The sad irony of a beekeeper with Diabetes!

[rebrascora]

Hi
Thanks for allowing me to join this great resource.
I'm Barbara and I was diagnosed with Diabetes on my 55th birthday..... My 3 month reading was 112 and I was started on Metformin and advised to follow a low sugar, low carb, low fat, low salt, no processed meats and no alcohol diet. I've lost 1.5 stone in the past 5 weeks and my BMI is now well into the normal range. Feeling so much better for losing the weight but have almost constant muscle fatigue. I'm normally quite active as I have horses and chickens (and bees) so the lack of energy is proving challenging and I have an incredibly sweet tooth so not being able to eat sweets/chocolate (I am a recovering chocoholic)and sugar and honey and having to keep the carbs and fat down as well is a real shock to my system. I am probably eating too much fruit still but I have cut out all sweets, cakes, biscuits, crisps and everything else naughty..... basically, I have been a saint for 5 weeks, but I am not feeling better as regards symptoms and BG readings are typically between 15 and 25, so they have started me on Glyclazide (sp?).
Anyway, I'm starting to think that the diet I am following is not helping me and not sustainable so I am here to get a better idea of how to move forward with this...... I'll get into that more by asking questions in the general forums, but just wanted to introduce myself here and lay some foundations.
Cheers
Barbara

 

[Jojo catwoman]

Hi Barbara
I was diagnosed last year at the same age as you. I am on Gliclazide and have adjusted my diet. I am no expert by any means, but I have found help on this forum, from the internet and from some medical staff. I understand how you feel as I was totally shocked following diagnosis, having had no real symptoms. Since then, things have been a bit complicated for me, especially following a car accident last October.
I would say you are on the right lines, with the changes you have made. But please do be kind to yourself as well. Have you got a testing machine? I was given one on diagnosis and I find that you have to keep testing to find out the effects of the food you are eating, has on your blood sugars.
All carbs need to be limited, such as bread, potatoes, rice and pasta. Fruit also can only be enjoyed in moderation.

 

[Jojo catwoman]

Sorry Barbara, I meant to type more, but it posted before I could finish. My energy levels are not what they were, but it is important to keep active, so I keep trying. I think it's too hard to be a complete saint, so I allow myself the occasional treat. I was discussing my treatment and diet with a lovely specialist nurse the other day. She said I am pretty much on track, but my G.P's surgery is failing me in some respects. She also said I can drink alcohol in moderation.
I do hope that some of this helps and make sense to you. All will be well and you will get some good advice here. Demand more from your G.P, which is what I am going to do. Sadly, many G.P's seem to know very little about diabetes.
Best wishes to you. 🙂 X

 

[Ljc]

Hello @rebrascora Welcome to the forum . The diet they recommended doesn’t sound sustainable long term to me.
We usually have no problems with protiens or good fats
As you are on Gliclazide they should have provided you with a glucose meter , testing strips which I see they have done.

I am wondering if the muscle fatigue is due to high BG (blood glucose levels)
Have you been put on statins ?

Ask all the questions you need to about diabetes, we’ll do our best to help.

We have lots of helpful info on a thread called, Useful links for people new to diabetes, at the top of the newbies forum, just scroll down to the T2 section .

I suggest you start with this rather long letter
maggie-daveys-letter-to-newly-diagnosed-type-2s.

This blog describes how we use our meters to find out how the various carbohydrates affect us, so we can make informed choices
test-review-adjust by Alan S

What fruit are you eating. Grapes are little sugar bombs

If you like dark chocolate or can develop a taste for it esp 85 %or more ,you can have a couple of squares

If you would like to see what we’ve been eating , have a read through of this very long running thread, we bare our sins there too
what-did-you-eat-yesterday

 

[Drummer]

You need a source of energy - if it isn't carbs then fats are the better option anyway.
I keep being told that fats are bad, that there is proof of it - but whilst I could understand that the fat from an animal fed on a diet wrong for its requirements might be bad, we have evolved eating animal fats so we can grow our brains to the size they are now.
I have eaten a low carb high fat diet whenever I could get away with it since my early 20s, interspersed with 'diets' laid down by my GPs. I know which made me feel better, which is why I burnt all the diet literature I had accumulated - in the garden the day after diagnosis, so as to start a barbeque.
On a low carb diet we do need to ensure enough salt as it tends to deplete electrolytes these days, due to food from depleted soils being sold to us. I take a couple of multi vitamin and mineral tablets a week to prevent cramps and to ensure at least some intake of essential micronutrients.
I was on Metformin and a statin for a few weeks - I have only felt that ill on a few occasions, never for so long. Thankfully I have recovered, but the most galling thing was to realise I never needed the tablets in the first place.

