Thoughts on Remission/Reversal

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mhtyler

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 2
Since reaching remission I feel that I can say something sensible on the topic of what remission and reversal are. I rely on Professor Roy Taylor’s definition that if you are below a 7 average glucose number for 3+ months which is roughly an A1c of 6, you’re non-diabetic. It doesn’t mean you’re cured. It does mean that you’ve recovered both liver and pancreas function, and that would imply at least a partial reversal of the condition. It certainly doesn’t imply that you can’t slide back into Type 2 Diabetes (TB2) either. Anyone in remission has a quicker path to TB2 than the average person without the illness. It is also likely that anyone in remission will have to modify their food intake in terms of kind and amount to maintain it. I can vouch for the fact that my diet was so bad I’m now frankly amazed that it took me 62 years to develop a full-blown case of it.

It is also clear to me that remission is a very individual thing. Some may only maintain it with a ketogenic diet, while others may find they can be more flexible. A lucky few may even find they’ve completely reversed the condition. Cured. Those are likely individuals who’ve only recently been diagnosed with TB2, or if they’re really lucky, they’ve reversed while still pre-diabetic. To me, reversal implies that you’re cured, and can now return to whatever bad habits you have, although as in the case of remission, doing so is likely to put you back to square one sooner rather than later. So in short, I think that both remission and reversal are possible, but that neither is unconditional. Someone in a post here suggested that remission requires 2 A1c tests to be official. That feels artificial. The lifespan of blood cells being 3-4 months long, a single test is going to determine if you’re non-diabetic or not. A second test period will only confirm or deny whether it’s been maintained. Two weeks into the Newcastle Diet my numbers were non-diabetic, but I was well aware that at that point an A1c test would give me the lie. According to Dr Robert Lustig, an expert in this field, 93% of people in America (and likely a number close to that in the UK) have metabolic illness associated with the dreadful diet associated with processed and ultra-processed foods. It seems those of us who are diabetic have a lot of company waiting in the wings.
 
The current definition of remission is an HbA1c below 48 for 3 months without taking any diabetes medication. This definition was recently agreed by a team of international experts from Diabetes UK, the American Diabetes Association, and the European Association for the Study of Diabetes. Diabetes UK doesn't call it 'reversing type 2 diabetes' because remission isn’t a cure, but when you’re in remission (no signs, no symptoms) it means your symptoms are on pause (their words), as is any new damage it can do.

You're right about people waiting in the wings. It's generally considered that there are millions with T2 who don't know they have it.
 
The current definition of remission is an HbA1c below 48 for 3 months without taking any diabetes medication. This definition was recently agreed by a team of international experts from Diabetes UK, the American Diabetes Association, and the European Association for the Study of Diabetes. Diabetes UK doesn't call it 'reversing type 2 diabetes' because remission isn’t a cure, but when you’re in remission (no signs, no symptoms) it means your symptoms are on pause (their words), as is any new damage it can do.

You're right about people waiting in the wings. It's generally considered that there are millions with T2 who don't know they have it.
As an American I have little respect for the American Diabetes Association. Those guys can't find their own butt with both hands. I don't know the other folks, but anyone who agrees with them is suspect. The reason I'm on a UK site is that the UK seems to have a much better handle on the issue. If we go with their definition though, then someone with an average of 7.84 mmol/L isn't diabetic. So, what are they, ...healthy? I think YouTube is light years ahead of all of these associations. Indeed, without YouTube, I'd be either diabetic or dead. I've had 5 doctors over the last 8 years. None ever suggested remission was even a thing. It was, "Here's your pill, pay your bill." We're on our own. Credit where it' due your NHS is at least trying to address the issue.
 
The 'official' definition appears here (summarised in the conclusions) and is as @Martin.A describes it - 3 months below 48 mmol/mol without glucose-lowering medication. It is an artificial definition and to my mind is not especially useful unless it can be used as a way to cheaper health insurance 😉

My own current thoughts on remission, for what they're worth...

