Type 3 Diabetes

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JenniCol

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Type 3c
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Hi everyone,
I have been diagnosed with Neuroendocrine cancer and an extra bonus has been to be diagnosed as diabetic. I am wearing a LibreLink device and it is a mixed blessing as it means I am constantly aware of my blood sugar going high (up to 18) and lows (below 3). I am on oral chemo and eating is a challenge, exacerbated by trying to control my diabetes. I awaiting referral to a Diabetes specialist at the hospital to get expert advice. I am not taking any meds at the moment. Can anyone identify with my situation and offer any advice? Where is the best place to get ideas for low carb meals?
Best wishes to all who read my message.
Jenni
 
Hi Jenni,
So sorry to hear about your prognosis and I know there are others on here who have been on a similar journey to yourself and are in a better position to advise you.
You have made an important first step in reaching out here and gradually you will learn more about how your body reacts to various foods etc and you will find that the Libre will prove very helpful in managing your diabetes.
Have you had surgery on your Pancreas which has led to the diabetes and are you on Creon.
It is always helpful to give as much info/ background as you are happy to give so that people can offer tekevant advice and support.
Most people describe the initial diabetes diagnosis as overwhelming but you have already experienced a much more traumatic diagnosis but appreciate having both poses additional challenges.
Is your referral from your GP as yes they generally are more proficient at dealing with Type 2 rather than Type 1 ( 3c has more in common with T1 just the different cause and possible additional challenges like unable to produce Glucagon which can make your diabetes more brittle).
Anyway wishing you the very best for the future
 
Hi everyone,
I have been diagnosed with Neuroendocrine cancer and an extra bonus has been to be diagnosed as diabetic. I am wearing a LibreLink device and it is a mixed blessing as it means I am constantly aware of my blood sugar going high (up to 18) and lows (below 3). I am on oral chemo and eating is a challenge, exacerbated by trying to control my diabetes. I awaiting referral to a Diabetes specialist at the hospital to get expert advice. I am not taking any meds at the moment. Can anyone identify with my situation and offer any advice? Where is the best place to get ideas for low carb meals?
Best wishes to all who read my message.
Jenni
As you are not on any diabetic meds then you should find recipes and meal plans in this link as well as some good principals for following a low carb but no NO carb regime. You may have to pick and choose if you are struggling to eat but concentrate on protein and healthy fats.
When you say struggling to eat is that because you don't feel hungry or a physical problem in which case soups and yoghurts can be helpful.
 
Hi Wendal,
Thank you for your reply. I have not had surgery on my pancreas. I do take creon. The Neuroendocrine specialist team have not taken much interest in my diabetes - something I hope to correct. Being on chemo means eating is difficult due to taste changes, and trying to eat the right foods make it harder to plan meals. I was not aware that Type 3c diabetes is more akin to Type 1, means more for me to get my head around. My GP surgery were helpful initially but now say I must go through the NET specialists. Are you aware of any tests that the hospital could do to confirm that this is type 3c.
Any information you can share is greatly appreciated.
 
Hi Wendal,
Thank you for your reply. I have not had surgery on my pancreas. I do take creon. The Neuroendocrine specialist team have not taken much interest in my diabetes - something I hope to correct. Being on chemo means eating is difficult due to taste changes, and trying to eat the right foods make it harder to plan meals. I was not aware that Type 3c diabetes is more akin to Type 1, means more for me to get my head around. My GP surgery were helpful initially but now say I must go through the NET specialists. Are you aware of any tests that the hospital could do to confirm that this is type 3c.
Any information you can share is greatly appreciated.
This is a link to the main DUK site about 3c. https://www.diabetes.org.uk/diabetes-the-basics/type-3c-diabetes
 
Hi Jenni,
Leadinglights has provided an excellent link to find out more about 3c.
I distinguish between the 2 types in maybe a slightly different way to others so I see Type 1 as being an insulin deficiency so essentially you need exogenous insulin as your Pancreas simply is not producing any or in such low quantities that you become hyperglycaemic.Therefore you normally require insulin therapy in some form.
Whereas I see Type 2 as being an insulin resistance hence needs to be treated differently from a medication point of view.
Type 1 is normally as a result of an auto immune reason whereas 3c is normally accorded with damage or surgery to the Pancreas but the resulting therapy is normally the same in terms of treating the diabetes aspect.
So the diagnosis of 3c is normally arrived at via history/ scans etc although I think you can do a C Peptide test that will tell you how much insulin you are producing and that can be added to the picture.
Pancreatic surgery so removal of all or part of the Pancreas can readily be associated with the development of 3c whilst mine was the result of necrosis of my exocrine cells due a severe AP attack and the diabetes developed 18 months after my attack but can be a much longer period of time before it develops.
As I say a few on here have been through a cancer diagnosis and will have a much better appreciation of your situation.
Many GPs may not have heard of 3c and several seem to presume that any diabetes that develops in later life is Type 2 rather than investigate for possible Type 1.
The fact you have been referred to a DSN at hospital or in the community is a great step and not surprising your endocrine team are focused more on the cancer than the diabetes.
VBW
 
