Vitamins and minerals

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Gwynn

Gwynn

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
Sorry about this long post but something has been niggling at me from the very start, at diagnosis.

As many of you may know I am very much into analysing things to aid my overall understanding and where applicable improve my management and control.

In regard to diabetes I initially looked in detail at the food I was consuming specifically at calories and carbohydrates. The aim was to lose weight.

That analysis eventually expanded into all the normal nutients (protein, fibre, fats, cholesterol, salt, etc)

Then, out of interest (and after a shock at my iron levels) and curiosity I launched into looking at vitamins and eventually minerals.

One vitamin in particular B3 (Niacin) caused me a lot of trouble regularly flipping into overdose without taking any B3 supplement.

It turned out that one of my main daily supplements a multivitamin provided 27mg of B3 in a single tablet. The official upper limit for B3 is 35mg. Above that can cause some nasty permanent problems.

Ok, no problem, I hear you say, but the problem is that a normal diet will provide more than 25mg B3 giving a combined overdose total of approximately 52mg. My saving grace was that I take a PPI med every day and that reduces the absorption of B3 back into safe levels.

Just as precaution, I have recently halved the daily multivitamin tablet

So why am I saying all this?

It seems rather easy to overdose on many vitamins and minerals. How is anyone supposed to know? The multivitamin on its own was fine, but combined with the days food it may cause problems. B3 was just one example, but multivitamins power-in all sorts of vitamins and minerals. Combine that with a lack of knowledge about what is in our food and trouble is not far away.

I have a good example from when I first started to sort things out at diagnosis but had no information, but plenty of panic and worry. I took a multivitamin and an iron supplement daily and, without realising it, overdosed on iron. Thankfully that was discoveted by a blood test. That incidrnt switched me on to investigating more deeply what food I was eating and what I was taking as supplements.

I guess the moral of all this, is to be cautious about multivitamins and supplements and, as they always recommend, seek your doctors opinion/advice before taking any supplements (not that I have as they don't seem to be interested).

But, that multivitamin alone could cause an overdose of Niacin. Or have I still misunderstood something? Nutrition is a very complex area and worse, every human body is different.

Sorry if the above is boring, pointless, or just plain wrong but if I am right and just one person looks a bit closer at what they are taking and avoids problems then this post has been worthwhile.
 
For the most part, your body will expel any additional vitamin it doesn't need therefore making it impossible to overdose on most things. Iron can be an issue but no-one should ever take iron supplements without having an accurate Hb or HCT level first.

I think excessive vitamin C can cause an upset stomach but I think that has to be taken to extreme levels. Most multi-vitamins are at such low level you would never risk overdosing on them. If you have a balanced, healthy diet, you shouldn't need any additional supplements at all - except maybe vitamin D (because none of us in this country get enough sunshine) 🙂
 
I seem to see a different view, looking on the internet. It seems it is possible to overdose on some vitamins (mostly fat soluble ones) and some minerals, but you have to try hard to do so.

what I was concerned about was the large amount of B3 in just the one specific multivitamin and taken along with the days meals is almost guaranteed to be over the upper limit.

I may have confused exceeding the upper limit and the notion of overdose. My appologies if that is the case.
 
Gwynn said:
I seem to see a different view, looking on the internet. It seems it is possible to overdose on some vitamins (mostly fat soluble ones) and some minerals, but you have to try hard to do so.

what I was concerned about was the large amount of B3 in just the one specific multivitamin and taken along with the days meals is almost guaranteed to be over the upper limit.

I may have confused exceeding the upper limit and the notion of overdose. My appologies if that is the case.
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A lot of it is the marketing.
If people have target of 35mg, they'll buy a 27mg tablet rather than a 17mg tablet.
More is better.
I read an article saying 500mg may be a limit to not exceed, so the marketing know they are safe with a few more mg.
A lot of people have no issues at all with no supplements, just expecting their normal food to provide for them.
And to be honest, it usually does.

