Trans Woman Brianna Ghey Murder Trial Begins In Manchester

[maryjaneholland]

Nine months on from the devastating death of 16-year-old Brianna Ghey the trial of two teens charged with her murder has begun.
A boy and a girl both 16, who cannot be named for legal reasons, each face a charge of murdering the Birchwood schoolgirl in Culcheth Linear Park in February.

Brianna Ghey murder trial begins in Manchester

Nine months on from the devastating death of 16-year-old Brianna Ghey the trial of two teens charged with her murder has begun.

www.thepinknews.com

This may seem self-indulgent navel gazing to many here, and that's fine, I am posting this to highlight several issues related to Diabetes UK Support Forum, such as the lack of welcoming LGBTQIA+ Community Safe Space section, as balance to the "parents" and "schools" and "pregnancy" sections which excludes many LGBTQIA+ people who are either single, or gay men and trans women in particular largely excluded from the world of fostering and adoption with links to religious groups, or just living lives outside of heteronormative expectations... Many lesbians and bisexual women and trans men have the gift of creating their own children and LGBTQIA+ families on their own without cisgendered male partners or husbands at all... (Insert safe for work image of turkey baster here...)

And to highlight the phobic violence and discrimination and deep hurt I experience as self-identified queer trans non-binary person living with diabetes at every point of contact with NHS and all healthcare providers (including Bupa as there's no NHS dentists in my entire region), I am misgendered, I am deadnamed, I am less than, I am erased by forms and admin staff which don't even acknowledge the diversity of gender and sexuality between human consenting adults in human society (I see you Furries too!), I am forced to be adversarial and complain demanding better healthcare and treatment for my self and people like me, as when they said "free healthcare at the point of need for all" yes they meant me and all minority groups, for we exist and are human too!

The painful sting of constantly being asked about "erectile dysfunction" by NHS staff as standard diabetes question for quote "men" because my birth certificate states I was observed or assigned as "gender male" on my birth certificate and it's just assumed as an adult I have no desire or capacity or autonomy to change that observation or assignment, so suck it up, you can of course decline to answer that question, my GP helpfully informs me!

Since Brianna Ghey's transphobic murder by her peers in February this year, I have tried to bring light to the black hole of what my future could easily hold, just another hate crime and just another murder or suicide statistic, and I am posting this here because there currently is nowhere else on the support forum for LGBTQIA+ people living with diabetes to vent their spleen in safe space, and the ignorance and bigotry I have experienced ultimately leads to violent desires having violent ends, 28 stab wounds as way of quantifying the brutish hatred felt by Brianna Ghey's assailants towards her very existence, who bullied her in school and referred to her as "it" and casually walked away as she bled to death in public park in Warrington like Brianna was nothing, her young life cut short of all the friends and community and love she deserved and most likely would have found in the large LGBTQIA+ Community in Manchester as an adult, but we will never know.

RIP Brianna Ghey, you will have justice in Manchester

'Resilient' candlelight vigil held in Manchester for Trans Day of Remembrance

Flowers, candles and messages of hope were all laid within Manchester's Gay Village as part of the vigil

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

 

[ColinUK]

I’m a gay man.

I’m not sure how either the parenting or schools parts of the forum exclude anyone other than those who do not have children or any involvement in schooling anyone.

I can only speak for me but I’ve found this forum incredibly welcoming and accepting. I never hide who I am or what I’ve been through regarding traumatic experiences of sexual violence I’ve survived because I’m a gay man.

I’m sorry you feel that the forum isn’t supportive. What could change to make it feel more so for you?

 

[Thebearcametoo]

Hi, I’m finding the transcripts of the trial horrific. I have a 13 year old trans son who has diabetes (I am myself at best gender agnostic and if I have the energy agender/trans non binary) and I know he and his trans friends are at higher risk of violence than their peers. Brianna deserved a full and joyful life.


