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Type 3c diagnosed some months ago

cherryvalley

Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 3c
Hi there...I'm a 72 year old lady diagnosed with type 1 diabetes ..I mentioned Type 3c as I had major Whipples surgery with my whole pancreas and other organs removed. I have found this a very challenging journey and wonder if anyone could give me any tips on managing my insulin routine. I inject 4x daily and am on a carb counting diet.
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry to hear you are finding your diabetes journey challenging but not having a pancreas does complicate things and Type 1 can be quite challenging enough without the extra issues of digestive enzymes and signalling hormones being missing.

Can I ask a few questions which will help myself and others understand your situation more fully?

How long have you been diagnosed?

Were you Type 1 (autoimmune diabetes) before the surgery to remove your pancreas or are you diabetic only as a result of that surgery or as a result of damage to your pancreas from disease or trauma which resulted in the removal?

Do you take Creon or other digestive enzyme supplement to help you digest your food and what guidance have you been given on adjusting the doses of that if you are on it.

Which insulins have they given you and do you have a Constant Glucose Monitor (sensor) to monitor your levels as well as a blood glucose meter where you need to finger prick and if so which one?

Good to hear that you are on a carb counting course and hope you find that helpful.

I think it is fair to say that you definitely qualify for the Type 3c category if your whole pancreas has been removed and in some respects it is better to have that flagged up as it highlights that there are additional issues which need to be considered.

I am going to tag @Proud to be erratic and @martindt1606 who I believe have both had a complete pancreas removal but we have other Type 3c members who have had partial removals or have necrotic damage to their pancreas from pancreatitis or pancreatic cysts. I am sure that comparing notes with others in a similar situation will be really helpful to you. Diabetes can be quite isolating, so it is really comforting to discuss issues with people who face the same challenges.
 
Welcome to the forum @cherryvalley

Sorry to read your story, but you are not alone

Alan 😉
 
Hi and welcome.

Sorry to hear you are finding your diabetes journey challenging but not having a pancreas does complicate things and Type 1 can be quite challenging enough without the extra issues of digestive enzymes and signalling hormones being missing.

Can I ask a few questions which will help myself and others understand your situation more fully?

How long have you been diagnosed?

Were you Type 1 (autoimmune diabetes) before the surgery to remove your pancreas or are you diabetic only as a result of that surgery or as a result of damage to your pancreas from disease or trauma which resulted in the removal?

Do you take Creon or other digestive enzyme supplement to help you digest your food and what guidance have you been given on adjusting the doses of that if you are on it.

Which insulins have they given you and do you have a Constant Glucose Monitor (sensor) to monitor your levels as well as a blood glucose meter where you need to finger prick and if so which one?

Good to hear that you are on a carb counting course and hope you find that helpful.

I think it is fair to say that you definitely qualify for the Type 3c category if your whole pancreas has been removed and in some respects it is better to have that flagged up as it highlights that there are additional issues which need to be considered.

I am going to tag @Proud to be erratic and @martindt1606 who I believe have both had a complete pancreas removal but we have other Type 3c members who have had partial removals or have necrotic damage to their pancreas from pancreatitis or pancreatic cysts. I am sure that comparing notes with others in a similar situation will be really helpful to you. Diabetes can be quite isolating, so it is really comforting to discuss issues with people who face the same challenges.
Thank-you so much for replying to my post. I did quite a long reply 30mins ago but can't see it here..I'm not a super whiz on these sites but am trying my best. Please tell me if I have replied twice. I have a Libre sensor which I find tremendous to help me keep track of my bsugars. I am on a set carb/insulin regime injecting Lantus once daily and Novarapid 4x daily. I am seen quite often by a diabetic consultant and nurse and now waiting to see a dietician again as I have digestive problems taking creon. I was diagnosed with Type 2 seven years ago and then 12 months ago having had some strange symptoms was told I had a lesion on my pancreas and the whole organ would have to be removed plus 4 other organs!! I have found this a very distressing and challenging journey and would be delighted to chat to anyone else with a similar experience.
 
Unfortunately no sign of your other long post. You aren't on the "red forum" as well are you?

Wow! 4 other organs! I am guessing spleen and gall bladder were two of them. Do the other missing organs impact your digestive system too? I know that @eggyg lost part of her pancreas and her spleen and I think her gall bladder prior to that. Hopefully she will correct me if I am wrong. Are you an permanent antibiotics if spleen is one of the organs you lost?