After initially striving for remission I find that I no longer feel any great desire to achieve it. I don't actually want to be off medications just for the sake of it, at least not anymore - I want the best long-term health outcomes with a reasonable overall quality of life. A HbA1c of 47 mmol/mol is not low enough for my taste. I am prepared to and have made significant changes to my diet, but I'm not about to join the Cult of Keto any time soon. I'm absolutely certain that following a mess of weight lost I could now achieve 'official' remission through a restrictive diet and lots of exercise but I want to be able to visit a restaurant on a family occasion and not be severely limited as to what I can and can't eat. If medication helps keep my BG nice and low, well below the 'official' remission threshold, while helping to mitigate the negative effects of the occasional carb-heavy meal, then I'm happy enough to stay on the meds.

I'm not someone who believes that medications in and of themselves make Type 2 diabetes worse over time. I believe the notion that medications are the cause of diabetes progression is little more than folklore, so long as the medications in question don't cause weight gain. When it comes to medications that work on organs other than the pancreas in particular, such as Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors, I believe it impossible that they could make my diabetes any worse. Both medications also have wider protective effects beyond their use in controlling blood glucose. The SGLT2 inhibitor I'm currently on, Dapagliflozin, is known to be protective of the kidneys for example.

A little known possible side-effect of this class of medications is that they may help prevent accumulation of fat in the liver. If Prof Roy Taylor is wrong about this Personal Fat Threshold theory, and maintaining a stable weight after significant weight loss is not necessarily enough to ensure that fat does not re-accumulate in the liver, then staying on the Dapagliflozin might possibly help make the difference in halting progression of my diabetes for a few (or many) extra years. Worth it in my opinion, so long as there are no side effects.

A few months ago achieving 'official' remission was an all-consuming obsession, but now I'm of the view that for me at least, being on medication isn't such a bad deal after all.
 
then someone with an average of 7.84 mmol/L isn't diabetic.
No, they're still diabetic and always will be. My HbA1c has been in normal range for 4 1/2 years but I still consider myself to be diabetic. So does the NHS as I still get invited for eye screening, foot checks etc and I have my next diabetes review at the end of this month.

As an aside, when I was striving for remission back in 2019 the definition was two HbA1c results six months apart with no meds, so much tougher.
 
The 'official' definition appears here (summarised in the conclusions) and is as @Martin.A describes it - 3 months below 48 mmol/mol without glucose-lowering medication. It is an artificial definition and to my mind is not especially useful unless it can be used as a way to cheaper health insurance 😉

My own current thoughts on remission, for what they're worth...

After initially striving for remission I find that I no longer feel any great desire to achieve it. I don't actually want to be off medications just for the sake of it, at least not anymore - I want the best long-term health outcomes with a reasonable overall quality of life. A HbA1c of 47 mmol/mol is not low enough for my taste. I am prepared to and have made significant changes to my diet, but I'm not about to join the Cult of Keto any time soon. I'm absolutely certain that following a mess of weight lost I could now achieve 'official' remission through a restrictive diet and lots of exercise but I want to be able to visit a restaurant on a family occasion and not be severely limited as to what I can and can't eat. If medication helps keep my BG nice and low, well below the 'official' remission threshold, while helping to mitigate the negative effects of the occasional carb-heavy meal, then I'm happy enough to stay on the meds.

I'm not someone who believes that medications in and of themselves make Type 2 diabetes worse over time. I believe the notion that medications are the cause of diabetes progression is little more than folklore, so long as the medications in question don't cause weight gain. When it comes to medications that work on organs other than the pancreas in particular, such as Metformin and SGLT2 inhibitors, I believe it impossible that they could make my diabetes any worse. Both medications also have wider protective effects beyond their use in controlling blood glucose. The SGLT2 inhibitor I'm currently on, Dapagliflozin, is known to be protective of the kidneys for example.

A little known possible side-effect of this class of medications is that they may help prevent accumulation of fat in the liver. If Prof Roy Taylor is wrong about this Personal Fat Threshold theory, and maintaining a stable weight after significant weight loss is not necessarily enough to ensure that fat does not re-accumulate in the liver, then staying on the Dapagliflozin might possibly help make the difference in halting progression of my diabetes for a few (or many) extra years. Worth it in my opinion, so long as there are no side effects.

A few months ago achieving 'official' remission was an all-consuming obsession, but now I'm of the view that for me at least, being on medication isn't such a bad deal after all.
In my thoughts on remission, I point out that this is an individual journey. We each have to chart our course. I didn't choose yours, but I certainly considered it. I will go off the rails at least occasionally for exactly the reasons you say. I'm having cake on my birthday, and although I don't go to the movies often, when I do I'm having popcorn...full stop! There's an old saying with which you are likely familiar: Eat right, exercise regularly, and die anyway.