As an aside about the trial I do hate that they’re using joint enterprise though. Such laws are incompatible with trans liberation.

 

[ColinUK]

Hi, I’m finding the transcripts of the trial horrific. I have a 13 year old trans son who has diabetes (I am myself at best gender agnostic and if I have the energy agender/trans non binary) and I know he and his trans friends are at higher risk of violence than their peers. Brianna deserved a full and joyful life.


As an aside about the trial I do hate that they’re using joint enterprise though. Such laws are incompatible with trans liberation.

Why do you hate the joint enterprise part?

 

[Inka]

The transcripts are shocking. The texts between the two accused are extremely shocking. A number of people are listed as potential targets. The casualness of the discussions around violence is awful. Poor Brianna.

Yes, what’s the issue with the joint enterprise?

 

[Thebearcametoo]

Joint enterprise is too close to thought crimes for my liking. There’s a big difference between talking about doing something and actually doing it. LGBTQ+ liberation can’t come through carceral solutions.

 

[Inka]

I kind of get what you’re saying, but do you think joint enterprise appropriate in some cases? As an unrelated example, if someone manipulated, threatened or persuaded another person to commit an attack, would it not be appropriate to consider the culpability of the manipulator?

 

[maryjaneholland]

@ColinUK thanks for replying, and for posting so openly and honestly here about your experiences as many of your threads came up when I was looking for that elusive LGBTQIA+ Community safe space as newbie.

Yes I accept overall on balance many regulars here have been friendly and supportive here to point, but I have also found that as soon as I post anything very personal touching upon my non-straight gender and sexuality and identity, it either shuts down the entire conversation on thread, or conversely opens up "Pandora's Box" where there's convergence of hostility, ignorance, pub banter, casual homophobia/transphobia, questioning my existence (yes I am real person!) and being bluntly and metaphorically beaten down.

As for the supposed level playing field of "anyone can get pregnant and become parent and join their offspring's PTA school meetings, what's the big deal" there is evidenced and institutionalised discrimination against same-sex couples seeking IVF via the NHS, which is so endemic the campaigns don't appear to acknowledge single people or cisgendered men seeking IVF via the NHS, here's one article published as part of campaign by Stonewall:

The hidden costs facing potential LGBTQ+ parents

The practical and financial costs that face many LGBTQ+ people who want to have children are unfair and must be challenged.

www.stonewall.org.uk

I also have personal experience of LGBTQIA+ friends who self-identified openly as gay men being refused access to fostering and adoption services due to being single, due to being gay and therefore not courting favour with religious organisations very much in control of decision-making processes about who are the "right" (meaning "straight heterosexual married") people to look after children, and due to not having the resources to offer large houses with many bedrooms and facilities for raising children, which similarly to IVF via the NHS, becomes inevitably class and status issue for LGBTQIA+ Communities, as those who can afford to pay privately may controversially choose surrogacy and surrogate to give birth to their child where fostering and adoption is not an option.

I would like to see "LGBTQIA+" section welcoming community members, as there's also lots of stigma in our communities about chronic medical conditions and automatically being excluded from everything around the quote "gay scene" if you are not going out drinking alcohol, taking drugs, having casual sex, enjoying takeaway food and living for the nightlife (I am categorically NOT judging any of these behaviours having engaged in these quote "lifestyle choices" prior to my formal diagnosis too!), and I freely admit that some of my "scene queen" fairweather friends acted like I had died when I chose to disclose to them I had Type 2 Diabetes, and yep Fatty Liver, and oh my Sleep Apnoea, and oh yeah, Obesity, having overdone it on all of the above, and they could only say "sorry to hear that babes" followed by incredulous eye-rolling and shock when I further disclosed I was now completely sober, tee-total, alcohol-free and taking medication to lower my blood glucose levels, and partying for me would now mean bottled water, sugar free soft drinks and maybe side salad instead of the inevitable "kebab o'clock walk of shame" trotting home in heels with friends fully binge eating on whatever takeaways could offer them after midnight, great times!

