What determines how many calories people eat during a meal?

[Eddy Edson]

New paper from Kevin Hall's group, a secondary analysis of a previously published study. Something puzzling is happening with protein ...

Diets for the prevention and treatment of obesity are often informed by theories about food characteristics believed to support spontaneous reductions in ad libitum energy intake without inducing hunger. Here we estimated how energy density, hyper-palatability, protein content and eating rate affected ad libitum energy intake of 2,733 meals from four dietary patterns. Energy density, eating rate and hyper-palatable foods were consistently positively related to meal energy intake across all diets. Protein content was positively related to meal energy intake during ultraprocessed and unprocessed diets but was not significantly related to energy intake of minimally processed low-fat or low-carbohydrate meals.

Thread, including a link to read-only un-paywalled version:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620095719469383680

 

[bulkbiker]

Nobody eats "calories" people eat food.

Different foods provide different levels of satiety and that satiety is present for different time spans.

Hardly bleeding edge research.

 

[harbottle]

New paper from Kevin Hall's group, a secondary analysis of a previously published study. Something puzzling is happening with protein ...

Diets for the prevention and treatment of obesity are often informed by theories about food characteristics believed to support spontaneous reductions in ad libitum energy intake without inducing hunger. Here we estimated how energy density, hyper-palatability, protein content and eating rate affected ad libitum energy intake of 2,733 meals from four dietary patterns. Energy density, eating rate and hyper-palatable foods were consistently positively related to meal energy intake across all diets. Protein content was positively related to meal energy intake during ultraprocessed and unprocessed diets but was not significantly related to energy intake of minimally processed low-fat or low-carbohydrate meals.

Thread, including a link to read-only un-paywalled version:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1620095719469383680

Interesting - it seems their findings (Which they were surprised at) go against claims made by certain diets about satiety and high protein diets.

 

[bulkbiker]

Interesting - it seems their findings (Which they were surprised at) go against claims made by certain diets about satiety and high protein diets.

I think we need to analyse very closely what their diets were composed of.
Also their "findings" appear in every case to be preceded by "possibly" so a lot more like theories than findings.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Interesting - it seems their findings (Which they were surprised at) go against claims made by certain diets about satiety and high protein diets.

I'll be trying a few experiments myself.

 

[Eddy Edson]

I think we need to analyse very closely what their diets were composed of.

Diets are described in the primary studies:

Effect of a plant-based, low-fat diet versus an animal-based, ketogenic diet on ad libitum energy intake - PubMed

The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity posits that high-carbohydrate diets lead to excess insulin secretion, thereby promoting fat accumulation and increasing energy intake. Thus, low-carbohydrate diets are predicted to reduce ad libitum energy intake as compared to low-fat, high-carbohydrate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ultra-Processed Diets Cause Excess Calorie Intake and Weight Gain: An Inpatient Randomized Controlled Trial of Ad Libitum Food Intake - PubMed

We investigated whether ultra-processed foods affect energy intake in 20 weight-stable adults, aged (mean ± SE) 31.2 ± 1.6 years and BMI = 27 ± 1.5 kg/m². Subjects were admitted to the NIH Clinical Center and randomized to receive either ultra-processed or unprocessed diets for 2...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Diets are described in the primary studies:

Effect of a plant-based, low-fat diet versus an animal-based, ketogenic diet on ad libitum energy intake - PubMed

The carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity posits that high-carbohydrate diets lead to excess insulin secretion, thereby promoting fat accumulation and increasing energy intake. Thus, low-carbohydrate diets are predicted to reduce ad libitum energy intake as compared to low-fat, high-carbohydrate...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Ultra-Processed Diets Cause Excess Calorie Intake and Weight Gain: An Inpatient Randomized Controlled Trial of Ad Libitum Food Intake - PubMed

We investigated whether ultra-processed foods affect energy intake in 20 weight-stable adults, aged (mean ± SE) 31.2 ± 1.6 years and BMI = 27 ± 1.5 kg/m². Subjects were admitted to the NIH Clinical Center and randomized to receive either ultra-processed or unprocessed diets for 2...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Plant based, low fat, and minimal processed?
Best satiety and lower calorie intake.