I think that Prof. Taylor is right about the personal fat threshold because I've seen it work for myself, and it seems to be gaining acceptance in the medical community. He says the science supports it, but that it hasn't been tested beyond 5 years. Good enough for me. I've yet to hear an explanation for the reason behind it other than it is genetic.

As for medications causing the progression of diabetes, the only one that I'm certain of is Insulin, and there are still T2D people taking it. My brother-in-law (a T2D) has taken it for more than 20 years. He still does at the age of 74. I don't think it's a coincidence that he's had 4 different kinds of cancer and is sadly and plainly suffering from dementia. I need no medications now, but if my pancreas hadn't bounced back as much as it has I'd get back on Metformin in a shot, and I'd likely consider others. BTW, most recently when I've gone off the rails for a day, my glucose spiles less and snaps back to normal the next day. It's like a miracle. However, after I've had that sugar I hate the feeling I get from it, especially overnight. It's essentially a sugar hangover. Ugly.
 
No, they're still diabetic and always will be. My HbA1c has been in normal range for 4 1/2 years but I still consider myself to be diabetic. So does the NHS as I still get invited for eye screening, foot checks etc and I have my next diabetes review at the end of this month.

As an aside, when I was striving for remission back in 2019 the definition was two HbA1c results six months apart with no meds, so much tougher.
You're right, I misspoke...we're all still diabetic, in remission or otherwise. The point I was trying to make is that the recommended number isn't anything I'd consider healthy. This is what the American Diabetes Assoc. does: they have one number considered good for non diabetics, and a higher one for diabetics. What is the point of that telling someone to aim for a score that will continue to damage you? I wish that was their only insanity, but it isn't. As for your aside; what is the logic of two successive tests? All I can think of is that the doctor can't believe his own eyes and is betting you can't do it again. I think it's much more reasonable to say, "you're in remission now, but if it goes up, you're out of the club." The comedian Jonathan Winters was 1/13th Cherokee. He said the chief told him, "One nosebleed, and you're out of the tribe."
 
I think that Prof. Taylor is right about the personal fat threshold because I've seen it work for myself, and it seems to be gaining acceptance in the medical community. He says the science supports it, but that it hasn't been tested beyond 5 years. Good enough for me. I've yet to hear an explanation for the reason behind it other than it is genetic.
Just to clarify - I've seen his ideas work for myself too in that my blood tests and my own experiments show I've likely solved the problem of my fatty liver and by BG levels are hugely improved. There's no question in my mind that big weight loss yields big results, and I strongly believe his theory that a fatty liver is the root cause of most cases of Type 2. The Personal Fat Threshold theory, that losing a specific amount of weight and staying below that threshold will prevent the fatty-liver problem from recurring, is not well proven in my opinion though. Taylor has proved that losing a lot of weight gets fat out of the liver but not, in my opinion, proved the prevention part. I'm choosing not to risk it and will take all the steps I can to address all the risk factors for NAFLD. Low skeletal muscle mass and a sedentary lifestyle are risk factors for a fatty liver, independent of body fat levels - so I'm lifting (little) weights and exercising a lot. I'm also going to stay on Dapagliflozin (so long as my doctor allows it) and I'm trying (and so far failing) to get a prescription for Ezetimibe - a cholesterol-lowering medication which also has the possible side-effect of preventing a fatty liver.

If Taylor is correct about a fatty liver being the root cause of Type 2 and it's progression, and I very much hope and believe he is, then so long as I can keep excess fat out of my liver I should be able to halt progression of my diabetes - at least until advanced age makes exercise difficult and messes with my insulin resistance levels. I'm just not prepared to put all my eggs in one basket by trusting that keeping my weight stable is all I need to do to achieve that.
 
