Update on development of once weekly basals

Yep,I stand by my comments in the previous thread about these insulins. Basically, I wouldn’t take them in a million years.

“…an increased risk of severe hypoglycaemia with icodec” - predictable

Fasting blood glucoses were higher with efsitora but had a similarly low risk of hypoglycaemia or serious safety outcomes.To address the higher HbA1c and fasting glucoses, investigators implemented a modified dosing protocol for this subsequent study.” - they didn’t give people enough insulin but I bet when they do - surprise, surprise - the increased risk of severe hypoglycaemia will show with the second insulin too.

Basal insulin needs vary over 24hrs and day by day, so how could a weekly insulin ever work? You either give ‘enough’ that you risk severe hypoglycaemia, or you’re more cautious and have higher blood sugars than ideal.

The whole idea contradicts the proven success of pumps. Pumps work because you can finely tune basal hour by hour, day by day. These insulins actually do the opposite of that and remove all ability to finetune anything.
 
Yep,I stand by my comments in the previous thread about these insulins. Basically, I wouldn’t take them in a million years.

“…an increased risk of severe hypoglycaemia with icodec” - predictable

Fasting blood glucoses were higher with efsitora but had a similarly low risk of hypoglycaemia or serious safety outcomes.To address the higher HbA1c and fasting glucoses, investigators implemented a modified dosing protocol for this subsequent study.” - they didn’t give people enough insulin but I bet when they do - surprise, surprise - the increased risk of severe hypoglycaemia will show with the second insulin too.

Basal insulin needs vary over 24hrs and day by day, so how could a weekly insulin ever work? You either give ‘enough’ that you risk severe hypoglycaemia, or you’re more cautious and have higher blood sugars than ideal.

The whole idea contradicts the proven success of pumps. Pumps work because you can finely tune basal hour by hour, day by day. These insulins actually do the opposite of that and remove all ability to finetune anything.
I don't think I'd be interested either. Happy to manage diabetes with MDI.
 
Basal insulin needs vary over 24hrs and day by day, so how could a weekly insulin ever work? You either give ‘enough’ that you risk severe hypoglycaemia, or you’re more cautious and have higher blood sugars than ideal.
I am in total agreement that basal needs vary, hour by hour. I am a strong supporter of Tresiba and quite blatantly use it to keep me stable through the nights - which it does very successfully for me (over 75, physically active but no longer train for half marathons!).

I work on the basis that whatever Tresiba brings to my daytime BG management is "what it is", unseen, unquantified and in the background. Just as my liver's glucose releases are unseen and in the background. So I manage my daytime by bolus related to food, adjusted for activity (past, present and possible future).

I sometimes get that a bit wrong, but rigorously let my CGM alert me to an incoming drop or low and make a judged response from ignore for now to a big snack. I'm inwardly smug about very rarely going hypo. No deep hypo this year and rare mild lows (invariably from my "pushing my luck" with ignored early responses). My low TIR is miniscule.

Likewise I let my CGM alert me to highs and again make a judged response; I ignore higher alerts more often, sometimes anticipating that I'm about to be active and sometimes out of laziness. My longer term TIR is comfortably above 70%; right now my 30 and 14 day TIRs are 64% which is not ideal, but I've had an enduring heavy cold and been living in hotels for 17 of the last 20 nights eating out with no scales or measures and essentially guessing carbs meal by meal.

My point is that CGM provides for me what a pump does for you, @Inka, in terms of tech "helping". A 40 hr basal profile takes a huge amount of stress away from daily BG management; I know it's very fixed and inflexible and I blatantly trade on that - I have upped my basal as my cold continued and I have seen that help on my overnight graphs. My CGM graphs quickly show me when mynovernight basal is adrift. But I would willingly move to a 7 day basal (once suitably trialled and approved) and do more of what I do today in terms of using bolus, food and activity to manage myself while awake.

I can foresee that as I get older this will become even more helpful and as my cognitive ability continues to decline the simpler my BG management becomes for MDI the better that will be.
The whole idea contradicts the proven success of pumps. Pumps work because you can finely tune basal hour by hour, day by day. These insulins actually do the opposite of that and remove all ability to finetune aanything.
I also can see that a 7 day basal could sit in contradiction to pumps. But my vision is to have a weekly basal injection and my future pump managing my active daytime needs. OR my pump delivering both the weekly background basal and my hourly bolus needs.

I think the contradiction with your "successful" pumps (with or without HCL) is your vulnerability to quickly having no basal should your pump fail and you needing to have basal pens handy at all times, as well as bolus. You all blithely talk about your pumps providing background (basal) needs from bolus insulin and ignore the contradiction of concept in that explanation. I do understand what is meant, when you pumpers refer to the short acting insulin covering basal needs as well. But there is a complexity in how you guys explain the concept.