I have also attended LGBTQIA+ Community retreats and I am sorry to report that older gay men living with Type 1 Diabetes monitoring their blood glucose levels and injecting insulin felt even amongst safe supportive community spaces they had to hide away and retreat to the woods or the laundry room or the basement level to manage their diabetes unseen and unheard as they were obviously fed up of people asking questions, or worse, assuming they were drug addicts getting high with intravenous illegal drugs, but there are all kinds of social pressures and peer pressures and personal struggles we experience as minority group around body image, self image and self esteem which are very common issues within our diverse LGBTQIA+ Communities and not fully understood or appreciated by cisgendered heterosexual people.

There are other examples, but I don't want to incur anyone's wrath further or burn more bridges, and my original point badly made was something good must come from the unnecessary and preventable and premature deaths of trans women murdered by transphobic people in premeditated violent attacks, like Brianna Ghey, as she won't be the last trans person to meet violent end in our society, and lifelong medical conditions like diabetes add to the burdens already carried and many LGBTQIA+ people can't access the help they need and take their own lives in disproportionate numbers too due to health inequalities and very poor health outcomes from inaccessible services.

 

[ColinUK]

I get what you’re saying however we have two suspects here who undeniably murdered Brianna.
There’s evidence that they both discussed specifically killing her. They both were aware of the weapon. They both discussed how to kill her.
My thoughts are that in the absence of knowing who actually delivered the fatal blow joint enterprise is the exact correct approach to take because they are both jointly responsible for her murder.

Even if there was clear evidence who delivered the fatal blow I’d still support joint enterprise here as it was a joint endeavour.

 

[maryjaneholland]

@Thebearcametoo I will look up the joint enterprise issues, I also admit that aspects of the incident in the park, the case and trial hit so close to home to me personally having been attacked and assaulted and threatened on the streets, and attended the Transgender Day of Remembrance over many years that I find my self crying uncontrollably at the sadness and waste of bright life ahead of Brianna as young trans woman, and also feeling angry and frustrated that our society is complicit in these violent desires leading to violent ends, every last transphobic comment, every takedown tabloid article, every talkshow host misgendering and mocking their guests who happen to be trans or non-binary and every teacher who ignored phobic bullying in their schools has shared responsibility for these brutal uncivilised outcomes and these deaths of real people who happened to be LGBTQIA+ in some way.

 

[ColinUK]

@ColinUK thanks for replying, and for posting so openly and honestly here about your experiences as many of your threads came up when I was looking for that elusive LGBTQIA+ Community safe space as newbie.

Yes I accept overall on balance many regulars here have been friendly and supportive here to point, but I have also found that as soon as I post anything very personal touching upon my non-straight gender and sexuality and identity, it either shuts down the entire conversation on thread, or conversely opens up "Pandora's Box" where there's convergence of hostility, ignorance, pub banter, casual homophobia/transphobia, questioning my existence (yes I am real person!) and being bluntly and metaphorically beaten down by some misplaced allegiances to what obscure "OG" radical feminists said about their personal opinions of trans people in out-of-print arcane texts from many decades ago, which have been fully discredited and debunked by present day LGBTQIA+ academics and writers - I would usually say "look it up" but you can't unless you have access to very large well-resourced university libraries in big cities, so yeah, defunct!