Sorry to hear that you are struggling with digestive issues but I think that is not uncommon until you get your doses of Creon more or less sorted and much like insulin it does vary from one person to another and different meals need different amounts, so it can be a case of trial and improvement from what I understand. Hopefully some of our other Creonistas, as we call them, will be able to give you some top tips. Are you managing to get supplies of Creon OK. I know some members have been waiting some time for their prescription to be filled and having to ration it a bit, which is by no means ideal.
I believe Roland (@Proud to be erratic) also had problems with a bacterial infection in his gut for some time after his pancrectomy so perhaps he can give you some insight into that too.

Anyway, I hope others will be along soon. So pleased to hear that you have Libre and you are finding it helpful.
 
Unfortunately no sign of your other long post. You aren't on the "red forum" as well are you?

Wow! 4 other organs! I am guessing spleen and gall bladder were two of them. Do the other missing organs impact your digestive system too? I know that @eggyg lost part of her pancreas and her spleen and I think her gall bladder prior to that. Hopefully she will correct me if I am wrong. Are you an permanent antibiotics if spleen is one of the organs you lost?

Sorry to hear that you are struggling with digestive issues but I think that is not uncommon until you get your doses of Creon more or less sorted and much like insulin it does vary from one person to another and different meals need different amounts, so it can be a case of trial and improvement from what I understand. Hopefully some of our other Creonistas, as we call them, will be able to give you some top tips. Are you managing to get supplies of Creon OK. I know some members have been waiting some time for their prescription to be filled and having to ration it a bit, which is by no means ideal.
I believe Roland (@Proud to be erratic) also had problems with a bacterial infection in his gut for some time after his pancrectomy so perhaps he can give you some insight into that too.

Anyway, I hope others will be along soon. So pleased to hear that you have Libre and you are finding it helpful.
My gallbladder duodenum half my tummy and bile duct were removed..I was in hospital for five months recovering and on iv insulin most of the time due to my illness/recovery. My pharmacist has problems getting creon ..at present I'm taking pancreas which is similar seemingly... I don't know what the red forum means ..this is the only time I have posted online apart from what's app to my family and friends. You sound very knowledgeable ..are you a Type 1 diabetic
 
My gallbladder duodenum half my tummy and bile duct were removed..I was in hospital for five months recovering and on iv insulin most of the time due to my illness/recovery. My pharmacist has problems getting creon ..at present I'm taking pancreas which is similar seemingly... I don't know what the red forum means ..this is the only time I have posted online apart from what's app to my family and friends. You sound very knowledgeable ..are you a Type 1 diabetic
I meant to say pancrex..
 
Perhaps you just forgot to post reply @cherryvalley ? Or accidently deleted it. I’ve done that before when trying to add or change things. No need to worry as you’ve told us the info now.

So are you on set doses of Novorapid?
 
I meant to say pancrex..

Perhaps you just forgot to post reply @cherryvalley ? Or accidently deleted it. I’ve done that before when trying to add or change things. No need to worry as you’ve told us the info now.

So are you on set doses of Novorapid?
Yes I am on 5 units NR at breakfast 4 units at lunch and 3 units at dinner plus 15 units of Lantus at breakfast
 
The "red forum" is a very similar forum to this but it is commercially operated and has more radical views, whereas this forum is independent but is kindly hosted by the Diabetes UK charity. This forum appears as a white and blue format but the other is red and white hence "the red forum". Many people initially coming to this forum also find the other one and it is very easy to get confused between them. I am pleased you have found us on the blue forum as the approach here is very knowledgeable but more moderate.

Sometimes I lose long posts too. It is very frustrating when it happens.

Yes I am Type 1, although initially assumed to be Type 2. You learn lots here on the forum about all types of diabetes and most of my knowledge is by reading other people's experiences here. Hopefully you will benefit from that too. Obviously it is a busy time of year for everyone just now but the other Type 3cs I have tagged will be along when they have time, to say hello and compare notes.
 
Hello @cherryvalley,
Welcome to the forum. I surrendered my panc'y some 6 months after my 70th birthday and got that instantaneous introduction to the D malarkey. I knew a little about T2, since my brother lost both legs to his T2; I think I was more aware of his amputation issues, than the finer points of D management. Back in 2020 I felt horribly adrift, today I still don't feel I've got this sorted - BUT I now understand that it is always going to be "work in progress" and I no longer worry about days when my D is "off" nor does it frighten me as it did then.

You mention another long reply (other than your 2 posts above) and it's not on the forum (right now only 2 posts are shown as existing. So it looks as though you have a draft somewhere that's not been sent and may now be lost!

