Type 2 management issues

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notmez

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
Hey up hope you're all doing well.

I've been pretty good at managing my type 2 for a while, managed to get my hba1c from 80s to 40s last year but I've noticed a larger and consistent increase in my BG on finger tests.

I've basically noticed a slow and steady increase to the point now I'm waking up at 8-9 and keeping consistently much higher than I was previously throughout the day.

in terms of food, I haven't really made any bad choices or changes but I'm eating smaller portion in the main part of my meal and more salad, greens and veg.

At one point the amount of exercise had dropped when I wasn't well but I'm back to normal doing as much if not more for several weeks.

I'm struggling to work out why numbers are getting worse instead of better or the same.

I've got my annual review in a month or two and I'll get to ask a number of questions there but thought it's worth getting thoughts from you guys.
 
Hey up hope you're all doing well.

I've been pretty good at managing my type 2 for a while, managed to get my hba1c from 80s to 40s last year but I've noticed a larger and consistent increase in my BG on finger tests.

I've basically noticed a slow and steady increase to the point now I'm waking up at 8-9 and keeping consistently much higher than I was previously throughout the day.

in terms of food, I haven't really made any bad choices or changes but I'm eating smaller portion in the main part of my meal and more salad, greens and veg.

At one point the amount of exercise had dropped when I wasn't well but I'm back to normal doing as much if not more for several weeks.

I'm struggling to work out why numbers are getting worse instead of better or the same.

I've got my annual review in a month or two and I'll get to ask a number of questions there but thought it's worth getting thoughts from you guys.
It is quite easy for carb creep to occur but also your tolerance to the carbs you are having changes so people need to re-evaluate their menu.
You obviously have a monitor so you could do some strategic testing of your meals to see if anything is now not being tolerated as well as it was before.
Test before you eat and after 2 hours and see if the increase is no more than 2-3mmol/l if so then you need to look at what you are eating or the portions of the high carb foods.
What would be a typical day's menu.
 
Sorry. This reply got a lot longer than expected.
It is quite easy for carb creep to occur but also your tolerance to the carbs you are having changes so people need to re-evaluate their menu.
I have a monitor yes and I haven't noticed any carb creep but I guess my tolerance has changed noticed in Feb/march and that's the reason for smaller portions over a number of weeks march and april, I've been bulking out my meals with salad/veg.

8.30 Breakfast Previous. 1-2 Weetabix (16-32g) or porridge (30g) with teaspoon of chocolate and raspberries

Now: small wrap (20g) with 1 scrambled egg usually bulked out with 1 or 2 florets of cauliflower or broccoli or a couple of mushrooms

12-1 Lunch is usually a salad with one of
tempeh / tofu / chickpeas/ salmon.
If it's cold I'll add some broccoli or cauliflower to the panini press and cook that a bit to add some hot veg to the salad.

If not a salad it'll be home made soups, sometimes tinned, no wraps or bread, (previously a small wrap or 1 slice of bread)

Snack around 3pm : carrot celery pepper with cheese and a handful of popcorn. - literally one fist full of popped corn to add the need for a salty crunch. Or peanuts

(Previously the same veg but with crackers or crisps instead of popcorn) - crisps I went from daily to when I was diagnosed to 2/3x a week and now I'm not having any unless I buy a meal deal for lunch 1 or 2x a month when I don't WFH.

Evening meal 7/7.30
Mostly the same as I have been for the past year just smaller amounts.

Indian food, mostly vegetarian or vegan. Now a smaller portions of rice than I have been having for months.. Now added salad to fill about 1/4 of the plate.

If I make fish, it'll be baked with roast veg.
If I get a takeaway it'll last 3 meals instead of 1 or 2 and I add salad to reduce the portions.

No after dinner snacks any more unless I have a bit of yogurt with a couple of frozen raspberries not been doing that recently either.

I stopped testing before and after every meal when it got stable but have started again,

The past week has been
morning wake up at 8-9
Treadmill
2h after breakfast 6-7

Before lunch 7-9
Treadmill
2h after lunch 7-8 (this is when I have a snack)

Treadmill
Before dinner 5-9
2h after 6-8

I thought the raised numbers near lunch might have been drinks but for the last 2+ weeks I've stopped drinking squash and only have water at my desk. No sugar at all in my coffee and less than 1 coffee a day recently.

I'm on the treadmill at my standing desk for half hour during morning meetings. 1km after lunch meetings. Usually 2km before the end of the day meetings.
If I go out for a walk during lunch I skip the treadmill after lunch and only use it again at the end of the work day. Treadmill is really dependent on the calendar and if the meeting is internal or external, 3-4.5 km/p hour speed dependant on if I'm listening or presenting and talking but I try to get at least 30-60 mins each day.
 