 

[Pumper_Sue]

If after what sounds like a starvation diet you still have high numbers like that, you need to ask for type1 testing. Medics tend to stereo type anyone who is a little overweight or over the age of 25 as type2 instead of making all the checks.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Eating the low calorie diet you have been wouldn't normally be giving those high BG readings in a type 2.
Losing 1.5 stone in five weeks and most people would be seeing normal BG ranges.
(The Newcastle diet was 800 calories a day, and was recently trialed to show you could reverse diabetes, by weight loss)
You seem to have been low everything, carb, fat, protein, for the past 5 weeks, so simply putting more fat into your diet is very unlikely to bring your BG down I'm afraid.

I think @Pumper-Sue may have the right direction.
You may have been mis-diagnosed, and you need to be asking for type 1 testing.

 

[rebrascora]

Many thanks for all the welcoming and helpful replies.

I was not aware that there was different testing for Type 1. My GP practice is really good and they gave me a testing meter at my first appointment but apart from suggesting I use it twice a day, 2 or 3 times a week, 2 hours after food and look to keep the reading below 20 and how to use it, there wasn't really much guidance about correlating the readings with what I eat. They have started talking about me possibly needing insulin. I'm not sure if that suggests I may be Type 1?? I have just started reading my BG on a morning before food now, assuming it will be at it's lowest then and it was 13.6 this morning and 11.9 the morning before, so that is definitely better than my daytime readings.
I do feel that the diet I have been following has been pretty drastic and unsustainable long term and whilst I know I am eating too much fruit, I don't feel like I can give up on it without having something else like fats to compensate or just make it palatable. I will confess that I was seriously overdosing on sugar prior to the diagnosis and was certainly addicted, so going completely cold turkey with limited fruit as well was beyond my abilities. I am scaling back on the fruit now that I am over the worst of the cravings and I have requested an appointment with a dietician and to go on a half day course about Diabetes through my health centre, so those should be coming up in due course. I also have an appointment a week Thurs with the Diabetic Nurse who is visiting the practice and my practice nurse is going to refer me to the consultant.
It is just all a big learning curve at the moment and a little overwhelming some days. I am a retired Police Officer and having worked shifts for many years, I really struggle with any sort of routine, so eating regular meals or even having a regular sleep pattern is quite difficult for me and I know this is not helping my diabetic condition.

@Jojo catwoman
So very sorry that you were involved in a car accident after your diagnosis. That must have been difficult. I hope you are over the effects of the accident now.
I'm hoping the specialist nurse that I see a week Thurs will have more insight for me, but I also need to spend some time on this great forum improving my knowledge so that when I do see her, I will have an idea of the right questions to ask. I am also going to start keeping a food diary so that I can go through it with the dietician and see what tweaks she suggests to improve things.
I really appreciate your contribution. It helps knowing that others are in a similar situation and coping with this.

@Ljc
Yes I believe the muscle fatigue may well be due to my high BG but also no doubt the fast weight loss will be contributing. However for many months (maybe over a year) simple things like holding my phone to my ear for more than a minute or two would induce muscle fatigue in my arm and I would want to sit down if I was standing because I felt unwell but I kind of put that down to menopause and getting older. It was only when I came home from a meal out and had a raging thirst that I couldn't quench and caused me to drink and wee all night and the following days and nights (4 to 6 pit stops a night) until 2 weeks later I got to the stage that I was a walking zombie and knew I had to seek medical help and was pretty sure it was Diabetes from the bit of research I had done.
No, I am not taking statins. My cholesterol is pretty reasonable I believe. I can't remember the number but the nurse was not concerned. My BP has been running a bit high for several years but not medication high and I am hoping that it may have come down since my weight loss and diet change. Do statins have an effect on BG levels?

I will check out the references that you have linked.... many thanks for those.

