turning diabetes on it's head

[mcmoby69]

not sure where this should go.but I'm pretty sure it'll get moved to the correct place.

I havent been around for ages. I usually frequent an alternative site. Tbh i dont adhere to the 'cap doffing' society that I find permeating medical websites/forums.

I was DX 2002, T2 went though all the meds, followed docs NHS advice for 6 years and ended up on insulin. Weight went from 16st to 18st. BG never normal. My last 8 years were spent learning as much as I could.

So lots of googling, lying to get into medical webistes to read research papers, speaking to folks with similar opinions and situations.I came to a conclusion a long time ago.
drug companies are not our friends.
They make gazillions of pounds/dollars (whatever currency you like) every year. They get caught out now and again and are made to pay out millions in compensation to individuals. (peanuts compared to their profits)

So, from a business point of view, if you could make £1million pounds from curing a disease, or, £10 billion from treating it, what would you do?
My opinion is that the NHS have been trying to treat a symptom of a disease/illness rather than trying to cure it. To be fair to them, they rely on scientific research and studies data, reliably provided by doctors/scientists paid by the drug companies that provide the medication to treat our disease. So, no conflict of interest there then.

Today we have an unquestioned model of diabetes that is very simple, it is easy to understand. It is simple because it works like this. If the blood sugar goes up, we produce insulin to lower it. If the blood sugar goes down, the body produces less insulin and the sugar level goes up.

This means that, if someone has high blood sugar levels, you hit them with insulin. Has anyone ever questioned why their sugar is up? They say it's because you ate too much, you're overweight blah blah blah.......

So T1's are skinny (allegedly)
All T2's are fat (allegedly)

Two different diseases, both with the same symptoms?

both blamed on the pancreas and insulin. Beta cell destruction in T1's and insulin resistance in T2's. Ah but T2 is self inflicted! Maybe not....... What about the Alpha cells?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_cell

So we are told that a T1 has no beta cells, all destroyed by the body's immune system attacking itself. Do the alpha cells still exist? Well, they must do because something is causing high blood sugar. That cause is Glucogen.

But what about people who have had a pancreatectomy? no alpha or beta cells ergo no high bg's ! job done! nope, alpha cells are also found in the stomach. Producing glucose.

So, my theory that there is a cause for high BG's that can be treated, seems relevant. BG's go high (for whatever reason) and the NHS want to hammer it down with insulin or whatever else. That reason is glucogen production.

Stop that, and BG's will stop rising.

My favourite GP to date is Malcolm Kendrick probably the most forward thinking GP ever

http://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2015/08/04/turning-diabetes-upside-down/

 

[robert@fm]

What about those who have had their stomachs removed as well? How does this hypothesis explain the quite severe problems such people suffer?

I'm sure that if "the answer" were truly something as simple as this, it would have been found long since. 🙄 Surely glucagon is just as vital as insulin to proper metabolic control, and just shutting down either will cause problems; possibly worse ones than doing this is supposed to solve.

You may have a point about the drug companies however, in light of the recent Affreza farce; I think what killed Affreza was the Boulder Pledge (the more heavily something is spammed, the less likely it becomes that anyone with any sense will touch it with a ten-foot pole).

 

[Robin]

The problem I find with Dr Kendrick's article, is that in my own experience, insulin does a lot more than lower glucose levels. It facilitates the glucose to enter the cells to provide fuel for them. When I was undiagnosed, every step felt like wading through treacle, because the muscles weren't being fuelled up. As soon as I started insulin, I had the energy to walk without effort again.

The more I study the human body, the more it seems to me that we don't know very much about the sheer complexity of it, and how things interact, or have several jobs to do. It may be correct that the current glucose/insulin model is over simplistic, but I find Dr Kendrick's stance equally so.

 

[DeusXM]

The problem is though, we can prove fairly easily that high blood sugar is not simply caused by overproduction of glucagon and nothing else.

Give any T1 or T2 a high carbohydrate meal and their blood sugar will rocket up. It's a very simple cause and effect. We also already have treatments that inhibit the release of stored glucose. That's exactly how metformin works - and incidentally, metformin is probably the oldest and cheapest of all anti-diabetic drugs.

I would also strongly question your insinuation about the profit motive here. I don't dispute that for a pharmaceutical company, there's more of an incentive for treatments than cures. But the NHS isn't a for-profit. The inherent purpose of the NHS is to maintain as healthy a population as possible for the lowest possible outlay - because the NHS is really an investment by government for maintaining a productive workforce. So the NHS actively funds cure research because ultimately, a cure will work out as cheaper than lifelong routine care and the cost of treating complications.