Sorry. This reply got a lot longer than expected.

I have a monitor yes and I haven't noticed any carb creep but I guess my tolerance has changed noticed in Feb/march and that's the reason for smaller portions over a number of weeks march and april, I've been bulking out my meals with salad/veg.

8.30 Breakfast Previous. 1-2 Weetabix (16-32g) or porridge (30g) with teaspoon of chocolate and raspberries

Now: small wrap (20g) with 1 scrambled egg usually bulked out with 1 or 2 florets of cauliflower or broccoli or a couple of mushrooms

12-1 Lunch is usually a salad with one of
tempeh / tofu / chickpeas/ salmon.
If it's cold I'll add some broccoli or cauliflower to the panini press and cook that a bit to add some hot veg to the salad.

If not a salad it'll be home made soups, sometimes tinned, no wraps or bread, (previously a small wrap or 1 slice of bread)

Snack around 3pm : carrot celery pepper with cheese and a handful of popcorn. - literally one fist full of popped corn to add the need for a salty crunch. Or peanuts

(Previously the same veg but with crackers or crisps instead of popcorn) - crisps I went from daily to when I was diagnosed to 2/3x a week and now I'm not having any unless I buy a meal deal for lunch 1 or 2x a month when I don't WFH.

Evening meal 7/7.30
Mostly the same as I have been for the past year just smaller amounts.

Indian food, mostly vegetarian or vegan. Now a smaller portions of rice than I have been having for months.. Now added salad to fill about 1/4 of the plate.

If I make fish, it'll be baked with roast veg.
If I get a takeaway it'll last 3 meals instead of 1 or 2 and I add salad to reduce the portions.

No after dinner snacks any more unless I have a bit of yogurt with a couple of frozen raspberries not been doing that recently either.

I stopped testing before and after every meal when it got stable but have started again,

The past week has been
morning wake up at 8-9
Treadmill
2h after breakfast 6-7

Before lunch 7-9
Treadmill
2h after lunch 7-8 (this is when I have a snack)

Treadmill
Before dinner 5-9
2h after 6-8

I thought the raised numbers near lunch might have been drinks but for the last 2+ weeks I've stopped drinking squash and only have water at my desk. No sugar at all in my coffee and less than 1 coffee a day recently.

I'm on the treadmill at my standing desk for half hour during morning meetings. 1km after lunch meetings. Usually 2km before the end of the day meetings.
If I go out for a walk during lunch I skip the treadmill after lunch and only use it again at the end of the work day. Treadmill is really dependent on the calendar and if the meeting is internal or external, 3-4.5 km/p hour speed dependant on if I'm listening or presenting and talking but I try to get at least 30-60 mins each day.
Your post meal readings look good but it seems that your pre meal and waking readings are higher than you would expect given your post meal ones. Keeping up with what you are going should start to see a trend downwards.
I wonder if it is the between meal snacks that are pushing up your premeal readings, could you see what happens without the snacks?
 
I must say your diet seems pretty good. Just a few tweaks you might like to consider. Popcorn is quite high in carbs, but 25gm chopped mixed nuts is just 2.6gm carbs and will give you the crunch. Cauliflower rice instead of ordinary rice, or a mixture of both. Make omelette wraps instead of wheat ones. Stick to home made soup rather than tinned. (I make batches and freeze them in old ice cream containers).
But keep an eye on your measurements (or keep a record) in preparation for your next HbA1c.
 
Your post meal readings look good but it seems that your pre meal and waking readings are higher than you would expect given your post meal ones. Keeping up with what you are going should start to see a trend downwards.
I wonder if it is the between meal snacks that are pushing up your premeal readings, could you see what happens without the snacks?

I've tried the snacks without the popcorn or without crackers and for a few days only had like a stalk of celery and cream cheese and/or some peanuts, which keeps me going until dinner but didn't make any difference to the numbers.

I was thinking about getting the free trial from freestyle or a dexcom for a few weeks to see what or when things are actually changing
 
I must say your diet seems pretty good. Just a few tweaks you might like to consider. Popcorn is quite high in carbs, but 25gm chopped mixed nuts is just 2.6gm carbs and will give you the crunch. Cauliflower rice instead of ordinary rice, or a mixture of both. Make omelette wraps instead of wheat ones. Stick to home made soup rather than tinned. (I make batches and freeze them in old ice cream containers).
But keep an eye on your measurements (or keep a record) in preparation for your next HbA1c.
I do the same with soups. When I make a pot it lasts 6+ portions in the freezer. We always keep a few soup tins in the pantry for when I need something fast.