Unfortunately I have been indulging in grapes and even worse a few sultanas in my porridge on a morning and the odd prune or two when I was desperate for a sweet hit as well as blueberries and cherries and fruits of the forest and strawberries and apples and pears and the odd banana. I've cut right back on bread and only wholemeal (low GI), no potatoes other than sweet potatoes, a packet of microwave whole grains which did me 3 meals, and a bit of wholemeal pasta a couple of times. I have had salmon and liver and lean pork medallions and lean minced beef and no added sugar baked beans and plenty of eggs as protein sources and low fat/fat free/no added sugar dairy produce like yoghurt and quark and the odd little chunk of mature Cheddar when I really needed a savoury flavour hit. And of course lots of veggies and salad. I have probably been consuming 3-5 portions of fruit a day, but I am now cutting back on that. Just out of curiosity, are olives class as fruit? I have been using those a snack which might increase that fruit tally.
I did buy a bar of 70% cocoa chocolate and I have a square every now and then when I am ready to chew my fingers off! I was a Cadbury's Dairy Milk girl but I am trying to re-educate my palate. The bar has lasted 4 weeks so far with a third left so it will be a slow process!

@Drummer
I am leaning towards your thoughts regarding fats but it is just a gut feeling for me and since I am so new to this disease and do not have enough knowledge to make an informed opinion yet. I don't think the fats will necessarily bring down my BG but I do feel that natural fats from meat and fish are probably healthier than processed fats from vegetables. I love fatty meat to the point that, apart from the liver, I have been finding lean meat almost not worth the effort of eating it. Just no joy in it whatsoever.
I have been getting cramps in my right leg in the night and I did wonder if that was due to the lack of salt.
I really appreciate your input, but will be waiting to discuss the situation with the dietician before changing things too drastically in that direction.

@Pumper_Sue
Thanks for that information. I will ask about it but I think my health care team may be considering that possibility now since they are talking about me perhaps needing insulin.

@travellor
Thanks for confirming that possibility. In some respects it helps to know that my dietary efforts may not be enough to deal with this because not seeing any improvement despite my best efforts was disheartening and trying to stick to this long term was making the future look pretty grim.... I love food and the past 5 weeks have taken a lot of the joy out of it.

 

[Pumper_Sue]

@Pumper_Sue
Thanks for that information. I will ask about it but I think my health care team may be considering that possibility now since they are talking about me perhaps needing insulin.

Please ring up for an urgent apt to be seen by a Dr. Take a urine sample so that you can be tested for ketones
Type1 waits for no one and you could end up seriously ill if not treated immediately.
As to being told to keep your numbers below 20, I am shocked beyond belief. Your aim is between 5 and 6 before meals.
As you obviously need insulin you wont achieve that goal without it.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I did a low fat diet with the support of the NHS.
We used a meter to tailor the diet to my BG readings, and I had no issues cutting out fats, and eating low GI.
I then did the Newcastle diet, which is 800 calories, predominantly carbs, again with no issues.
I took statins.

I didn't feel tired, I still went to the gym, I exercised, I didn't lose muscle.
I just burnt fat off my body, and reversed my diabetes.
That's how the body works.
Feast or famine has been will us since the stone age.
Fast, you put on weight.
Famine, you burn fat.
You have to get well down the starvation scale before you notice an issue.

I started out morbidly obese, and finished at the bottom end of the healthy BMI.
But I did reverse my type 2 there.

If you have lost 1.5 stones in 5 weeks, no matter what you are eating, you are not only using every calorie that you are eating, you are burning body fat.
Grapes and sultanas won't be raising your BG, as you are using every calorie you eat, then some.
Your BG should be reflecting this.

There is more investigation needed.

 

[rebrascora]

@Pumper_Sue
Just rang the surgery and explained the situation and the main GP whose practice it is, is going to ring me back this afternoon.