So, to recap...yes, there is mileage in the idea that inhibiting the release of stored glucose can reduce glucose levels. It's just that it's not a new idea at all. It's the standard frontline treatment for T2 diabetes and has been for 50 years, so I'm not sure what you think you're bringing here that's new or revolutionary.

 

[pottersusan]

What about those who have had their stomachs removed as well? How does this hypothesis explain the quite severe problems such people suffer?
).

Here! Here!!

 

[Diabeticliberty]

While I partially accept your point that pharmaceutical companies may be our friends personally I prefer to have them onside rather than offside. Of course they make 'gazillions' as you put it out of selling drugs to us. They are for the most part private companies who spend 'gazillions' of pounds in research and development to provide me with a synthetic insulin which I hope for all the world gives me a longer life. It has certainly given me a far better quality of life than I could have ever expected without the stuff. Diabetes is now being commonly cited as one of the biggest areas of expenditure for global health organisations. If the suggestion is that a chance of a cure for all diabetics was being held back by pharmaceutical companies for financial motives I would personally find this a little bit naïve at best.

 

[mcmoby69]

I did type a rather long reply, but lost it unfortunately.
In a nutshell. 14 yrs ago I was diagnosed, for 6 yrs i followed GP's advice, lost weight followed diet and took drugs as advised, Numbers went up and up.

Painful feet, blurry eyes, background retinopathy. started googling, found several interesting connections between internet sites and vague recollections of O'level biology at school.

Doubts about my insanity crept in Surely myGP was right? Eatwell plate, wholemeal bread and pasta etc etc,lowerfat,lose weight blah blah 140units of lantus daily..........14 hrs shifts shopfitting, building sites, carrying materials,cement plasterboards, up flights of stairs. doctor said i needed to join a gym!

NOPE, no control.
Sod it what have i got to lose? Eyes kidneys, toes, feet etc. I was doing as advised and it wasnt working.

Atkins, one month. BG's dropped weight started going, hypos ensued.dropped lantus. carried on for 6mths. lost 2 st in weight and achieved an A1c of 6.4 down from 10.6.

My GP got it so wrong for so long. I personally think that if I was given correct dietary advice at the outset things would have been different. Two chaps who attended the xpert and xpert insulin courses with me are now dead and another has just had his second leg amputated. As it happens they slavishly followed their GP's advice. The double amputee is under my ex doctor unfortunately.
So,please excuse me for being so skeptical when we are told that insulin is the only tool for treating a symptom.

 

[SlowRunner]

So what you are basically saying is to cut down on the carbs and eat a diet that is higher in fat & protein, e.g. a ketogenic diet? I think you'll find that a lot of users of this forum would agree with you there!

 

[robert@fm]

At first glance, I misread you as saying "shoplifting"! 😉 Unfortunately your experience is all too typical of my experiences of the medical profession (and those I have read here); how anyone could reckon that "join a gym" is sensible advice for someone who is already getting, for free, vastly more exercise than most people ever see, is beyond me. But then this is the same medical profession who reckon that a high-carb diet is the way to treat diabetes (what next, advise us all to use plenty of salt and to go on the booze and the fags?🙄), and who advise that the way to lower cholesterol (which is actually due to carbs again) is to cut out fat...

 

[trophywench]

Well as I've said countless times over the last 15 or 20 years - in the older days, when Adam was a lad and BEFORE I was diagnosed - it mattered not what Type of diabetes a person had - they ALL were advised to limit their carbs. When I was middle aged, they suddenly changed that to 'eat LOADS of carbs, especially starchy carbs'.

You what? That can't be right - I've known since I was 14 that starchy carbs make you fat, even when you aren't diabetic - I certainly wasn't and they made me fat; they did the same for my older sister and my mom - no diabetes anywhere in our family - just 3 women who limited their carbs esp the starchy ones, so as to remain a nice weight and shape! I was probably the most dedicated since of course I obviously wanted to turn into a brunette Twiggy.

 

[DeusXM]

So,please excuse me for being so skeptical when we are told that insulin is the only tool for treating a symptom.

No one was saying that though. I think the dispute was coming from idea that you'd found some magical solution that apparently Big Pharma in cahoots with the NHS was trying to suppress.

I certainly am not disputing the idea that the medical advice given by our doctors and Diabetes UK is bunk and unfit for purpose.