In practice, and very wrongly, until now I simply have not met the eligibity criteria for having a pump. There is a glimmer of hope now. I have asked my Consultant to give me a priority above normal T1s (but not above children - their needs are far more important than me). I have explained that as someone with absolutely no panc'y there is far too little understanding of the juggling I have to do just to stay alive (too few of us to become visible in the requirement assessments). I have pointed out that I already have a diagnosis from 10 yrs ago of mild Impaired Cognitive Ability. I am concerned that if I don't get a pump soon my ability to learn (and for my identified future carers to learn) (yes I know this is Crystal Ball speculation) how I (or they) should manage me when pumping, will become an unrealistic solution. I have also pointed out that failure to approve a pump for me in the last 3+ years because I manage too well on MDI is a blatant disregard of responsibility for my care; I'm not sure this reasoning stands up!!

I want to be on a pump. But meanwhile I need to make MDI as successful as I can. I most politely and courteously say, @Inka, to make an argument that a weekly basal is a contradiction to the success of pumps is a flawed argument. There aren't enough funds to provide pumps wherever needed or wanted and until that is sorted a reliable 7 day basal would be great for me and I suspect many others. Don't underestimate how much stress reduction there is in not needing to think deeply about basal. It does need a different mindset for MDI. But so does pumping (along with those essential reserves of basal / bolus pens and in-date cartridges needed in relatively easy reach!).

Sorry this is lengthy.
 
No need to apologise for length @Proud to be erratic I appreciate you taking the time to explain your thoughts. I actually thought about you as I was writing my posts above as I remembered your Tresiba technique. If that suits you and you’re happy to do similar with a weekly basal, then that’s great 🙂

My point about it being contradictory to pumps was referring to the article. I hope I didn’t inadvertently suggest I thought it was a threat or an attack on pumps or anything. It mentioned pumps and hinted at the ‘precision’ of tailoring basal by the hour or minute to match a person’s needs, but then blithely (IMO) went on to praise the idea of a weekly basal - ie a flat rate basal over 168hrs. It was the linking of the two - the way it was written - that jarred on me.

I’m not quite sure what you meant about the complexity of pumps, but if you mean they’re not explained well or people like me casually toss around terms without explanation, then I apologise. I like to think of my pump as a pancreas. It releases insulin in a similar way to that which my own pancreas used to do - tiny, tiny amounts of insulin to control blood sugar in the absence of food (basal) and larger amounts to deal with meals (bolus). A human pancreas solely produces ‘bolus insulin’, whether it’s producing lots to deal with a large pizza and ice cream, or a miniscule amount to deal with the changes other hormones cause to blood sugar. I find thinking of a pump like that easiest.

I don’t take a basal pen out with me, just a bolus pen as back up. That will control blood sugar if there’s some pump issue - which is rare, thankfully. You can also use pumps on what’s called a tethered system (I think) where you take some basal insulin via pen and also basal from the pump. The thought is that that provides a cushion and reduces the risk of DKA in the event of a pump issue. I’ve never tried that and it doesn’t appeal, but there are various ways to use a pump apart from the usual.

I agree that a pump would probably be easier for most people as they get older, and I particularly and strongly agree with you that Type 3cs should get pumps if they want them due to the difficulties you’ve spoken of.

Good luck with your pump quest.
 
The ever-longer-insulin quest has always baffled me in terms of T1. Especially (as @Inka suggests) since being on a pump, and seeing the huge benefit of being able to stop or incrementally reduce my basal insulin supply for brief (irregular) periods every single day.

It has never been the number of injections that has been a problem for me. I much preferred the flexibility of 5+ injections a day vs 2x bimodal / mixed where I was “locked in” to the profile of the insulin and had to live my life based around that timetable and constraint.

I can’t really see the appeal in T2 where full insulin-replacement is required. I wonder if mostly it might be aimed at those with T2 who still have a reasonable amount of insulin production available, but who just need a little extra ‘boost’ gradually ticking away in the background?

No idea! Feels like a car manufacturer adding 15 more cup holders into a vehicle, because they know how to do that, rather than making the vehicle genuinely lower-impact on the environment - because that’s much harder to do!
 
I can’t really see the appeal in T2 where full insulin-replacement is required. I wonder if mostly it might be aimed at those with T2 who still have a reasonable amount of insulin production available, but who just need a little extra ‘boost’ gradually ticking away in the background?
That's my guess: it's for T2 who are just using basal insulin. Maybe for veterinary use, too (though maybe they have things that are already appropriate)?

Apparently the weekly insulin caused people to have many more hypos than shorter duration basals, which seems like it should make it some way down the list of choices for T1. It's not like we'd be saving many injections, after all. There's a not uncommon problem of forgetting a basal injection (or not being sure), but I doubt this is a good way to address it; maybe once a week is easier to remember, though?
 
I would find once a week harder to remember. I wake up every morning and I go to bed every night and my insulin is there by the bed to use at those times and I can adjust those doses according to what I need and I love the fact that I can do that. I often forget what day it is so remembering to inject once a week would be a nightmare for me..... but hell would have to freeze over before I willingly gave up on my trusty Levemir.
 
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