Technical/scientific curiosities - who to ask?

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Amyfaith

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Me again! I’ve collated a list of questions that are bugging me - and they’re all of a scientific/technical nature. The Learning Zone feels a tad basic, and GP is next to impossible to get in to (and very much personifies the ‘general’ aspect). I really need a tame endocrinologist/nutritionist, I think, but failing that - anyone here that might be able to help out, either technically or anecdotally based on experience? They’re not questions specific to me - just type 2 more broadly, and some more technical glucose measurement queries. I suspect some are the sort of thing that if we knew, we could beat this easily, but that’s my brain for you.

And just in case - they’re not about streamlining/hacking anything. Obviously management of diabetes is long-term hard work, and I’m generally doing alright-ish and I’m happy if my GP is happy. More just genuine curiosities that knowing the answers to will just help me understand the condition more.

(Will post the questions if anyone is willing to give it a go!)
 
Me again! I’ve collated a list of questions that are bugging me - and they’re all of a scientific/technical nature. The Learning Zone feels a tad basic, and GP is next to impossible to get in to (and very much personifies the ‘general’ aspect). I really need a tame endocrinologist/nutritionist, I think, but failing that - anyone here that might be able to help out, either technically or anecdotally based on experience? They’re not questions specific to me - just type 2 more broadly, and some more technical glucose measurement queries. I suspect some are the sort of thing that if we knew, we could beat this easily, but that’s my brain for you.

And just in case - they’re not about streamlining/hacking anything. Obviously management of diabetes is long-term hard work, and I’m generally doing alright-ish and I’m happy if my GP is happy. More just genuine curiosities that knowing the answers to will just help me understand the condition more.

(Will post the questions if anyone is willing to give it a go!)
Post away with your question, people with lots of experience here.
 
There’s a lot. I’ve put them into broad categories:

BG testing:
Is one or two hour post eating more important?

Does the rise at 2 hours matter so long as it stays below 8.5? (Does the 2-3 mmol rise max come from anywhere? Do I need to minimise the rise at 1-2 hrs or just keep it to 3mmol/8.5 max?) I ask because all meals are well below 8.5 in general at 2 hours, usually below 7.0, and my rise is usually about 1mmol, so can I eat a little more normally or should I minimise ups and downs? (I am tempted to find out what my carb tolerance for 3mmol rise max actually is…)

Is it specifically how *long* BG is raised rather than how high it is raised that we are trying to impact? (Eg: spike to whatever - but it needs to come down to normalish right-quick, thus a blunted peak?) or am I oversimplifying?

Hba1c:
How does avg glucose translate to a1c (not mathematically - eg, is a one off treat meal going to raise it? Once every three months? Monthly? Bimonthly?)? Once RBCs are glycated, they stay that way - so in theory a ‘treat’ close to an hba1c could actually raise it even though you’re otherwise in the green?

How long does it take for glucose to attach to red blood cells? (I think I’m trying to understand the 2 hour testing logic.)

General ‘other’ impacts on BG
Why does exercise raise BG in general that day but the next day is lower? (Might just be me.)

If stress plays a part (adrenaline -> glucose released for fight/flight), then surely mental health is paramount? Why is is left behind and food focussed on?

Other:
Why do people say (very?) low carb makes insulin resistance worse?

And, fine, this one is specific to me but it is curious:
My husband has kindly offered his own fingers for pricking and he’s always within .2 of me at the same time after the same meal. Not diabetic as far as we know, and even if he was I’d expect less similar measurements. What’s happening there?
 
Post away @Amyfaith

Just remember that people will be offering their opinions, amd things they’ve perhaps picked up over the years, but they aren’t medically qualified, and suggestions won’t necessarily reflect a balanced summary of current clinical evidence.
 
Post away @Amyfaith

Just remember that people will be offering their opinions, amd things they’ve perhaps picked up over the years, but they aren’t medically qualified, and suggestions won’t necessarily reflect a balanced summary of current clinical evidence.
Of course! And hopefully if people don’t know, then they’ll say (which is of course absolutely fine!).
 
Hba1c:
How does avg glucose translate to a1c (not mathematically - eg, is a one off treat meal going to raise it? Once every three months? Monthly? Bimonthly?)? Once RBCs are glycated, they stay that way - so in theory a ‘treat’ close to an hba1c could actually raise it even though you’re otherwise in the green
The HbA1c is an average of your results over the past three months. The time scale is based on the time that the blood cells survive. The average will be weighted by the more recent glycated cells. I think a treat just before your test is unlikely to impact your test greatly (I tend to go for my treat after the test -always a bacon butty and a coffee from my favourite cafe)

General ‘other’ impacts on BG
Why does exercise raise BG in general that day but the next day is lower? (Might just be me.)
It depends on the type of exercise that you do, although I am unsure whether this is the same for all types of Diabetes, so bear in mind I am Type 1. If I do gentle exercise my glucose levels will go down. If I do high intensity exercise my levels will rise, as my body is prompted to release some of the stored glucose.
 
