Does low carbing cause Insulin resistance?

[nonethewiser]

Spent just 3 months following LCD diet, basal didn't go up in so unsure about insulin resistance, will add thou that bolus doses & amount of times to inject it went lot higher considering only eating 1/4 of carbs I eat now, so that was main reason why it got big heave ho, that & dont like limiting foods as enjoy food to much.

Even now have to bolus for extra protein in meals, mentioned this last week on forum when someone asked about difference between eating 1 or 2 chicken breasts in meal where carbs are included.

Nowt is straight forward with type 1 is it.

 

[PattiEvans]

I like the sound of your menu. It is my week to cook so I am feeling inspired.

We didn’t change much, as we cooked from scratch, but with the Libre we just dropped the portions and did a few swaps for spikes foods.

Yes, a few swaps will help. Tonight it's sausages with a mash made from half potato and half cauliflower, which lowers the carb but still gives a satisfying mash. I'm using the sauce from last night, let down into a gravy and serving some green beans.

 

[PattiEvans]

Spent just 3 months following LCD diet, basal didn't go up in so unsure about insulin resistance, will add thou that bolus doses & amount of times to inject it went lot higher considering only eating 1/4 of carbs I eat now, so that was main reason why it got big heave ho, that & dont like limiting foods as enjoy food to much.

Even now have to bolus for extra protein in meals, mentioned this last week on forum when someone asked about difference between eating 1 or 2 chicken breasts in meal where carbs are included.

Nowt is straight forward with type 1 is it.

Could the bolus going up be as a result of the physiological insulin resistance discussed earlier in this thread?

It never is straightforward! LOL! I had half a spanish omelette at lunchtime using up leftover cooked new potatoes, some chorizo, half an onion and some cheddar. The carb content was less than 20g but I bolussed for 25g to cover some for the protein. BG has been more or less level all afternoon, despite running round doing supermarket shop in 2 different supermarkets.

 

[Robin]

I think there is confusion between insulin resistance and an overactive liver first thing in the morning. Whatever I have for breakfast, I need 2 units extra novorapid to cope with my liver waking up and swinging into action. Some people might say that they need extra bolus because they’re insulin resistant, but I don’t need an increased ratio, I just need two extra units. So if I have eggs, I just take the 2 units, but because I will therefore process some protein into glucose in the absence of carbs, I will need a unit at around 11am. So, I could look at my rising levels, and think, I need more basal in the morning, I must be insulin resistant, but no, I don’t need extra basal. If I have a small bowl of muesli, carb value 30g, and bolus 3 units, plus the extra 2, I will be nicely in range all morning.

 

[rebrascora]

@Robin I find it amazing how similar our systems work. That is exactly my experience with breakfast.

 

[TinaD]

Prof Roy Taylor (Newcastle Uni) according to his recent book takes the view that Type 2 simply means you are too fat for your particular metabolism. He has no objection to any form of diet (low carb/keto/low fat) as long as you eat real food not processed stuff, avoid dodgy oils, and slim down enough to get the fat out of your pancreas. If you are a TOFI (thin outside fat inside) the dropping 10lbs may be enough to reverse your Type 2 as long as you maintain the loss. The advantage of keto, it seems to me, is that it gets your BG down quickly whilst you are waiting for the weight to come off and that it does prevent you feeling quite as hungry as other diets.

 

[AndBreathe]

I think it's worth differentiating between pathological and physiological insulin resistance.

 

[PattiEvans]

I think it's worth differentiating between pathological and physiological insulin resistance.

I see where you are coming from there. Surely physiological insulin resistance only kicks in when the body enters ketosis for a period of time.

 

[rebrascora]

Prof Roy Taylor (Newcastle Uni) according to his recent book takes the view that Type 2 simply means you are too fat for your particular metabolism. He has no objection to any form of diet (low carb/keto/low fat) as long as you eat real food not processed stuff, avoid dodgy oils, and slim down enough to get the fat out of your pancreas. If you are a TOFI (thin outside fat inside) the dropping 10lbs may be enough to reverse your Type 2 as long as you maintain the loss. The advantage of keto, it seems to me, is that it gets your BG down quickly whilst you are waiting for the weight to come off and that it does prevent you feeling quite as hungry as other diets.

