funding is withdrawn. Rubbish eh?

Omega 3 6 9 are all important for good health, you need to accept fact https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to-avoid-healthy-omega-6-fats

 

[Drummer]

Omega 3 6 9 are all important for good health, you need to except fact https://www.health.harvard.edu/newsletter_article/no-need-to-avoid-healthy-omega-6-fats

Well - a second heart attack is nothing to ridicule.
Personally - if I had a heart attack, I'd go for the 70 percent risk reduction option.

 

[nonethewiser]

Well - a second heart attack is nothing to ridicule.
Personally - if I had a heart attack, I'd go for the 70 percent risk reduction option.

,
Well who cares what you'd do, fact is fact & Omega 6 does not need to be avoided & forms parts of healthy diet, it poses no risk to life as you said earlier in thread, that is scaremongering plain & simple.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

A reminder to all members to retain a respectful tone towards others, even if views and opinions differ.

Come on folks - we are here to support each other.

 

[Maca44]

Never thought people would argue over Butter, it's a slippery slope 😉 😉

 

[Drummer]

,
Well who cares what you'd do, fact is fact & Omega 6 does not need to be avoided & forms parts of healthy diet, it poses no risk to life as you said earlier in thread, that is scaremongering plain & simple.

It was found by comparing the results from a couple of proper medically organised and supervised pair of investigations and reported in accredited medical journals, the Lancet published the Lyon diet results and the BMJ did the comparison.
If you feel so strongly that their information is wrong then you ought to inform them - I am sure that they will give it all the attention such claims deserve.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It was found by comparing the results from a couple of proper medically organised and supervised pair of investigations and reported in accredited medical journals, the Lancet published the Lyon diet results and the BMJ did the comparison.
If you feel so strongly that their information is wrong then you ought to inform them - I am sure that they will give it all the attention such claims deserve.

They have.
1994 came and went.
New studies from this decade seems to have completely and utterly moved on from there.
You can't stop reading new studies just because they disagree with you.
I believe "Hogwash" is the technical term for that sort of misinformation, from the AHA, from the studies from 15 years later.

"The critics argue that we should cut back on our intake of omega-6 fats to improve the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6s. Hogwash, says the American Heart Association (AHA). In a science advisory that was two years in the making, nine independent researchers from around the country, including three from Harvard, say that data from dozens of studies support the cardiovascular benefits of eating omega-6 fats"

 

[Drummer]

They have.
1994 came and went.
New studies from this decade seems to have completely and utterly moved on from there.
You can't stop reading new studies just because they disagree with you.
I believe "Hogwash" is the technical term for that sort of misinformation, from the AHA, from the studies from 15 years later.

"The critics argue that we should cut back on our intake of omega-6 fats to improve the ratio of omega-3 to omega-6s. Hogwash, says the American Heart Association (AHA). In a science advisory that was two years in the making, nine independent researchers from around the country, including three from Harvard, say that data from dozens of studies support the cardiovascular benefits of eating omega-6 fats"

Do they explain the disparity in the results of the Lyon diet study and the Simvastatin treatment report or give any reason for it?
Call me suspicious, but in studies of heart heath the citizens of the USA do not seem to be in the higher levels.

 

[nonethewiser]

If you feel so strongly that their information is wrong then you ought to inform them - I am sure that they will give it all the attention such claims deserve.

Need to move with times & get up to date with latest science Drummer, no good having head stuck in past believing outdated studies that have been proven wrong.

All along my point is you were wrong to suggest cutting out Onega 6 could save lives, totally inaccurate for anyone reading thread & surprised admin here didn't correct post.

 

[helli]

Never thought people would argue over Butter, it's a slippery slope 😉 😉

That reminds me of an obstacle at the end of "race" I participated in.
A few years ago, I took part in a Rat Race - this was an urban adventure race which involved cycling and running around a city, abseiling down the exit ramp of a multi-storey car park, kayaking over a weir, climbing over buildings ... and trying to get three team members up a 45 degree slope greased in butter/margarine/some such equivalent.
This is me trying to help a team mate up the final part. He was standing on the shoulders of the third team mate for whom the climb was much harder. And the photo is taken at an angle as can be seen by the buildings behind.