As for the supposed level playing field of "anyone can get pregnant and become parent and join their offspring's PTA school meetings, what's the big deal" there is evidenced and institutionalised discrimination against same-sex couples seeking IVF via the NHS, which is so endemic the campaigns don't appear to acknowledge single people or cisgendered men seeking IVF via the NHS, here's one article published as part of campaign by Stonewall:

The hidden costs facing potential LGBTQ+ parents

The practical and financial costs that face many LGBTQ+ people who want to have children are unfair and must be challenged.

www.stonewall.org.uk

I also have personal experience of LGBTQIA+ friends who self-identified openly as gay men being refused access to fostering and adoption services due to being single, due to being gay and therefore not courting favour with religious organisations very much in control of decision-making processes about who are the "right" (meaning "straight heterosexual married") people to look after children, and due to not having the resources to offer large houses with many bedrooms and facilities for raising children, which similarly to IVF via the NHS, becomes inevitably class and status issue for LGBTQIA+ Communities, as those who can afford to pay privately may controversially choose surrogacy and surrogate to give birth to their child where fostering and adoption is not an option.

I would like to see "LGBTQIA+" section welcoming community members, as there's also lots of stigma in our communities about chronic medical conditions and automatically being excluded from everything around the quote "gay scene" if you are not going out drinking alcohol, taking drugs, having casual sex, enjoying takeaway food and living for the nightlife (I am categorically NOT judging any of these behaviours having engaged in these quote "lifestyle choices" prior to my formal diagnosis too!), and I freely admit that some of my "scene queen" fairweather friends acted like I had died when I chose to disclose to them I had Type 2 Diabetes, and yep Fatty Liver, and oh my Sleep Apnoea, and oh yeah, Obesity, having overdone it on all of the above, and they could only say "sorry to hear that babes" followed by incredulous eye-rolling and shock when I further disclosed I was now completely sober, tee-total, alcohol-free and taking medication to lower my blood glucose levels, and partying for me would now mean bottled water, sugar free soft drinks and maybe side salad instead of the inevitable "kebab o'clock walk of shame" trotting home in heels with friends fully binge eating on whatever takeaways could offer them after midnight, great times!

I have also attended LGBTQIA+ Community retreats and I am sorry to report that older gay men living with Type 1 Diabetes monitoring their blood glucose levels and injecting insulin felt even amongst safe supportive community spaces they had to hide away and retreat to the woods or the laundry room or the basement level to manage their diabetes unseen and unheard as they were obviously fed up of people asking questions, or worse, assuming they were drug addicts getting high with intravenous illegal drugs, but there are all kinds of social pressures and peer pressures and personal struggles we experience as minority group around body image, self image and self esteem which are very common issues within our diverse LGBTQIA+ Communities and not fully understood or appreciated by cisgendered heterosexual people.

There are other examples, but I don't want to incur anyone's wrath further or burn more bridges, and my original point badly made was something good must come from the unnecessary and preventable and premature deaths of trans women murdered by transphobic people in premeditated violent attacks, like Brianna Ghey, as she won't be the last trans person to meet violent end in our society, and lifelong medical conditions like diabetes add to the burdens already carried and many LGBTQIA+ people can't access the help they need and take their own lives in disproportionate numbers too due to health inequalities and very poor health outcomes from inaccessible services.

I’m still not sure what you’d like to change on this forum to make a difference?
This is a diabetes forum so the common thread is that, it’s not designed to support mental well-being beyond that limited sphere but it does for me because of the contributors who comment on posts.

I’m sorry to hear that you’ve experienced conversations being shut down after posting personal things. I hope that you meant more that the conversation stops rather than the thread is officially closed by admins or your post removed.

In my experience some threads/posts seem to not get traction online (not just here but in general) when participants may be concerned about how to respond to them sensitively. When faced with the prospect of offending someone many people opt to say nothing. Could that be what’s happening here?

You mention attending retreats. I attended a couple of Edward Carpenter retreats and I hosted a workshop on diabetes. It was reasonably well attended and some of those who joined also joined this forum afterwards.

Were those retreats structured in a way where you could host a diabetes related workshop and help demystify this condition?

 

[Amity Island]

When faced with the prospect of offending someone many people opt to say nothing.

A sign of the times and getting worse. I remember when offence (deliberate and offensive to just about anyone within earshot) was something that was given. Now offence is instead "taken" to be whatever the individual decides it to be.