I find that quite surprising considering the original study used meal replacement shakes which are clearly not REAL FOOD. I guess it was a trade off of to ensure that the 800 cals could easily be quantified for people taking part in the study.

 

[TinaD]

I find that quite surprising considering the original study used meal replacement shakes which are clearly not REAL FOOD. I guess it was a trade off of to ensure that the 800 cals could easily be quantified for people taking part in the study.

Yes, I was quite surprised too.
It was,in the original study apparently, a diet of shakes and green leafy veggies. The objective was not only to demonstrate that fat loss would solve the problem but to do so at speed and, I believe, in a manner which would allow for ease of monitoring.
The study did achieve very fast weight loss but a) not all people could tolerate such a diet (yuk from me), b) he accepts that slower weight loss should achieve the same end result c) it is the end result and the maintainance of weight loss rather than the mechanism which he seems to regard as important.
I have to say doing 800 cals and 20gms or less of carbs on real food is a b****rd of a job and in my experience needs supplements of minerals and vitamins which are much less likely to be needed on a slightly higher calorie intake. So, I suspect, it comes down to how fast you want to shed the fat.
May I say, smugly, that my recent abdominal scan showed a very healthy liver which suggests my pancreas is also fat cleared? According to the Prof the pancreas can recover over time - I await personal proof of this as my FBG and post-prandial figures hop up depressingly still if I cheat to the extent of indulging in an apple or 150gms of strawberries + 100gms of Greek yoghurt. Oh well, could be worse, I could have an ethical bar to steak and salad...it must be Hell on wheels for vegans.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I find that quite surprising considering the original study used meal replacement shakes which are clearly not REAL FOOD. I guess it was a trade off of to ensure that the 800 cals could easily be quantified for people taking part in the study.

Real food. (no need to shout)
That's quite subjective.
To some, it's what they personally grow, or rear, and gather, or kill and butcher themselves.
To some, it's organic, at Tesco's.
To some, it's under clingfilm on the chill counter
To some, it's in the freezer at a wholesalers
To some, it's a little vitamin or mineral tablet from Holland and Barretts, or the internet.
If you are with NASA, it's freeze dried, and in a plastic bag, and rehydrated with processed urine.
If you are in a third world, it's whatever you can find to live on.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Yes, I was quite surprised too.
It was,in the original study apparently, a diet of shakes and green leafy veggies. The objective was not only to demonstrate that fat loss would solve the problem but to do so at speed and, I believe, in a manner which would allow for ease of monitoring.
The study did achieve very fast weight loss but a) not all people could tolerate such a diet (yuk from me), b) he accepts that slower weight loss should achieve the same end result c) it is the end result and the maintainance of weight loss rather than the mechanism which he seems to regard as important.
I have to say doing 800 cals and 20gms or less of carbs on real food is a b****rd of a job and in my experience needs supplements of minerals and vitamins which are much less likely to be needed on a slightly higher calorie intake. So, I suspect, it comes down to how fast you want to shed the fat.
May I say, smugly, that my recent abdominal scan showed a very healthy liver which suggests my pancreas is also fat cleared? According to the Prof the pancreas can recover over time - I await personal proof of this as my FBG and post-prandial figures hop up depressingly still if I cheat to the extent of indulging in an apple or 150gms of strawberries + 100gms of Greek yoghurt. Oh well, could be worse, I could have an ethical bar to steak and salad...it must be Hell on wheels for vegans.

If you had to kill and butcher your steak, could you?
That would be more ethical from the animals point of view.
Especially if you and the bull were both bare handed?

Me, I could have the lettuce part of the steak and salad any day.