Plus, all the information on packaging is purely a guideline to an average value, so it will be inaccurate anyway.
 
Just been looking stuff up and I now consider that excessive amounts are defined as 'way higher' (but not always consistently defined) than the upper limit.

Eg on one website as an example 500mg B3 is stated as excessive which is way above the official 35mg upper limit. I would have thought it to be clearer to just say 'greater than 35mg is excessive.

NHS guidelines give 35mg B3 as the upper limit and I always ensure I am well below that and yet above the RDA which is 16mg.

It all seems to be a huge minefield.

My presumption is that all should be ok if food and supplements together give vitamin and mineral amounts above the RDA and below the UL. But for B3, as my example, this is not the case as it can easily go above the upper limit.

So considering the different words used should one be worried if food and supplement give a value greater than the upper limit but less than 'excessive'. Its a nonsense of course. The upper limit is there for a reason.
 
Gwynn said:
Just been looking stuff up and I now consider that excessive amounts are defined as 'way higher' (but not always consistently defined) than the upper limit.

Eg on one website as an example 500mg B3 is stated as excessive which is way above the official 35mg upper limit. I would have thought it to be clearer to just say 'greater than 35mg is excessive.

NHS guidelines give 35mg B3 as the upper limit and I always ensure I am well below that and yet above the RDA which is 16mg.

It all seems to be a huge minefield.

My presumption is that all should be ok if food and supplements together give vitamin and mineral amounts above the RDA and below the UL. But for B3, as my example, this is not the case as it can easily go above the upper limit.

So considering the different words used should one be worried if food and supplement give a value greater than the upper limit but less than 'excessive'. Its a nonsense of course. The upper limit is there for a reason.
Click to expand...

I just looked at the NHS site.

"The amount of niacin you need is about:
  • 16.5mg a day for men
  • 13.2mg a day for women
You should be able to get all the niacin you need from your daily diet."

About 17.5, or 13.2??

Considering no one normally even knows what B3 is in, or how much they eat of anything, an "about" accurate to 0.1mg is fairly ridiculous, and that's before body size is even considered.

I don't even worry about quantities, but I do take a generic multi vitamin and mineral, on reflective, mostly from habit.
 
Yes everything is an approximation and everyone is different and supplements may not be regulated and supplement contents may not actually be that accurate, so working sensible stuff out is difficult.

The RDA and UL you state are the NHS limits I apply. I just wonder what an 'excessive' amount is when one site states 500mg is bordering on excessive. I thought that greater than the UL was excessive and directly heading into trouble.

I don't get all flustered about it all but I want to try to get some clarity if possible.
 
Some things (medications, food, supplements) have a wider range between "enough" and "harmful" than others. It sounds like that 35mg "upper limit" for B3 that you had mentioned is twice the recommended daily amount. So "more than enough". From the other things you have read, it could be that "harmful" starts at 500mg .
 
To be honest, I have never taken a multi-vitamin in my life, any more than I would consider routinely taking a multi-anitionic, without specific reason.

For me, supplementing is based on requirement and monitoring. The exception was in the peak of the pandemic, we started on Vitamin C as it was considered to be helpful, and incredibly difficult to overdose on to toxicity.

I supplement D3, with K2 for bioavailabilty due a test showing a dramatic drop in levels. I do have vitamins and minerals tested periocally, due to the challenges I have with my thyroid and monitoring due the medication I take to address them.

In terms of how much is too much, I have a link somewhere that annoyingly isn't on this laptop, to a paper discussing where out of range tests levels become worrisome. It varies from test to test, but some have high buffer zones and others scant. I'll post a link if I can find it, but thought I'd mention it anyway, in the hope someone reading might have a link to hand. It is certainly worth saving.

It'll be on my "mission control" machine, but I'm not home for another three weeks.
 
Thanks for that, sounds interesting. I will forward to you post with the link
 
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