I have to say, reading that Maggie Davies letter to newly diagnosed Diabetes sufferers was a bit of an eye opener and did concern me when I found that my BG has not been even close to the normal range for over a month and probably for a long time before that, maybe even years.. It actually went as high as 29 a few weeks ago when I had a naughty moment and had two thirds of a packet of Jacobs Salt and Vinegar Crackers and that reading was the following afternoon, not the day of my indiscretion. I didn't realise how serious these levels are and whilst I knew that 20 was too high and the nurse was really saying that under 20 was a reasonable goal for me, but not ideal, I didn't understand how much lower I needed to be to be getting close to normal or the seriousness of the risk of being significantly over that level for such a long period. I do wonder if other factors like me not being significantly overweight (now not overweight at all) and not having high cholesterol or blood pressure has encouraged them to try to control this with oral medication and diet first and I can understand them wanting to do that. I would rather start low and build up to the serious stuff rather than go straight in with the strongest medicine and no one wants to have to inject if they don't need to, but I am a little rattled by the risks..
Will update when I have spoken to the doc.

Many thanks for your input.

Barbara

 

[Pumper_Sue]

Hi Barbara,
If you have type 1 diabetes no amount of medication will help you. Type1 is an autoimmune condition and the only treatment is injectable insulin.
Please do understand that you have done nothing to cause the condition. Tell the Dr., point blank how little you are eating how unwell you feel and how your numbers still will not go down and are in fact rising and ask him if you are type1 instead of type2.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

@Pumper_Sue
Just rang the surgery and explained the situation and the main GP whose practice it is, is going to ring me back this afternoon.

I have to say, reading that Maggie Davies letter to newly diagnosed Diabetes sufferers was a bit of an eye opener and did concern me when I found that my BG has not been even close to the normal range for over a month and probably for a long time before that, maybe even years.. It actually went as high as 29 a few weeks ago when I had a naughty moment and had two thirds of a packet of Jacobs Salt and Vinegar Crackers and that reading was the following afternoon, not the day of my indiscretion. I didn't realise how serious these levels are and whilst I knew that 20 was too high and the nurse was really saying that under 20 was a reasonable goal for me, but not ideal, I didn't understand how much lower I needed to be to be getting close to normal or the seriousness of the risk of being significantly over that level for such a long period. I do wonder if other factors like me not being significantly overweight (now not overweight at all) and not having high cholesterol or blood pressure has encouraged them to try to control this with oral medication and diet first and I can understand them wanting to do that. I would rather start low and build up to the serious stuff rather than go straight in with the strongest medicine and no one wants to have to inject if they don't need to, but I am a little rattled by the risks..
Will update when I have spoken to the doc.

Many thanks for your input.

Barbara

Don't let them fob you off.
All the best for the appointment.

 

[Ljc]

Thanks @Pumper_Sue for your post re T1 , I am sorry to say I never even gave that a thought.

@rebrascora . Please take Pumper_Sue ‘s very wise advise ASAP. T1 is managed differently to T2 as you need insulin urgently from the outset.

Whether or not they are considering you may have another type of diabetes I cannot say, you see, there are more people with T2 on insulin (I @m one of them) than their are people with T1 in the country .

The reason I asked about statins is because a few people have had problems with them , some had muscle weakness. ect.

One thing to keep in mind is that diabetes is veryy indivuial, we give advise on what has worked for us , the best advise I can give you is, if you have T2 then eat to your meter. Many of us tolerate berries better th@n other fruits

Another is, if you should suddenly start to feel very unwell, then get to A & E .

Don’t fear insulin. Our bodies produce it naturally, it’s just that some of us need to inject it because we are resistant to our own , not producing enough or any.

Please let us know how you get on.

 

[Drummer]

Good grief - when I started out I was aiming for numbers less than 8 after eating, and after a while saw under 7 - I even saw 5.6 after Christmas dinner, though that was after months of low carb.
I don't follow the reasoning behind less than 20 at all.
The foods you chose - for a type two diabetic were really bad news - sweet potatoes spike me more than normal ones - they have more carbs than normal ones - but all those 'healthy' choices just do not work - we who cannot deal with carbs need to return to the good old fashioned diet which got us to where we are today (in evolutionary terms).
Even if you lack insulin, the modern intake of carbs does make many people feel off their game - there are copies of Dr Atkins books on line free to download, and low carb forums available with many reports of the difference lower carbs made.
My LCHF diet is one I hope to keep to for decades - I am just short of 68 years old.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Good grief - when I started out I was aiming for numbers less than 8 after eating, and after a while saw under 7 - I even saw 5.6 after Christmas dinner, though that was after months of low carb.
I don't follow the reasoning behind less than 20 at all.
The foods you chose - for a type two diabetic were really bad news - sweet potatoes spike me more than normal ones - they have more carbs than normal ones - but all those 'healthy' choices just do not work - we who cannot deal with carbs need to return to the good old fashioned diet which got us to where we are today (in evolutionary terms).
Even if you lack insulin, the modern intake of carbs does make many people feel off their game - there are copies of Dr Atkins books on line free to download, and low carb forums available with many reports of the difference lower carbs made.
My LCHF diet is one I hope to keep to for decades - I am just short of 68 years old.