Barbara, @rebrascora, gave some great comments and I would wholly endorse that you will benefit by amending your diagnosis to T3c. You are as if T1, but without the autoimmune vulnerability. Your T2 former status is relevant in that, if originally properly diagnosed, you have rather more insulin resistance than those folk who don't enjoy the wonders of having diabetes. That means your insulin dosing might well be much greater than, say, mine. This is a useful "lesson": we are all different and with D that is so true. What works for one person may be very different for someone else.

Early on after my Whipples I was really struggling. My surgery was in an Oxford Hospital, I lived in Bucks and my DSN was from a Bucks Hospital. I was discharged from Oxford with a T1 diagnosis and I had no idea that T3c existed. But I wasn't T1 and while I was wholly insulin dependent my lack of other pancreatic hormones, such as Glucagon and Somostatin were just not recognised as a difficulty by either my GP nor (most surprisingly) my DSN. There was full awareness that I had no digestive enzymes and Creon was essential. But no awareness that I can't naturally produce vitamins A, D, E and K. I even reached a point where my normally bright and helpful GP, no doubt under pressure from the accountants somewhere above her, decide (aided and abetted by my DSN) to seriously curtail my test strips. I was neither consulted nor advised of this decision and found out when my chemist didn't provide them. I then had to make my robust case to get that stupid decision amended. There simply was no understanding of how much consequence there was to having no panc'y. Lockdown didn't help, GP behind a locked door and several layers of Receptionists et al. Subsequently I've asked various GPs and Nurses about their understanding of T3c to confirm it is almost non-existent.

However, the "as if T1" diagnosis does keep you firmly within the higher level of care that NICE Guidance (NG28) provides, rather than the less helpful guidance to GPs for T2.

I only got CGM after 12 months (somewhat as a result of the curtailment of test strips) and that has been a game changer. Do you have CGM such as Libre 2+ or Dexcom One+?

My salvation during that 1st year was Gary Scheiner's book "Think Like a Pancreas". He is a US citizen, with a relaxed chatty style of writing and over 20 years experience as a T1 himself. He uses US units of measurement but always provides our European units alongside (so helpful). Early on Scheiner tells us that "Diabetes is Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory". That is so true: then and now. Just knowing and reminding yourself of that is, in itself, a great help: when some response to food or insulin isn't working how you've been led to expect - stay calm, it's part of the D is Contradictory; when the carb counting doesn't work - its the D being complicated; when you despair about what to do next - it's the D is Complicated.

Meanwhile, this Forum is a great place for moral support; with centuries of accumulated experience about managing one's D with tips and tricks or workarounds for almost everything. People here understand, yet the overall moderation of the site prevents anyone from trying to dictate what you should do. So ask questions, any question, we've all been in your position at some earlier point. No question is stupid.

Did your surgical team mention internal scar tissue? It was on my pre-op notes but not discussed after surgery and I wish it had been. I was so busy with managing (badly) my D and having Chemotherapy, that scar tissue seemed wholly irrelevant - until it caught a bit of my intestine , blocked my colon and necessitated further surgery reopening my now fully helped visible scar! I wish I'd been aware of that risk and not overdone my physical recovery exercising; too much lifting, stretching etc!

Once again Welcome. I've been where you are now some 4 years ago. Your D is challenging, but manageable and that process really does get easier with time.
 
Hello @cherryvalley,
Welcome to the forum. I surrendered my panc'y some 6 months after my 70th birthday and got that instantaneous introduction to the D malarkey. I knew a little about T2, since my brother lost both legs to his T2; I think I was more aware of his amputation issues, than the finer points of D management. Back in 2020 I felt horribly adrift, today I still don't feel I've got this sorted - BUT I now understand that it is always going to be "work in progress" and I no longer worry about days when my D is "off" nor does it frighten me as it did then.

You mention another long reply (other than your 2 posts above) and it's not on the forum (right now only 2 posts are shown as existing. So it looks as though you have a draft somewhere that's not been sent and may now be lost!

Barbara, @rebrascora, gave some great comments and I would wholly endorse that you will benefit by amending your diagnosis to T3c. You are as if T1, but without the autoimmune vulnerability. Your T2 former status is relevant in that, if originally properly diagnosed, you have rather more insulin resistance than those folk who don't enjoy the wonders of having diabetes. That means your insulin dosing might well be much greater than, say, mine. This is a useful "lesson": we are all different and with D that is so true. What works for one person may be very different for someone else.