 

[helli]

@maryjaneholland sorry to read about your experiences and those of the LGBTQIA+ community.
I have recently started working with an amazing, intelligent, funny, caring trans woman who has opened my eyes to the type of bigotry you describe. You are correct, as a cisgendered heterosexual woman, I do not fully understand the issues your diverse community experiences every day.
I really appreciate it when you have the time, patience and courage to explain this to me. And hope more understanding from others like me will make things easier.
There is never any reason for such violence and hatred but, unfortunately, there is a fear and misunderstanding of difference.
Thank you for being open and sharing.

(And I hope my message does not come across as condescending.)

 

[Thebearcametoo]

@Thebearcametoo I will look up the joint enterprise issues, I also admit that aspects of the incident in the park, the case and trial hit so close to home to me personally having been attacked and assaulted and threatened on the streets, and attended the Transgender Day of Remembrance over many years that I find my self crying uncontrollably at the sadness and waste of bright life ahead of Brianna as young trans woman, and also feeling angry and frustrated that our society is complicit in these violent desires leading to violent ends, every last transphobic comment, every takedown tabloid article, every talkshow host misgendering and mocking their guests who happen to be trans or non-binary and every teacher who ignored phobic bullying in their schools has shared responsibility for these brutal uncivilised outcomes and these deaths of real people who happened to be LGBTQIA+ in some way.

Yes and for me the things that resulted in a culture that means teenagers are regurgitating these attitudes and then acting on the hate is the problem. Obviously it should have been classified a hate crime but also it should be a hug wake up call to the legislators, politicians, and media who have been spewing hate.

 

[Thebearcametoo]

I kind of get what you’re saying, but do you think joint enterprise appropriate in some cases? As an unrelated example, if someone manipulated, threatened or persuaded another person to commit an attack, would it not be appropriate to consider the culpability of the manipulator?

They should be charged accordingly of any crime they have committed but joint enterprise is not appropriate. IMO.

 

[Robin]

They should be charged accordingly of any crime they have committed but joint enterprise is not appropriate. IMO.

I can see why Joint Enterprise has to be approached with caution. The most notorious joint enterprise case was probably that of Derek Bentley, whose call to his armed accomplice 'Let him have it' was interpreted as an instruction to shoot the police officer, rather than a plea to give up the gun to that officer. He was hanged, but later granted a posthumous pardon, which wasn’t a lot of use to him.
What would likely happen in the current case, though, is that neither of the accused could be proven beyond reasonable doubt to have inflicted the fatal injury, and therefore, both would have to be acquitted.

 

[nonethewiser]

Remember this tragic case with Brianna, so very sad & so young to.

Don't think we need seperate forums for whatever people decide to identify themselves as, general message board is open to all & no one here, as far as I'm aware judges anyone for who they are.

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

Thanks to those who have contributed to this thread concerning the dreadful crime that has been committed, and the trial currently underway.

We strive to make this an open, welcoming, and inclusive place for everyone regardless of gender, sexuality, ethnicity, and type of diabetes.

Some posts have been reported, so the thread has been temporarily closed by the volunteer mods for further replies while it can be reviewed by DUK to ensure all posts are fair and within the forum rules (see the ‘Welcome and Getting Started’ section.

I am not allocated time to the forum today - but rest assured this is not about censorship or shutting down conversation, it is just about ensuring that threads, especially on sensitive topics, are handled properly within the supportive atmosphere we try to create.

Thanks for your understanding. 🙂

 

[everydayupsanddowns]

“Two 16-year-olds have been found guilty of murdering Brianna Ghey, a “unique, and truly unforgettable” transgender girl who was stabbed 28 times in a Warrington park this year.”

Teenagers guilty of ‘senseless’ murder of transgender girl Brianna Ghey

Murder-obsessed 16-year-olds convicted of killing girl who was stabbed 28 times in Warrington park

www.theguardian.com