Vaccinations Smoke Covid and we have the Research to Prove it.

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pm133

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57441677

Finally, some good news being reported about vaccinations (not that you'd know it from the disgraceful tabloid-style headline.
The article above leads to a research publication.
Table 6 of that publication tells us what I've been banging on about for weeks, that the link between rising cases and subsequent deaths/hospitalisations amongst vaccinated people has been essentially broken in all but name.

Out of over 33,000 cases of the Indian variant (which has now been in circulation for around 4 months), just 1785 of those cases were amongst those doubly vaccinated, just 20 of those people needed hospitalisation (as a direct result of having covid) and there were just 12 deaths.

It's also worth noticing that even amongst completely unvaccinated people, this variant only caused 146 hospitalisations (as a direct result of having covid) and 23 deaths.

In that context, there is absolutely no case whatsoever for continuing with legally enforced covid restrictions unless further evidence emerges of more serious illnesses from this or any other variant.

This is excellent news for a change but to the surprise of absolutely nobody, the BBC focusses on the negative, scary headline. That organisation is becoming more tabloid with every passing day and it's very disappointing to see.
 
pm133 said:
It's also worth noticing that even amongst completely unvaccinated people, this variant only caused 146 hospitalisations (as a direct result of having covid) and 23 deaths.
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I've seen other estimates that the hospitalisation rate is around 5% of confirmed cases (compared to more like 10% last year). So much lower (and they're more commonly younger so don't stay as long and are much less likely to die). Still could easily become a big enough problem to cause issues in hospitals (who have other things they want to treat).
 
Amity Island said:
Unfortunately, we have this as well. A professor who advises SAGE said the masks and social distancing should stay forever and said its no bigger deal than putting on a seat belt or scooping up dog poo.

She said: 'I think there's lots of different behaviours we've changed in our lives. We now routinely wear seat belts, we didn't use to.

'We now routinely pick up dog poo in the park, we didn't use to. When people see that there is a threat and there is something they can do to reduce that... themselves, their loved ones and their communities, what we see now over this last year is people do that.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Social distancing should stay FOREVER, says Communist SAGE scientist

Professor Susan Michie from University College London said she thinks the draconian restrictions should become part of people's every day routine.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk
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She's not just talking about covid here.
Her argument is that masks and social distancing will end flu and colds as well.

If she gets her way it will destroy the entire sporting and leisure industries as well as tourism, the airlines, pubs, theatres, cinemas and virtually everything else which makes life worth living.

It is fascinating and concerning to see someone like this attain such powerful positions in society. Fortunately, politicians would never allow something like this. It's just beyond ridiculous.
 
pm133 said:
Her argument is that masks and social distancing will end flu and colds as well.
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I think she's arguing just that we might wear masks when we have cold/flu symptoms, and (maybe) on public transport during flu season. Not (I suspect, anyway) all the time.

(I don't know whether that would actually help that much, but it doesn't seem like an insanely crazy suggestion.)
 
Life needs to return to normal now. Its as good as its going to get, at some point we just need to get on with it.
 
BlueArmy said:
Its as good as its going to get,
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No it isn't. The proportion of the population which has been vaccinated will increase over time which will reduce transmission, reducing the prevalence of the virus (so reducing the risk of infection in people who are unvaccinated).
 
if they are unvaccinated through choice thats their lookout.
 
delaying lockdown for a few weeks I have no issue with - wearing masks and suffering civil house arrest forever though is madness which I believe was the thread. The whole point of these measures was to stop the NHS being overwhelmed, the evidence seems to suggest, it has.
 
BlueArmy said:
if they are unvaccinated through choice thats their lookout.
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I was thinking mostly of children (especially teenagers). There are apparently ~2 million over 50 who haven't been (for whatever reason). And of course millions of adults who haven't been offered vaccines yet (or who have had one dose and are waiting for their second, or who have a few weeks to wait before the vaccination is fully effective).
BlueArmy said:
wearing masks and suffering civil house arrest forever though is madness which I believe was the thread
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Sure, and I don't think anyone wants that. I've heard a few people suggesting we might be wearing masks this year during the usual flu season, as much out of habit/fear as anything, and some who've suggested it would be helpful for people who feel a bit ill (with a cold/flu) to wear a mask (if they have to be among people at all). And suggestions that perhaps hand washing and using hand sanitiser might be habits that stay a bit.

Nothing more than that.

And the rumours seem to be that the reopening will likely be delayed by a month. (Still not sure whether I believe that they'll simply delay everything by a month. I'd guess they'll find it hard to resist making some changes in June.)
 
Bruce Stephens said:
In other news, Santiago has been locked down even though 75% of the population has had (at least) one dose and 58% have had two doses of a vaccine: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-11/chile-santiago-vaccinated-covid-19-surge-lockdown/100209768
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Does Chile have a functioning free health care system?
I think the answer to that might explain their problems.
It's very difficult to draw any conclusions from what is happening in borderline 3rd world countries.