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Welcome to the forum @JenniCol

So sorry to hear about your cancer diagnosis, and the added bonus(?) of a diagnosis with diabetes o_O

We have a few members with type 3c from various means, including full or partial pancreatic surgeries, and pancreatitis.

I’ll tag-in @eggyg @Proud to be erratic @soupdragon ; and also @martindt1606 who has experience of neuroendocrine cancer
 
Hi Jenni and welcome from me too.

Really sorry to hear that you are facing such challenging circumstances with your health and that the cancer has lead to diabetes. Am I correct in thinking that you have lesions or a tumour in/on your pancreas from the cancer since you are diabetic and need Creon. I believe. I believe Neuroendocrine cancer can affect various organs, not specifically the pancreas, but clearly you must have problems in that area and I am sure that is enough to put you in the Type 3c category without any other tests.
Some Type 3c diabetics can manage for months or even years on oral Type 2 meds and dietary changes, but if it isn't possible to maintain reasonable BG levels through those options, then insulin is required.
You mention that you have Libre and that your levels have occasionally dipped down into the 3s but are mostly high. How did you feel when levels were low? The reason I ask is that Libre and other similar devices are prone to compression lows. These occur when significant pressure is applied to the sensor, usually if you lie on it in your sleep but also potentially lead against something with your body weight for any significant length of time ie maybe 20 mins, the sensor will then indicate that your levels are dropping into a hypo when they are not. Usually you will see your levels rebound on the graph back to where they started from or often slightly higher and then settle back to the previous level. It is important to double check any low readings like this with a finger prick and BG meter if you don't feel hypo. Just thought I had better mention that as you could confuse a consultant by saying you have had a hypo or two when you haven't and that info might discourage them from giving you insulin incase it caused further hypos. Libre is a great biut of kit but you have to understand it's limitations and compression lows do happen particularly to people new to Libre who haven't got used to it and know not to lie on it or to be aware that it records false lows when you do lie on it.

I believe that @Proud to be erratic had his pancreas removed due to pancreatic cancer but I am guessing that your situation is slightly different (not least because you still have yours) but with some similarities, like chemo, so hopefully he will be able to offer some words of wisdom. Another member who is Type 3c @zippyjojo has just started on insulin after managing with diet and oral meds for quite a while, so she may be able to give you some insight between the two treatments. Hope you manage to get a joined up treatment plan sorted and wishing the very best of luck with your health battles. Knowledge is power with diabetes and I am sure it is the same with cancer, so the more you can learn about it and what is available to help you and how it works, the better placed you are to push for the right treatment and support.
 
Hi Jenni,
Sorry to hear of your diagnosis, I wish you well for the future.
I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a year or so ago followed by a total pancreatectomy and subsequent chemotherapy. Chemotherapy is horrible isn't it? Then the Creon/diarrhoea delight! Add to this nausea, complete exhaustion, neuropathy and sores in your mouth so it hurts to eat: not nice at all!! Sadly I remember it well, I do not envy you.
However there is hope! Given the correct advice you can control your glucose and even get your appetite back and gain weight. You have to watch your carbs but hopefully you have been encouraged to focus on high protein, high fat diet and loads of Creon.
I remember when I first started using Libre system I couldn't believe the roller-coaster glucose levels that I had not identified when only using finger prick testing several times a day. In time you will grown to love your Libre system. For the moment just do your best: it is a steep learning curve. Ask whoever gave you the Libre device to advise on it's use.
I wonder if you could approach a Diabetes Specialist Nurse or dietician to advise you. They are usually very approachable and I still find them very helpful to this day. I find you have to push a little to get answers but your questions to them or specialists should not go unanswered, do not be afraid to ask. You are going through a lot and are bound to have lots of questions, none of which are silly or unworthy, you just don't know the answer.
Macmillian are an excellent source of advice and understanding too, try them.
There are lots of low carb recipes on this website and a wealth of well informed, kind people here to support you as best they can.
Best wishes, Chris
PS ; now Type 3c but don't know how to change my status on this site.
 