 

[ianf0ster]

So you are saying no one in any medical profession has ever said a high fat diet raises cholesterol?
Really?
No one?
Just me?

Plenty have said it, but whether it is an actual fact is up for debate since there are obviously some who appear to have experiences which cast doubt on that.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Plenty have said it, but whether it is an actual fact is up for debate since there are obviously some who appear to have experiences which cast doubt on that.

It depends where you set the general population statistically.
Is it a fact if it's true for 95 percent of us, and 5 percent fall outside?
Is it a fact if 95 percent of us believe the world is round, and 5 percent believe it's flat? Some still do.

Back to the good old genes issue.
If we were all identical, we'd be clones, and indeed we would all react similarly.
But we're not, we have differences.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

All along my point is you were wrong to suggest cutting out Onega 6 could save lives, totally inaccurate for anyone reading thread & surprised admin here didn't correct post.

Like @Robin - my understanding was that it was important that Omega 6 and 3 were in balance, and that in general the Western diet tends to have quite a lot of 6, and needs more 3.

This is a bit dense (or at least it made me feel dense trying to quickly read it), but certain phrases seemed to tie in with my understanding:

Health Implications of High Dietary Omega-6 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids - PMC

Omega-6 (n-6) polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (e.g., arachidonic acid (AA)) and omega-3 (n-3) PUFA (e.g., eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)) are precursors to potent lipid mediator signalling molecules, termed “eicosanoids,” which have important roles ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The suggestion that Omega 6 is pro-inflammatory (while Omega 3 is anti-inflammatory) crops up quite a bit in a quick internet search of things like Pubmed.

Omega-6 fatty acids and inflammation - PubMed

Inflammation is a normal process that is part of host defence and tissue healing. However, excessive or unresolved inflammation can lead to uncontrolled tissue damage, pathology and disease. In humans on a Western diet, the omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid arachidonic acid (ARA) makes a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But “Thus, the interaction of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and their lipid mediators in the context of inflammation is complex and still not properly understood.”

More research is needed etc etc.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Like @Robin - my understanding was that it was important that Omega 6 and 3 were in balance, and that in general the Western diet tends to have quite a lot of 6, and needs more 3.

This is a bit dense (or at least it made me feel dense trying to quickly read it), but certain phrases seemed to tie in with my understanding:

Health Implications of High Dietary Omega-6 Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids - PMC

Omega-6 (n-6) polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFA) (e.g., arachidonic acid (AA)) and omega-3 (n-3) PUFA (e.g., eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA)) are precursors to potent lipid mediator signalling molecules, termed “eicosanoids,” which have important roles ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The suggestion that Omega 6 is pro-inflammatory (while Omega 3 is anti-inflammatory) crops up quite a bit in a quick internet search of things like Pubmed.

Omega-6 fatty acids and inflammation - PubMed

Inflammation is a normal process that is part of host defence and tissue healing. However, excessive or unresolved inflammation can lead to uncontrolled tissue damage, pathology and disease. In humans on a Western diet, the omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acid arachidonic acid (ARA) makes a...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But “Thus, the interaction of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids and their lipid mediators in the context of inflammation is complex and still not properly understood.”

More research is needed etc etc.

Again though, that is a nine year old study, and thinking has changed in the last half of the 2010's.
Overall though, the view hasn't changed that at least omega 6 is, and always has been seen as less damaging than saturated fats.
It is a mine field though, as you say, more research is needed, and is being done.
By the end of 2030, things no doubt will have changed again.
Until then, and then after, we'll still be discussing it I'm sure.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Again though, that is a nine year old study, and thinking has changed in the last half of the 2010's.

Have you got a source?

The second article is 2018, and kinda suggests there’s a lot still unknown / unclear?

It’s not my area at all, and I’ve no vested interest in either side (so a ‘balance’ viewpoint naturally appeals). Would be interested to read some of the better ‘6 isn’t inflammatory after all’ studies if you have a link 🙂