Just to clarify - I've seen his ideas work for myself too in that my blood tests and my own experiments show I've likely solved the problem of my fatty liver and by BG levels are hugely improved. There's no question in my mind that big weight loss yields big results, and I strongly believe his theory that a fatty liver is the root cause of most cases of Type 2. The Personal Fat Threshold theory, that losing a specific amount of weight and staying below that threshold will prevent the fatty-liver problem from recurring, is not well proven in my opinion though. Taylor has proved that losing a lot of weight gets fat out of the liver but not, in my opinion, proved the prevention part. I'm choosing not to risk it and will take all the steps I can to address all the risk factors for NAFLD. Low skeletal muscle mass and a sedentary lifestyle are risk factors for a fatty liver, independent of body fat levels - so I'm lifting (little) weights and exercising a lot. I'm also going to stay on Dapagliflozin (so long as my doctor allows it) and I'm trying (and so far failing) to get a prescription for Ezetimibe - a cholesterol-lowering medication which also has the possible side-effect of preventing a fatty liver.

If Taylor is correct about a fatty liver being the root cause of Type 2 and it's progression, and I very much hope and believe he is, then so long as I can keep excess fat out of my liver I should be able to halt progression of my diabetes - at least until advanced age makes exercise difficult and messes with my insulin resistance levels. I'm just not prepared to put all my eggs in one basket by trusting that keeping my weight stable is all I need to do to achieve that.
You are dead on about low skeletal muscle mass and sedentary lifestyle, and in fact Prof Taylor acknowledges that weight loss does nothing to improve insulin resistance in skeletal muscle. It seems that T2D's tend to have higher than normal insulin resistance naturally, add to that the destruction that occurs in the transport mechanism from bloodstream to muscle from extended high glucose levels and no matter how well your liver and pancreas functions it's not going to make up for the largest organ in your body not helping out. This is why I walk walk walk, because when you're moving the independent transport mechanism from bloodstream to muscle works just as well as a normal person. I'm off weight lifting until I finish my last bit of weight loss, but then I'll be back working on resistance training. Something like 1/3 of all T2D's have sarcopenia, and as one doctor on YouTube pointed out, "if you don't want to have diabetes, don't have a diabetic body."
 
The current definition of remission is an HbA1c below 48 for 3 months without taking any diabetes medication. This definition was recently agreed by a team of international experts from Diabetes UK, the American Diabetes Association, and the European Association for the Study of Diabetes. Diabetes UK doesn't call it 'reversing type 2 diabetes' because remission isn’t a cure, but when you’re in remission (no signs, no symptoms) it means your symptoms are on pause (their words), as is any new damage it can do.

You're right about people waiting in the wings. It's generally considered that there are millions with T2 who don't know they have it.
Agreed, I have no idea how long I have been diabetic only a diagnosed diabetic. I had zero symptoms, not overweight..I was having blood tests for something else!!!
 
Hello mhtyler. I've followed your progress on these forums over the past few months, your efforts with a Newcastle/Prof Taylor approach have mirrored mine. Congratulations on your remission.
I claim no medical expertise and I'm certainly not as widely read or experienced as many others on this forum but my perspective (and this perspective helps motivate me towards the lifestyle changes I've chosen to make and hope to sustain) is this:
You have diabetes if your HbA1c is elevated above 48;
You are in remission if your result is below 48 and you are on medication and/or you are actively managing or restricting carb intake;
Your diabetes is reversed if you've taken measures to reduce insulin resistance and get below 48 and are now able to sustain a level below 48 without medication or ongoing conscious carb management.
And the caveat to the above is that remission or reversing diabetes will not be sustained if you don't maintain the things you've done to get your HbA1c below 48.
This perspective may not match medical definitions, but it helps me make sense of where I am and where I want to be with my health.
All the best for the future.
 
This is an important topic. Large numbers in the global population now have a fatty liver and Professor Mike Lean, Professor Taylor's partner in the DiRECT project, estimates around 40% of them have a disposition to T2D. Fatty Liver is a potentially nasty disease. Anyone who has it is well advised, as I was, to reverse it by diet. This is exactly what Professor Taylor did in the original Counterpoint study in 2008.
As I see it there are three stages of reversion associated with T2D and fatty liver.
1. Reversion to borderline diabetic: 48 mmol/L, "Remission". This means blood sugar is just under control but fatty liver persists.
2. Reversion to borderline prediabetic: 42 mmol/L. Blood sugar is under control but some degree of fatty liver may persist, liver fat level >= 5% (normal <=5%).
3. Reversion to healthy weight, waist less than half height: 32 mmol/L in my case. Liver fat normal.
Some more research into these figures would help the population and the medical profession, us all, to sort ourselves out.
 
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