 

[bulkbiker]

Plant based, low fat, and minimal processed?
Best satiety and lower calorie intake, (not by a vast amount to be fair)

In 20 healthy 30 year olds... following each diet for a fortnight then immediately switching..

Drawing any conclusions from that is nonsensical. Unless you have a bias of course..

 

[Eddy Edson]

Notwithstanding bulkbiker's hilarious lack of self-awareness, those primary studies are classics of rigorous, nuanced experimentation and analysis.

As a little example, this discussion of the adequacy of the 2 week timing from the LC vs LF paper:

Energy intake on the LF diet was stable over both weeks and was
persistently lower than the LC diet. Energy intake during the LC diet
was significantly decreased during the second week compared to the
first week and coincided with increased capillary β-hydroxybutyrate
during the second week of the LC diet. It is intriguing to speculate
that the observed ~300 kcal d−1 reduction in energy intake from the
first to second week of the LC diet corresponds to the magnitude
of the appetite-suppressive effect of ketones. Whether long-term
adaptations to the diets would eventually eliminate or reverse the
energy intake differences is unknown. A recent study found that
after 10–15 weeks of adaptation to a LC diet (~20% carbohydrate,
~60% fat), participants reported significantly reduced satiety as
compared to a LF diet (~60% carbohydrate, ~20% fat),22 which supports
our shorter-term observation of greater energy intake during
the LC diet.

The physiological process of adapting to a ketogenic diet is multifaceted,
involving multiple organ systems and plays out over a
variety of time scales23. Inpatient feeding of the LC diet for 2 weeks
resulted in a substantial degree of physiological adaptation by several
metrics. First, we observed impaired glucose tolerance at the end of
the second week of the LC diet that likely indicates a substantial
degree of physiological adaptation to the diet. Second, daily respiratory
quotient was ~0.75 during the LC diet, indicating a substantial
increase in fat and ketone oxidation, which has previously been
shown to occur within the first week of adaptation to a ketogenic
diet with no further changes over the following few weeks24. Third,
nutritional ketosis was established within several days of instituting
the LC diet and capillary β-hydroxybutyrate was stable during
the second week of the diet. Stable fasting blood ketones have been
observed at weeks two, three and four of an isocaloric ketogenic diet
in a previous inpatient controlled feeding study,24 suggesting that
it is unlikely that further increases in ketones would be expected
with prolonged exposure to the LC diet. Finally, plasma uric acid
approximately doubles at the onset of a ketogenic diet but returns
to ~20–50% greater than baseline after 4–8 weeks of adaptation
in an outpatient setting25–27. This was similar to the ~35% greater
than baseline uric acid levels that we observed after 2 weeks of inpatient
LC feeding (Table 2) and suggests that outpatient studies may
require longer adaptation periods to ketogenic diets, perhaps due to
reduced diet adherence compared to our inpatient study that had
greater control over the food environment.

And the concluding comment is a gem, putting the study at odds with the tedious simplistic dogmas of most of the diet tribes:

The passive overconsumption model of obesity predicts that
consuming a diet with high energy density results in excess energy
intake and weight gain. The carbohydrate–insulin model predicts
that consuming a diet with high-glycemic carbohydrates results in
increased postprandial insulin that drives body fat accumulation,
thereby increasing energy intake. While our LF diet contained foods
with high glycemic load that substantially increased postprandial
glucose and insulin levels compared to the LC diet, the LF diet led
to less energy intake compared to the LC diet, which contradicts the
predictions of the carbohydrate–insulin model. While the LC diet
was high in energy density, it did not result in body fat gain, which
challenges the validity of the passive overconsumption model. Our
results suggest that regulation of energy intake is more complex
than these and other simple models propose.

 

[bulkbiker]

In 2 weeks eating 20% of the diet composed of carbs I doubt many of 10 the healthy young 30 year olds would be anywhere near ketosis let alone fat burning mode which can take up to 2 months to achieve.