Erm?
Most of us are happy with normal BG.

You can choose to go ultra low, but that's like way below the normal non diabetic population, and an amazingly restrictive way to live.

and
"Even if you lack insulin"

Your lifestyle won't exactly work for type 1's.
Just saying.
Really, really bad advice?

Back to sensible advice for the op?
Seek more testing for type 1, even you can agree to that?

 

[rebrascora]

Hi again.
Thanks for the input everyone. Doctor was incredibly busy today and when I rang at 5.50pm he still had 10 more calls before mine so I suggested that I could wait until tomorrow. I'm thinking that I would rather discuss it with a doctor who is clear minded at the start of the day rather than jaded at the end of a long day and since my levels have been very high for weeks, I don't think I will die overnight.... hope that isn't a case of famous last words!!
I have done a little more testing today after reading the links provided and I am wondering whether I am starting to see some progress although granted I have eaten next to nothing today. I have had no fruit other than a few lemon and herb olives (maybe 8-10 of them over the course of the day) and just water to drink and in fact nothing else since my porridge at breakfast and my BG got down to 10.6 at 3pm but had come back up to 11.9 half an hour ago, without having eaten anything and been out and had some exercise.
I will be having a fillet of salmon with broccoli and sweet potatoes in an hour or two. I did wonder about the sweet potatoes since "sweet" is in the name. Maybe waxy potatoes would be better?? Anyway, I am wondering if perhaps the Gliclazide is starting to work (today is only day 3 on it) and perhaps an increase in that might be enough to bring me down to normal levels and allow me to eat
Anyway, I feel more comfortable about testing more often now and what I am trying to achieve by testing, so many thanks for pointing me in the right direction with that and I will update tomorrow with result of chat with doc.
Thanks so much everyone. I really appreciate your guidance and input. I understand that my body may not react the same as others both to different foods and medication (for what it is worth I consider insulin to be medication too) I just couldn't figure out how testing twice a day, 2 or 3 times a week was going to tell me anything and clearly it isn't and I need to test much more frequently.

 

[Drummer]

Erm?
Most of us are happy with normal BG.
You can choose to go ultra low, but that's like way below the normal non diabetic population, and an amazingly restrictive way to live.
and
"Even if you lack insulin"
Your lifestyle won't exactly work for type 1's.
Just saying.
Really, really bad advice?
Back to sensible advice for the op?
Seek more testing for type 1, even you can agree to that?

But I am not ultra low - at least 50 gm of carbs a day didn't feel like ultra low.
The OP is eating potatoes and other high carb foods, grapes sultanas crackers blueberries apples bananas and so much more - and is showing as type two - so I don't understand your post really

 

[Jojo catwoman]

Thank you for your kind words and I hope you get sorted soon. The specialist nurse at my surgery wanted me to go on to insulin after only 2 weeks. I wanted to continue with medication and diet. I have since been told by 2 senior doctors and 2 nurses that her approach was totally wrong.
This is quite a complicated condition and is different for many. I look forward to hearing about your progress.
Take care.

 

[Drummer]

Rebrascora, if you are taking Gliclazide, you should be testing regularly all day - it is a glucose lowering drug and can cause hypos.
If you drive you have to know you are legal to drive - consult your dr or nurse or see the guidance online from the licencing people.
You can eat lots of things as a type two diabetic, only carbs affect your blood glucose. Protein and fats should be the starting point for meal planning, but if you are on a fixed dose of Glicazide then you need to ensure that you counteract the insulin it hammers out of your pancreas or you could have hypos.
Reducing down to a level of carbs which some type twos eat without medication could be dangerous, it is a very powerful tool.
If you don't see lower numbers when eating low carb then there is something amiss - but porridge to start the day and potatoes to end it isn't low carb.