 

[TinaD]

Real food. (no need to shout)
That's quite subjective.
To some, it's what they personally grow, or rear, and gather, or kill and butcher themselves.
To some, it's organic, at Tesco's.
To some, it's under clingfilm on the chill counter
To some, it's in the freezer at a wholesalers
To some, it's a little vitamin or mineral tablet from Holland and Barretts, or the internet.
If you are with NASA, it's freeze dried, and in a plastic bag, and rehydrated with processed urine.
If you are in a third world, it's whatever you can find to live on.

True enough - availabily to the consumer has to be taken into account. However avoiding heavily processed food should be relatively easy for the bulk of the UK population.

 

[TinaD]

If you had to kill and butcher your steak, could you?
That would be more ethical from the animals point of view.
Especially if you and the bull were both bare handed?

Me, I could have the lettuce part of the steak and salad any day.

At 74 I shall not be taking on any bulls but I do kill and prepare poultry. You would be very short of nutrients if you lived solely on lettuce.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

True enough - availabily to the consumer has to be taken into account. However avoiding heavily processed food should be relatively easy for the bulk of the UK population.

Oh no, I realise how privileged I am.
What is your definition of the bulk of the population?
Class, income, number of kids, etc ?

 

[PattiEvans]

Sorry to go back to the original purpose of the thread (I have no issues with thread hijacking) it's how normal face to face conversations go. Anyway, it was suggested that my carb level of 70ish grams per day could give me insulin resistance. So today I was having a sunbed treatment and as my thoughts wandered to pass the time, I started to think about this (logically I hope). Gary Scheiner and John Walsh (Using insulin) both seem to intimate that people use between 0.5 and 1.0 units per kg in weight. I worked mine out and checked my mental arithmetic on the calculator when I got home. I am actually using 0.3u per kilo, which doesn't suggest IR. Of course people do use less on pumps than on MDI as a general rule of thumb.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

At 74 I shall not be taking on any bulls but I do kill and prepare poultry. You would be very short of nutrients if you lived solely on lettuce.

Exactly.
Ethically, the bull has the upper hand, we are just privileged enough to be able to let the process sort it out for us to have it as a steak.
It's all about were we draw our lines on what processed food is.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Sorry to go back to the original purpose of the thread (I have no issues with thread hijacking) it's how normal face to face conversations go. Anyway, it was suggested that my carb level of 70ish grams per day could give me insulin resistance. So today I was having a sunbed treatment and as my thoughts wandered to pass the time, I started to think about this (logically I hope). Gary Scheiner and John Walsh (Using insulin) both seem to intimate that people use between 0.5 and 1.0 units per kg in weight. I worked mine out and checked my mental arithmetic on the calculator when I got home. I am actually using 0.3u per kilo, which doesn't suggest IR. Of course people do use less on pumps than on MDI as a general rule of thumb.

Yes, sorry about that.
Meetings need a chairperson.

 

[PattiEvans]

Yes, sorry about that.
Meetings need a chairperson.

LOL! Don't worry! As I said, it's normal.

If I were to rely on anything I personally produced I'd be starving now... tomato plants are still tiny as are the runner bean plants... and anyway, I do like a bit more variety than just those veg!

 

[TinaD]

Sorry to go back to the original purpose of the thread (I have no issues with thread hijacking) it's how normal face to face conversations go. Anyway, it was suggested that my carb level of 70ish grams per day could give me insulin resistance. So today I was having a sunbed treatment and as my thoughts wandered to pass the time, I started to think about this (logically I hope). Gary Scheiner and John Walsh (Using insulin) both seem to intimate that people use between 0.5 and 1.0 units per kg in weight. I worked mine out and checked my mental arithmetic on the calculator when I got home. I am actually using 0.3u per kilo, which doesn't suggest IR. Of course people do use less on pumps than on MDI as a general rule of thumb.

Quite right - sorry to wander so far from the topic. However I found no suggestion that insulation resistance was identified by Taylor (altho', of course, he was working on Type 2 not Type 1 diabetics). There was some dicussion as far as I vaguely recall (sorry posted book off to newly diagnosed friend yesterday) of a natural mechanism kicking in to, effectively, differentiate between providing glucose to muscles when the levels were very low so that the brain would have an adequate supply.