Anyone who believes that 2 weeks demonstrates anything abou eating patterns has to be a bit deluded even if they are Kevin Hall.

" While the LC diet was high in energy density, it did not result in body fat gain,"

which must be considered rather odd?

 

[Eddy Edson]

In 2 weeks eating 20% of the diet composed of carbs I doubt many of 10 the healthy young 30 year olds would be anywhere near ketosis let alone fat burning mode which can take up to 2 months to achieve.

Carbs were 10% of energy in the LC diet. A quick scan through keto sites suggests ketosis within a few days is entirely typical at that level, as was in fact the case in this study.

 

[bulkbiker]

Carbs were 10% of energy in the LC diet. A quick scan through keto sites suggests ketosis within a few days is entirely typical at that level, as was in fact the case in this study.



Nope.

" Here we estimated how energy density, hyper-palatability, protein content and eating rate affected ad libitum energy intake of 2,733 meals from four dietary patterns."

Estimated.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Protein content was positively related to meal energy intake during ultraprocessed and unprocessed diets but was not significantly related to energy intake of minimally processed low-fat or low-carbohydrate meals.

This really popped out to me as interesting. And not for the first time I’ve seen things that suggest the way food is ‘engineered’ both for extended shelf life, and to almost encourage overconsumption of it by targeting pleasure centres in the brain seems to be part of the modern challenge with food. The food industry is an industry - and in order to grow year on year it benefits them to get us to eat more of what they produce.

Reminds me of part of a documentary piece about lab rats. If you feed them entirely with sugar they stop eating when they’ve had enough, and their weight remains stable. If you feed them only fat, again they stop eating and their weight remains stable. But if you mix the sugar and fat 50:50, they just keep eating - way beyond their need - and become significantly overweight.

I know the phrase ‘ultraprocessed’ is a bit fraught with difficulty (because so few things are minimally processed). But I think the prevalence of ultra-ultra processed foods is problematic. And it doesn’t seem to be going away.

 

[bulkbiker]

This really popped out to me as interesting. And not for the first time I’ve seen things that suggest the way food is ‘engineered’ both for extended shelf life, and to almost encourage overconsumption of it by targeting pleasure centres in the brain seems to be part of the modern challenge with food. The food industry is an industry - and in order to grow year on year it benefits them to get us to eat more of what they produce.

Reminds me of part of a documentary piece about lab rats. If you feed them entirely with sugar they stop eating when they’ve had enough, and their weight remains stable. If you feed them only fat, again they stop eating and their weight remains stable. But if you mix the sugar and fat 50:50, they just keep eating - way beyond their need - and become significantly overweight.

I know the phrase ‘ultraprocessed’ is a bit fraught with difficulty (because so few things are minimally processed). But I think the prevalence of ultra-ultra processed foods is problematic. And it doesn’t seem to be going away.

Thats the "food science" that is employed by most processed food companies.. get people hooked so they can't stop eating the product.
Ice Cream is possibly one of the worst offenders.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Thats the "food science" that is employed by most processed food companies.. get people hooked so they can't stop eating the product.
Ice Cream is possibly one of the worst offenders.

It’s been fascinating (and quite depressing) to watch what has been happening to vegan food choices in recent years, as it has become a more mainstream way of eating.

When my youngest first adopted a vegan diet 5 or 6 years ago it was still just about mostly based on cooking from raw ingredients, and finding workarounds using things like ‘nutritional yeast’ to give a cheesy flavour to a bechamel sauce. Lots of veg prepping. LOTS of mushrooms. Everything made from scratch.

Now every supermarket has what feels like aisles and aisles of prepackaged ready to heat things in plastic wrapping with a bazillion ingredients, preservatives, enhancers, and additives

The food industry has decided there’s money to be made…

 

[bulkbiker]

The food industry has decided there’s money to be made…

And pushes the "plant based is more healthy" mantra at every available opportunity.
Which when it is ultra processed food (beyond meat for example) is simply untrue, a prime example of "health washing".