Cauliflower rice is strange not a fan but I'd rather just not have any rice which is something I do often enough.

No snacks yesterday after lunch. Broccoli, pakchoi, celery, green beans spinach stir-fried with dry spices. And salad was carrot cucumber onion lettuce and herbs.

Before dinner (6.7) last night at was a fillet of fish with roasted broccoli and salad. (Lettuce cucumber spinach onion parsley) 7.6 after dinner.
This morning I woke up to a 8.9
 
I do the same with soups. When I make a pot it lasts 6+ portions in the freezer. We always keep a few soup tins in the pantry for when I need something fast.

Cauliflower rice is strange not a fan but I'd rather just not have any rice which is something I do often enough.

No snacks yesterday after lunch. Broccoli, pakchoi, celery, green beans spinach stir-fried with dry spices. And salad was carrot cucumber onion lettuce and herbs.

Before dinner (6.7) last night at was a fillet of fish with roasted broccoli and salad. (Lettuce cucumber spinach onion parsley) 7.6 after dinner.
This morning I woke up to a 8.9
Are you testing in bed as some people do seem to be particularly susceptible to Foot on the Floor syndrome when blood glucose shoots up as soon as they get out of bed.
I suppose a free trial of the Libre would help to see what might be going on. Make sure you have a compatible phone.
 
I do the same with soups. When I make a pot it lasts 6+ portions in the freezer. We always keep a few soup tins in the pantry for when I need something fast.

Cauliflower rice is strange not a fan but I'd rather just not have any rice which is something I do often enough.

No snacks yesterday after lunch. Broccoli, pakchoi, celery, green beans spinach stir-fried with dry spices. And salad was carrot cucumber onion lettuce and herbs.

Before dinner (6.7) last night at was a fillet of fish with roasted broccoli and salad. (Lettuce cucumber spinach onion parsley) 7.6 after dinner.
This morning I woke up to a 8.9
I suggest you look up Dawn Phenomenom and see if you think that applies to your early morning level.
 
Disclaimer - I'm no expert in anything and nothing I say should be taken seriously by anyone.

Fasting blood glucose levels, your readings taken first thing in the morning, are entirely set by the liver and the hormones that regulate it. While it is often stated on this forum and elsewhere that lowering your carb intake can bring down fasting BG levels directly there is actually no science to back that up. The opposite in fact - the science says it's all about the liver and the hormones. The carbs you ate yesterday had no effect on your BG when you woke up this morning - they were all digested and metabolised hours before, and practically all the glucose in your blood on waking came from the liver. The liver doesn't remember what you ate yesterday.

In the fasted state a healthy person's blood glucose is regulated as follows:
1: If blood glucose drops too low the pancreas secretes glucagon
2: The liver responds to glucagon by releasing much more glucose into the blood
3: When blood glucose rises a smidge too high the pancreas stops secreting glucagon and secretes insulin
4: Insulin antagonises glucagon - it cancels out its effects
5: The liver responds to insulin by releasing much less glucose into the blood

This cycle repeats over and over, keeping blood glucose levels quite stable, until you eat something. Other hormones also have an effect on the action of insulin or on the liver such as stress hormones, growth hormone, adrenaline etc. which are perhaps responsible for effects like Foot on Floor and Dawn Phenomenon.

In susceptible people, if they have excess fat in their liver that organ can become insulin resistant. That compromises step 5 in the cycle - the liver doesn't switch-off glucose output quickly in response to insulin as it's less sensitive to its effects. This leads to higher fasting blood glucose levels. Reducing fat levels in the liver may improve its insulin sensitivity and resolve the problem. If a low-carb diet or any other diet leads to weight loss and a reduction in liver fat that may do the trick. While a low-carb diet can be highly effective for controlling blood glucose levels after eating it cannot directly lower a person's BG levels below the 'floor' set by the action of the liver, the hormones that govern it, and the liver's sensitivity to those hormones. A low-carb diet only has an effect on fasting BG if it leads to weight loss (which it very often does).

The concept that weight loss leads to a reduction in liver fat which leads to lowered fasting BG levels is well proven at this point - this long interview with Prof Roy Taylor explains the concepts: Link I should mention that I don't trust his Personal Fat Threshold theory but this ideas on weight loss, liver fat and insulin resistance seem sound and well-proven.