We should be probably be looking at Israel for better comparisons.
I believe they have or are about to announce that wearing masks indoors is no longer a legal requirement.
 
It's fascinating to see some experts in total denial about the success of doubly dosed vaccinations.
To suggest that the links between cases and hospitalisations and deaths amongst this group isn't broken but just weakened is borderline fraudulent given the evidence just published showing precisely the contrary.

You do have to ask why they are bullshitting over this. It's genuinely puzzling. It's no wonder we are seeing so much vaccine hesitancy as people quite reasonably ask themselves what the point would be if restrictions are going to continue anyway.
 
pm133 said:
We should be probably be looking at Israel for better comparisons.
I believe they have or are about to announce that wearing masks indoors is no longer a legal requirement.
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If I'm reading the graphs correctly Israel has just under 60% of their total population fully vaccinated and daily new cases have been falling (pretty much monotonically) since mid March and are now single figures per million.

If our graph of confirmed daily cases looked like theirs there'd be no controversy. It would be obvious that we'd vaccinated enough people.
 
Bruce Stephens said:
If I'm reading the graphs correctly Israel has just under 60% of their total population fully vaccinated and daily new cases have been falling (pretty much monotonically) since mid March and are now single figures per million.

If our graph of confirmed daily cases looked like theirs there'd be no controversy. It would be obvious that we'd vaccinated enough people.
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I think if you compare those who are doubly vaccinated in both countries you'll see that hospitalisations and deaths are probably not too far from each other.

The problem we have here is that people insist on including unvaccinated and singly vaccinated people in case and hospitalisation counts when they are looking at the efficacy of vaccinations.
That is giving a totally misleading picture of where our country is right now and what needs to happen to resolve our difficulties. People are screaming for further restrictions when the real answer is to step up the vaccination program.

Interestingly enough, the public still seem to be supportive of further restrictions. I wonder if that attitude will change when furlough ends. I also wonder if most of those in favour of restrictions are in retirement or within the safety of employment.
 
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pm133 said:
Interestingly enough, the public still seem to be supportive of further restrictions. I wonder if that attitude will change when furlough ends. I also wonder if most of those in favour of restrictions are in retirement or within the safety of employment
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Here here. We as a country need to stop forgetting that the magic money tree is actually our taxes for the foreseeable future and the sooner we can get the economy back to normal and stop the losses the better.

I feel most sorry for the children. They have been robbed of a year of their valuable and short childhood experiences , starved of a proper education and will be the ones paying for this over their working lives - yet at least risk of harm from it or able to object to it.
 
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pm133 said:
People are screaming for further restrictions when the real answer is to step up the vaccination program.
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I'm afraid I suspect we're going about as fast as we can, given the supplies. So what we need is just more time.
 
BlueArmy said:
Here here. We as a country need to stop forgetting that the magic money tree is actually our taxes for the foreseeable future and the sooner we can get the economy back to normal and stop the losses the better.

I feel most sorry for the children. They have been robbed of a year of their valuable and short childhood exeriences, starved of a proper education and will be the ones paying for this over their working lives - yet at least risk of harm from it or object to it.
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Yes, I agree about children and young people in general.
They've sacrificed so many one-off life experiences that the rest of us have taken for granted, for a plague which doesn't even affect them to any great degree.

Us older foggies who've made ourselves more vulnerable to this virus by living unhealthy obesity-packed lives really have a lot of thanking to do of this young cohort and it really pisses me off to see them attacked so much by older generations for enjoying a completely harmless bit of sun in the parks and beaches after a year of missing out on so much.
 
Bruce Stephens said:
I'm afraid I suspect we're going about as fast as we can, given the supplies. So what we need is just more time.
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In the meantime, according to the latest figures, we have almost nobody in hospital in the UK as a direct result of covid and almost nobody dying of it.
And yet restrictions continue. It's utterly bizarre and questions need asking.

By all means, let's re-introduce restrictions if things get out of hand but there is no medical or scientific reason for continuing with restrictions in the meantime. Let people get on with re-building their lives and their businesses.

I know we don't agree on this and maybe that's because we're coming at it from different positions. I'm coming at it from the perspective of an ex-business owner so I can see the financial damage this is doing to people who have ploughed their life savings into their businesses and are now being forced out of business as a result of restrictions which make no sense whatsoever. People have and will lose their houses because of this. There's a real responsibility on government to at least give a passing semblance of giving a toss about these people. Some are in 6 figures of debt and have re-mortgaged their houses to keep going. Employees have absolutely no idea about the hardships being imposed on the self employed. No idea at all. They'll see it once furlough ends though because many jobs won't be there when this all ends.
Nobody wants to see people dying of covid but what is happening right now is beyond comprehension.
 
Bruce Stephens said:
I'm afraid I suspect we're going about as fast as we can, given the supplies. So what we need is just more time.
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I think your right, so I am still confused how we can meet our new obligations of donating 100m doses
 
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