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It’s been fascinating (and quite depressing) to watch what has been happening to vegan food choices in recent years, as it has become a more mainstream way of eating.

When my youngest first adopted a vegan diet 5 or 6 years ago it was still just about mostly based on cooking from raw ingredients, and finding workarounds using things like ‘nutritional yeast’ to give a cheesy flavour to a bechamel sauce. Lots of veg prepping. LOTS of mushrooms. Everything made from scratch.

Now every supermarket has what feels like aisles and aisles of prepackaged ready to heat things in plastic wrapping with a bazillion ingredients, preservatives, enhancers, and additives

The food industry has decided there’s money to be made…

If they didn't make money, we'd be back to growing our own food, and mass starvation.
It's always going to be that way.
Technology and population expansion.
The pressures of modern life, and the cost meaning both parents hold down full time jobs.
It's happened to all foods in my lifetime, not just vegan.
From the slice of ham in a brown paper bag from the butchers, to plastic packed preservative gas filled from Tescos.
From the 100lb bag of potatoes from the farm that was always in the corner of the kitchen to the washed plastic bag in the fridge now.
From the diced beef for the hotpot that night dripping blood from the waxed wrapper in the paper bag to the vacuum packed wrapper in the freezer, or even the hotpot ready meal.
From shopping every day to shopping every week.

It's nice to think we could have a little plot, grow our own food, raise a cow, butcher it in the barn, then eat fresh veg and meat, but in reality, we'd then need an industrial freezer, or the cow would rot, the veg would spoil, and we'd die.
And our life would be working on the farm.
Or maybe have a community farmer, but then the prices would triple from the mass produced prices for the food industry mass produced supermarket chain supply, and he'd need the freezer, or it's back to meat every slaughter day.

Plus how many people could actually take Ermintrude into the barn, shoot her in the head, and cut a leg off for dinner?
She's pre packaged on the meat aisle in modern life. And put back down if the blood is leaking out.
The potatoes are pre washed, mushrooms cleaned of the soil.
And the variety is there all year, not just seasonally.
The demand already exists to make life easier.

I still make most foods from scratch, I've gone much more vegetarian recently, who knows, maybe the future will bring the little food tablet that was always on Tomorrows World in the 70's.
If it does though, it'll be to satisfy customer demand.

 

[nonethewiser]

It’s been fascinating (and quite depressing) to watch what has been happening to vegan food choices in recent years, as it has become a more mainstream way of eating.

When my youngest first adopted a vegan diet 5 or 6 years ago it was still just about mostly based on cooking from raw ingredients, and finding workarounds using things like ‘nutritional yeast’ to give a cheesy flavour to a bechamel sauce. Lots of veg prepping. LOTS of mushrooms. Everything made from scratch.

Now every supermarket has what feels like aisles and aisles of prepackaged ready to heat things in plastic wrapping with a bazillion ingredients, preservatives, enhancers, and additives

The food industry has decided there’s money to be made…

Bet your daughter & you still cook from fresh though, there's place for prepacked food no matter what diet you follow, bought meals for mother & mother in law when they could no longer cook, really good quality ones from M&S which would gladly eat myself.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Bet your daughter & you still cook from fresh though, there's place for prepacked food no matter what diet you follow, bought meals for mother & mother in law when they could no longer cook, really good quality ones from M&S which would gladly eat myself.

Oh yes I’m not against them on principle… And for some people they are essential to independent living. I grew up in the 70s when all this took off like a rocket - and convenience was everything. But a reliance on them by the majority of households, and the increased proportion of UPF in an average weekly shop, does seem to have had a negative impact on the nation’s relationship to food overall. And our national waistline.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Oh yes I’m not against them on principle… And for some people they are essential to independent living. I grew up in the 70s when all this took off like a rocket - and convenience was everything. But a reliance on them by the majority of households, and the increased proportion of UPF in an average weekly shop, does seem to have had a negative impact on the nation’s relationship to food overall. And our national waistline.

The 70's?
Vesta ready meals!