Early on after my Whipples I was really struggling. My surgery was in an Oxford Hospital, I lived in Bucks and my DSN was from a Bucks Hospital. I was discharged from Oxford with a T1 diagnosis and I had no idea that T3c existed. But I wasn't T1 and while I was wholly insulin dependent my lack of other pancreatic hormones, such as Glucagon and Somostatin were just not recognised as a difficulty by either my GP nor (most surprisingly) my DSN. There was full awareness that I had no digestive enzymes and Creon was essential. But no awareness that I can't naturally produce vitamins A, D, E and K. I even reached a point where my normally bright and helpful GP, no doubt under pressure from the accountants somewhere above her, decide (aided and abetted by my DSN) to seriously curtail my test strips. I was neither consulted nor advised of this decision and found out when my chemist didn't provide them. I then had to make my robust case to get that stupid decision amended. There simply was no understanding of how much consequence there was to having no panc'y. Lockdown didn't help, GP behind a locked door and several layers of Receptionists et al. Subsequently I've asked various GPs and Nurses about their understanding of T3c to confirm it is almost non-existent.

However, the "as if T1" diagnosis does keep you firmly within the higher level of care that NICE Guidance (NG28) provides, rather than the less helpful guidance to GPs for T2.

I only got CGM after 12 months (somewhat as a result of the curtailment of test strips) and that has been a game changer. Do you have CGM such as Libre 2+ or Dexcom One+?

My salvation during that 1st year was Gary Scheiner's book "Think Like a Pancreas". He is a US citizen, with a relaxed chatty style of writing and over 20 years experience as a T1 himself. He uses US units of measurement but always provides our European units alongside (so helpful). Early on Scheiner tells us that "Diabetes is Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory". That is so true: then and now. Just knowing and reminding yourself of that is, in itself, a great help: when some response to food or insulin isn't working how you've been led to expect - stay calm, it's part of the D is Contradictory; when the carb counting doesn't work - its the D being complicated; when you despair about what to do next - it's the D is Complicated.

Meanwhile, this Forum is a great place for moral support; with centuries of accumulated experience about managing one's D with tips and tricks or workarounds for almost everything. People here understand, yet the overall moderation of the site prevents anyone from trying to dictate what you should do. So ask questions, any question, we've all been in your position at some earlier point. No question is stupid.

Did your surgical team mention internal scar tissue? It was on my pre-op notes but not discussed after surgery and I wish it had been. I was so busy with managing (badly) my D and having Chemotherapy, that scar tissue seemed wholly irrelevant - until it caught a bit of my intestine , blocked my colon and necessitated further surgery reopening my now fully helped visible scar! I wish I'd been aware of that risk and not overdone my physical recovery exercising; too much lifting, stretching etc!

Once again Welcome. I've been where you are now some 4 years ago. Your D is challenging, but manageable and that process really does get easier with time.
Thank-you so much for ur reply...cd u confirm u have received this message as I don't see another couple of messages I have sent..
 
I can see your message to Proud To Be Erratic, @cherryvalley that you posted 8 mins ago. Are you sure you’re pressing the Post Reply tab and typing in the right place?
 
Thk you I'm sending this..hopefully you get it as I think I might have hit the wrong reply before
Yes, this has arrived safely too. Hopefully you will get more confident of how it works soon.
 
I can also confirm, @cherryvalley, that I've just seen your response at #15 and I pressed the "like" button as my way (and the way of many of us) of letting you know I've seen your post. I've been thoroughly distracted most of today, hence my slow response.

Incidentally until I joined this Forum, some 4 years ago, I'd never participated in any sort of social media, let alone a Forum. So you learn as you go about what to press and how it all works. You will often also find out a tiny bit more about someone who has replied to you by clicking on their name or "avatar" and a box will appear with whatever info is being shared. A 2nd click anywhere else on the screen will make that box disappear. Don't be afraid of exploring anywhere in the Forum sections; everything you discover can't be altered or spoilt by you making some sort of wrong action. Essentially it's all readable and helpful, often amusing and relevant to someone else.

One question, still, do you have any form of Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM)? [Eg Libre 2+ or Dexcom One+].
Good luck.
 
Hello again...Thank-you for replying once again..I have a Libre 2 which I find very helpful as I check my bs regularly which I'm told I shouldn't be but my confidence is not fully there as I like to know how things stand. My hi glucose alarm is set at 17 and has just gone off..too many carbs for dinner !! I drink water and move about to try and lower this but I find at this time of the evening I rely on getting into a shower and going to bed seems to be the best idea. Problem is my bs can then go low in the morning. I'm not at a stage where I calculate my own insulin.
 