The liver pumps out fat constantly into the blood in the form of triglycerides. If rising levels of fat in your liver are the culprit for your rising fasted BG levels then possible solutions are all about making sure less fat enters the liver than exits it over an extended period of time. Significant weight loss will do this if you have the weight to lose. I see from your previous posts that you were diagnosed with a fatty liver and that you have lost weight since diagnosis. Is further significant weight loss possible for you without becoming unhealthily underweight?

Stopping alcohol will help greatly if you drink, as alcohol is converted to fat in the liver. Non Alcoholic Fatty Liver Disease (NAFLD) is strongly associated with low levels of exercise and low skeletal muscle mass, and addressing this further may help. As far as I can make out, extended exercise burns up fat stored in muscle tissue. As the 'fat tank' in muscle tissue empties it soaks more fat up from the bloodstream. Increasing muscle mass increases the size of the 'tank', and exercising as much of that muscle mass as possible regularly and for an extended period of time empties the tank regularly. The effect of doing this might be that muscle tissue will be able to soak up more of the fat you eat, leading to less of it accumulating in the liver. There are numerous studies linking NAFLD with low skeletal muscle mass, and one I found seems to suggest that muscle mass might be at least as important a factor as exercise or obesity: Study Link

Taylor's Personal Fat Threshold theory suggests that if you get below a certain weight and stay there fat will not re-accumulate in the liver - it will stay largely in adipose tissue (fat cells) instead. As I don't trust this theory myself my plan is to lift weights (tiny ones admittedly) and, hopefully, get fit enough to use a rowing machine regularly, as that exercise works a lot of muscle groups. My thinking is that if I address all the risk factors for NAFLD as much as I possibly can then I can maximise the chances that fat won't re-accumulate in my liver and that may keep my fasting BG levels low for as long as I am able to keep exercising. That's the theory, though there's no hard evidence that it will work. I believe it worth the effort though as there are only so many times I can empty out my liver through weight loss before I lose too much weight for that to remain an option.

I hope all that helps. Very best of luck!
 
Sorry to hear your levels are drifting upwards despite all your hard work @notmez

Hope you can find some additional tweaks to make. Or alternatively perhaps enquire whether a little medication might allow you a bit more dietary freedom and flexibility?
 
Sorry to hear your levels are drifting upwards despite all your hard work @notmez

Hope you can find some additional tweaks to make. Or alternatively perhaps enquire whether a little medication might allow you a bit more dietary freedom and flexibility?
I'll see what the next hba1c and annual review looks like but I might have to ask about bumping up to 2 Metformin

I'll look up Dawn Phenomenom. My morning test is usually 5-10 mins after I get out of bed but I can change that if needed, I'll start doing it first thing.


best of luck!
That's for the detailed reply. A lot to take in there I've read it a couple of times already, but the video is interesting - thanks for sharing
 
oats. its oats that have started causing me a bigger problem than they were before.

porridge this morning. 2 hours after breakfast I had gone up to 10.6
 
oats. its oats that have started causing me a bigger problem than they were before.

porridge this morning. 2 hours after breakfast I had gone up to 10.6
Did you weigh out your portion? 100g of oats is in the region of 60g carbohydrate, which would be almost half my daily carb allowance.
 
yes i did.

my normal portion of oats is 35g + 5-6 frozen raspberries and 1 spoon of chocolate flakes
last month this would raise my bg by around 1 or 2 after the 2 hour mark.

today was 25g. + 5 frozen raspberries
today i went from 7 (8.30am) to 10.6 (10.45am)

on a slightly positive note before lunch (1.30pm) i was back to 5.6.

a number of people have mentioned their tolerance changes over time.
i think im going to avoid it for a few weeks and then try again as its by far the most filling breakfast i usually eat.
 
I sometimes get an odd high or low for something that I'm usually fairly consistent with. Never understood why that happens.

I find my regular breakfast of a single Weetabix with a mix of strawberries, raspberries and blueberries, plus a dollop of Greek yogurt, quite filling. I'll sometimes do overnight oats with 20g oats (carb-wise about equal to one Weetabix), frozen summer fruits and Greek yogurt, also quite filling.

Good that you were back to normal before lunch.
 
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I try not to get too hung up on different responses, as I find the same meal is different.

Sometimes the meal you had before affects how your next meal responds.
Sometimes if you're eating low carb, things are a bit slow to react so the next meal might see a bigger response.

I find if I sometimes have oats in the morning, levels are lower for the rest of the day.

There's a daily ebb and flow of changes, based on meals, moods, and other factors.
 
The new problem for me is that I've had a consistent upward trend recently even though I've been reducing carbs and some food so at the moment it's a case of what food tolerance has changed.

I'm thinking oats for now while I add and remove other things. At least until I get it under control
 
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