Hi Jenni

So sorry to read about all that you are coping with, but pleased that you have found the forum, where you can tap into a wealth of experience, and lots of support.

Keep the questions coming and let us know how you get on.
 
Welcome @JenniCol
I'm Type 3c following severe pancreatitis
I've been treated with insulin, as if Type 1, from the start.
You are managing a lot at the moment with the chemo and blood glucose. I hope you can get some more support from your team soon.
 
Hi Jenni,
Sorry to hear of your diagnosis, I wish you well for the future.
I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer a year or so ago followed by a total pancreatectomy and subsequent chemotherapy. Chemotherapy is horrible isn't it? Then the Creon/diarrhoea delight! Add to this nausea, complete exhaustion, neuropathy and sores in your mouth so it hurts to eat: not nice at all!! Sadly I remember it well, I do not envy you.
However there is hope! Given the correct advice you can control your glucose and even get your appetite back and gain weight. You have to watch your carbs but hopefully you have been encouraged to focus on high protein, high fat diet and loads of Creon.
I remember when I first started using Libre system I couldn't believe the roller-coaster glucose levels that I had not identified when only using finger prick testing several times a day. In time you will grown to love your Libre system. For the moment just do your best: it is a steep learning curve. Ask whoever gave you the Libre device to advise on it's use.
I wonder if you could approach a Diabetes Specialist Nurse or dietician to advise you. They are usually very approachable and I still find them very helpful to this day. I find you have to push a little to get answers but your questions to them or specialists should not go unanswered, do not be afraid to ask. You are going through a lot and are bound to have lots of questions, none of which are silly or unworthy, you just don't know the answer.
Macmillian are an excellent source of advice and understanding too, try them.
There are lots of low carb recipes on this website and a wealth of well informed, kind people here to support you as best they can.
Best wishes, Chris
PS ; now Type 3c but don't know how to change my status on this site.
Hi, @Chris88 , you can change your relationship by clicking on your name, going to account details and scrolling down. I have taken a couple of screenshots to show you. Remember to save the changes.
 

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Hi everyone,
I have been diagnosed with Neuroendocrine cancer and an extra bonus has been to be diagnosed as diabetic. I am wearing a LibreLink device and it is a mixed blessing as it means I am constantly aware of my blood sugar going high (up to 18) and lows (below 3). I am on oral chemo and eating is a challenge, exacerbated by trying to control my diabetes. I awaiting referral to a Diabetes specialist at the hospital to get expert advice. I am not taking any meds at the moment. Can anyone identify with my situation and offer any advice? Where is the best place to get ideas for low carb meals?
Best wishes to all who read my message.
Jenni
hi Jenni don't like making assumptions - is your primary a PNET?
 
Hello @JenniCol,

Welcome also from me to what must feel a confusing and complicated extra to your allready most difficult world.

Everything below is telling you about my experiences and does not come from any sort of medical background. It just reflects stuff I've had to learn about to make my life more sensible (I'm a big believer that "Knowledge Dispels Fear").

I personally came to the Oncology business in Nov 2019 when jaundice struck me, almost overnight, from a blocked bile duct as a tumour was trying to swallow my pancreas. [My late brother had endured cancer of the oesophagus a few yrs before and got through that; and my sister has been in almost permanent chemo treatment for 5 years from bowel cancer that was not picked up by her GP in a timely manner until she reached stage 4 - but is now fianally showing remission for over 9 months.] My Pancreatic Cancer was diagnosed (apparently it did not need a formal confirmation - it just was PC) and surgery in Feb 20 became a total pancreatectomy which abruptly left me insulin dependent. I was discharged with a written diagnosis of Type 1 - but of course I'm actually T3c from damage to my pancreas and I don't have the autoimmune conditions of a T1 diagnosis.

After some 3 months recovering from my surgery I started Adjuvant chemo - nominal 6+ hr sessions fortnightly receiving a toxic cocktail intravenously and then on a nifty so-called pump (a plastic pressurised bottle) receiving more cocktail over the next 3 days. I did NOT cope well with this and had some pretty degrading side effects; this abruptly came to an end when I realised I was rapidly losing sensation in my feet (a legacy problem from "frost-nip" after skiing 15 yrs previously). Since then I have been closely monitored by the Oncology Department and I'm feeling truly well and scans showing all clear.