Hello again...Thank-you for replying once again..I have a Libre 2 which I find very helpful as I check my bs regularly which I'm told I shouldn't be but my confidence is not fully there as I like to know how things stand.
Great you have a Libre.

I simply don't understand why anyone says you shouldn't check your Blood Glucose (BG) as frequently as you want from your Libre. I can understand if a T2 was being advised to not overdo finger pricking, but for someone without a Pancreas that doesn't make sense to me. It's like telling someone you are allowed to drive, but don't look at your speedometer! The tech is provided to help you better manage your BG and thus live a more comfortable life. I might come back to this later on, but it's late now and I have an early start tomorrow.
My hi glucose alarm is set at 17 and has just gone off..too many carbs for dinner !!
I understand that scenario; however 17 is rather high for such an alarm. The principle is to let the CGM alert you to when you are getting low and equally when you are going high and your longer term goal is to get to between 4 and 10. This is referred to as being In Range; and 70% Time In Range (TIR) is considered excellent. To at least help you manage your expectations don't panic because you haven't got there yet ..... this takes time.

Regarding too many carbs for dinner the beauty of having CGM is that you can get a sense, pretty quickly, about how any single meal is affecting your BG and clearly tonight's dinner was not ideal. The simple solution (for now) would be to eat less carbs; but the better longer term solution is to master the carb counting then take enough bolus (=rapid = your NovoRapid) insulin to match the carbs you'd like to eat.

If your high alarm was, say, 12 rather than 17 you would steadily be managing yourself towards that goal of being below 10!
I drink water and move about to try and lower this
Drinking water is good, keeping yourself fully hydrated is always a good thing. Your Libre sensor is actually measuring the fluid under your skin, rather than measuring the glucose in your actual blood. If you are a bit dehydrated, then it is quite possible that your brain will cleverly draw water from wherever it can, including from your interstitial fluid, to maintain an optimum level of hydration in itself and other vital organs. Once the water content, or level of hydration, of your interstitial fluid is reduced then the glucose contration in your interstitial fluid is increased and your sensor readings are potentially compromised.

Have you been told that any CGM readings below 4 and above 10 ought to be checked (verified) by taking a finger prick reading? Have you been told that there are some limitations with CGM? These limitations don't mean the devices are useless, far from that. But there is great benefit in understanding when CGM readings are at their best and when they can mislead you. ["Diabetes is Complicated"; Gary Scheiner]

Exercise or any activity after a meal can be a great help, particularly if you ate noticeably too high. Conversely if after eating you remain a bit low, then I take note of what my CGM is telling me and blatantly avoid getting active straightaway.
but I find at this time of the evening I rely on getting into a shower and going to bed seems to be the best idea.
Some people find that a hot shower can encourage their body to reduce their natural insulin resistance, then the insulin they have on board goes further and brings their BG down, even into a mild hypo state. But not everyone finds this happens [we are all different].
Problem is my bs can then go low in the morning.
If this is a repeating trend of going to sleep high and waking low, then my interpretation would be that your basal (= slower, = your Lantus) is simply too much. In general terms any bolus (= your NovoRapid) should dissipate in 4-5 hrs and no longer be having any effect on any slower digesting foods. So 4 or 5 hrs after dinner you only have background Lantus insulin helping you get through the night. In practice your brain can be at its busiest in the middle of the night and can stimulate other hormones, such as adrenaline and cortisol, to routinely cause your liver to release glucose into your blood and raise your BG. This should be compensated for by your background (Lantus) insulin and overall keep you steady through the night. But if there is a pattern of regularly getting lowered BG during the night, then I would suspect my basal insulin.

Do you have a DSN you can consult to clarify if your Lantus is too much?
I'm not at a stage where I calculate my own insulin.
I can only encourage you to make a priority of learning to carb count. Until then you will have to "put the cart before the horse" and make your meals match the bolus doses you have been told to take for each meal time. This can be workable, but is far from ideal. I used the carb counting instructions that I found in Gary Scheiner's book and progressed from there.

Has anyone told you about the Carbs and Cals book, which provides details of many commonly found individual food items as well as frequently eaten meals, such as shepherd's pie. What assistance has been offered so far to help you become proficient at carb counting?

All for tonight. I might be very busy tomorrow to look at much on this Forum, other than a superficial check.
 
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