One Diabetes related issue was the steroids that I was prescribed causing 3 or 4 days with very high BG. This was tricky because at this time I had not been prescribed CGM and was finger-pricking only. Also my BG management was generally really poor and I was on what we sometimes described as "the roller coaster" from very low to very high and back again - barely touching any middle ground!

Since you are currently not on any Diabetes medication and you already have Libre 2 I can see that you are caught by getting possible excess of BG info from your sensor, yet no "tools" to help you deal with this. Without any meds your risk of going too low is very slim and more likely you will be high (above 14) far more than you feel good about and nor is it good for you!

What I couldn't glean from your postings is when you started with your oral chemo and whether there is a tentative timescale for how long that will go on. Nor did I glean when you were diagnosed as diabetic and who gave that diagnosis of T3c (but I'm guessing that was Hospital led)?

I think you now already know that T3c does not automatically mean you are or will become insulin dependent. It is quite likely - but only when your chemo has ended will any pancreatic damage be properly evident. The tests to confirm T3c are very varied, but can include ultrasound scans of your pancreas; but in the end it seems to be a judgement by Consultants from clinical symptoms that you present and no doubt supplemented from your Libre data over time.

For now you seem to be something of a spectator to your BG behaviour. I'm not sure (I just don't know) if you should try to obscure BG responses by adopting a very low carb diet and risk confusing present and future wrestling with what may well be a permanent and enduring diabetic condition. I would suggest you ask about this. It may well be more sensible to have a background (basal) insulin to help you through the chemo phase; this can be stopped if appropriate.

I'm going to pause here - you are probably already enjoying information overload. Do feel free to ask about anything that you don't understand diabetes wise. Your cancer will rightly take precedence by your health care team. I should say that even though I am now extremely well served my my Hospital based Diabetes Team my Oncologist always pleasantly tells me that they consider they still have the overall view of my collection of medical conditions!
 
Hello @JenniCol,

Welcome also from me to what must feel a confusing and complicated extra to your allready most difficult world.

Everything below is telling you about my experiences and does not come from any sort of medical background. It just reflects stuff I've had to learn about to make my life more sensible (I'm a big believer that "Knowledge Dispels Fear").

I personally came to the Oncology business in Nov 2019 when jaundice struck me, almost overnight, from a blocked bile duct as a tumour was trying to swallow my pancreas. [My late brother had endured cancer of the oesophagus a few yrs before and got through that; and my sister has been in almost permanent chemo treatment for 5 years from bowel cancer that was not picked up by her GP in a timely manner until she reached stage 4 - but is now fianally showing remission for over 9 months.] My Pancreatic Cancer was diagnosed (apparently it did not need a formal confirmation - it just was PC) and surgery in Feb 20 became a total pancreatectomy which abruptly left me insulin dependent. I was discharged with a written diagnosis of Type 1 - but of course I'm actually T3c from damage to my pancreas and I don't have the autoimmune conditions of a T1 diagnosis.

After some 3 months recovering from my surgery I started Adjuvant chemo - nominal 6+ hr sessions fortnightly receiving a toxic cocktail intravenously and then on a nifty so-called pump (a plastic pressurised bottle) receiving more cocktail over the next 3 days. I did NOT cope well with this and had some pretty degrading side effects; this abruptly came to an end when I realised I was rapidly losing sensation in my feet (a legacy problem from "frost-nip" after skiing 15 yrs previously). Since then I have been closely monitored by the Oncology Department and I'm feeling truly well and scans showing all clear.

One Diabetes related issue was the steroids that I was prescribed causing 3 or 4 days with very high BG. This was tricky because at this time I had not been prescribed CGM and was finger-pricking only. Also my BG management was generally really poor and I was on what we sometimes described as "the roller coaster" from very low to very high and back again - barely touching any middle ground!

Since you are currently not on any Diabetes medication and you already have Libre 2 I can see that you are caught by getting possible excess of BG info from your sensor, yet no "tools" to help you deal with this. Without any meds your risk of going too low is very slim and more likely you will be high (above 14) far more than you feel good about and nor is it good for you!

What I couldn't glean from your postings is when you started with your oral chemo and whether there is a tentative timescale for how long that will go on. Nor did I glean when you were diagnosed as diabetic and who gave that diagnosis of T3c (but I'm guessing that was Hospital led)?

I think you now already know that T3c does not automatically mean you are or will become insulin dependent. It is quite likely - but only when your chemo has ended will any pancreatic damage be properly evident. The tests to confirm T3c are very varied, but can include ultrasound scans of your pancreas; but in the end it seems to be a judgement by Consultants from clinical symptoms that you present and no doubt supplemented from your Libre data over time.

For now you seem to be something of a spectator to your BG behaviour. I'm not sure (I just don't know) if you should try to obscure BG responses by adopting a very low carb diet and risk confusing present and future wrestling with what may well be a permanent and enduring diabetic condition. I would suggest you ask about this. It may well be more sensible to have a background (basal) insulin to help you through the chemo phase; this can be stopped if appropriate.

I'm going to pause here - you are probably already enjoying information overload. Do feel free to ask about anything that you don't understand diabetes wise. Your cancer will rightly take precedence by your health care team. I should say that even though I am now extremely well served my my Hospital based Diabetes Team my Oncologist always pleasantly tells me that they consider they still have the overall view of my collection of medical conditions!
Thank you for all your help
 
hi Jenni don't like making assumptions - is your primary a PNET?
I have unknown primary. I have got an appointment on Friday and hope to get more help. I am so grateful for the postings here - I’ve learnt a lot
 
Hi Jenni and welcome from me too.

Really sorry to hear that you are facing such challenging circumstances with your health and that the cancer has lead to diabetes. Am I correct in thinking that you have lesions or a tumour in/on your pancreas from the cancer since you are diabetic and need Creon. I believe. I believe Neuroendocrine cancer can affect various organs, not specifically the pancreas, but clearly you must have problems in that area and I am sure that is enough to put you in the Type 3c category without any other tests.
Some Type 3c diabetics can manage for months or even years on oral Type 2 meds and dietary changes, but if it isn't possible to maintain reasonable BG levels through those options, then insulin is required.
You mention that you have Libre and that your levels have occasionally dipped down into the 3s but are mostly high. How did you feel when levels were low? The reason I ask is that Libre and other similar devices are prone to compression lows. These occur when significant pressure is applied to the sensor, usually if you lie on it in your sleep but also potentially lead against something with your body weight for any significant length of time ie maybe 20 mins, the sensor will then indicate that your levels are dropping into a hypo when they are not. Usually you will see your levels rebound on the graph back to where they started from or often slightly higher and then settle back to the previous level. It is important to double check any low readings like this with a finger prick and BG meter if you don't feel hypo. Just thought I had better mention that as you could confuse a consultant by saying you have had a hypo or two when you haven't and that info might discourage them from giving you insulin incase it caused further hypos. Libre is a great biut of kit but you have to understand it's limitations and compression lows do happen particularly to people new to Libre who haven't got used to it and know not to lie on it or to be aware that it records false lows when you do lie on it.

I believe that @Proud to be erratic had his pancreas removed due to pancreatic cancer but I am guessing that your situation is slightly different (not least because you still have yours) but with some similarities, like chemo, so hopefully he will be able to offer some words of wisdom. Another member who is Type 3c @zippyjojo has just started on insulin after managing with diet and oral meds for quite a while, so she may be able to give you some insight between the two treatments. Hope you manage to get a joined up treatment plan sorted and wishing the very best of luck with your health battles. Knowledge is power with diabetes and I am sure it is the same with cancer, so the more you can learn about it and what is available to help you and how it works, the better placed you are to push for the right treatment and support.
I will check if my lows could be compression lows.
 
I have unknown primary. I have got an appointment on Friday and hope to get more help. I am so grateful for the postings here - I’ve learnt a lot
JenniCol - I had a PNET for 8 years before they removed the Pancreas. Luckily i had no diabetes issues during this time. Since the Total Pancreatectomy in 2010 I have lived as though I was Type 1 following graduation from a DAFNE course - basically I eat what I want when i want - as long as I correctly dose the CREON and insulin its not an issue. As I am not a natural diabetic low carb diets do not work for me - especially now as i have 0 insulin or glucogen response. If you haven't done so already search out Neuroendocrine Cancer UK on the net and Facebook. I didn't find them until 2018 (after 17 years of living with Neuroendocrine cancer) they have been a great source of information especially when the liver metastasis appeared. Hope the appointment provided some clarity.
 
PS ; now Type 3c but don't know how to change my status on this site.

I’ve made that small change for you Chris 🙂
 
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