I will leave the others to Type 2s
 
Is it specifically how *long* BG is raised rather than how high it is raised that we are trying to impact? (Eg: spike to whatever - but it needs to come down to normalish right-quick, thus a blunted peak?) or am I oversimplifying?
afaiu there's no consensus on this point, though one might assume that the sum of the area under the curve above some threshold (i.e. mmol/l x hours) is one important factor. With that said I have seen mention that oscillatory BG is not good, though all people (including non-diabetics) have somewhat oscillatory BG so there's presumably some level that is acceptable, which leads back to the no consensus answer.

Hba1c:
How does avg glucose translate to a1c (not mathematically - eg, is a one off treat meal going to raise it? Once every three months? Monthly? Bimonthly?)? Once RBCs are glycated, they stay that way - so in theory a ‘treat’ close to an hba1c could actually raise it even though you’re otherwise in the green?
Yes, closer to the blood test is worse than further away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyca...than the levels in days further from the test.
This is presumably based on the distribution of red blood cell lifespans and the fact that they don't all last exactly the nominal 117 days for men and 106 days in women.
Also from the wikipedia article, though without a reference: "Once a hemoglobin molecule is glycated, it remains that way"

How long does it take for glucose to attach to red blood cells? (I think I’m trying to understand the 2 hour testing logic.)
Not sure, this is likely a probabilistic thing. The 2h testing logic is more, afaiu, because in non-diabetics BG should be back to normal within this time period (though one assumes this may depend somewhat on what and how much was eaten.)

General ‘other’ impacts on BG
Why does exercise raise BG in general that day but the next day is lower? (Might just be me.)
Depends what the exercise is. All exercise causes the body some level of stress, this induces the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose. The level of stress determines how large the rise due to this glucose will be. Typically low intensity endurance exercise (e.g. walking) produces no hepatic glucose rise (so BG will tend to trend downwards as it's used), cycling gently might produce a flat line (some hepatic glucose, but also consumption by the muscles), cycling harder or doing anaerobic exercises (sprinting, weight lifting, etc.) will cause the liver to release more glucose than is used immediately.

Post-exercise, the muscles replenish their glycogen stores from glucose in the blood stream, as does the liver. Both of these will produce a drop in BG, though this may lag quite a long way as the body tends to remain in a stressed state for some time post-exercise. The muscles also become more insulin sensitive during and after exercise, which means that less insulin is required to allow glucose to pass into the muscles to be used or stored.

If stress plays a part (adrenaline -> glucose released for fight/flight), then surely mental health is paramount? Why is is left behind and food focussed on?
Stress tends to increase blood glucose levels as you mention (e.g. job interviews, pre-match nerves), it's probably easier to control food quantities than stress.
 
When trying to reduce my HbA1c into the 30s I reduced my intake of carbs. I was eating no more than 50gm a day, so I reduced to no more than 40.My numbers after eating did go down, but my HbA1c stayed the same.
 
afaiu there's no consensus on this point, though one might assume that the sum of the area under the curve above some threshold (i.e. mmol/l x hours) is one important factor. With that said I have seen mention that oscillatory BG is not good, though all people (including non-diabetics) have somewhat oscillatory BG so there's presumably some level that is acceptable, which leads back to the no consensus answer.


Yes, closer to the blood test is worse than further away: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycated_hemoglobin#:~:text=Therefore, glucose levels on days nearer to the test contribute substantially more to the level of A1c than the levels in days further from the test.
This is presumably based on the distribution of red blood cell lifespans and the fact that they don't all last exactly the nominal 117 days for men and 106 days in women.
Also from the wikipedia article, though without a reference: "Once a hemoglobin molecule is glycated, it remains that way"


Not sure, this is likely a probabilistic thing. The 2h testing logic is more, afaiu, because in non-diabetics BG should be back to normal within this time period (though one assumes this may depend somewhat on what and how much was eaten.)


Depends what the exercise is. All exercise causes the body some level of stress, this induces the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose. The level of stress determines how large the rise due to this glucose will be. Typically low intensity endurance exercise (e.g. walking) produces no hepatic glucose rise (so BG will tend to trend downwards as it's used), cycling gently might produce a flat line (some hepatic glucose, but also consumption by the muscles), cycling harder or doing anaerobic exercises (sprinting, weight lifting, etc.) will cause the liver to release more glucose than is used immediately.

Post-exercise, the muscles replenish their glycogen stores from glucose in the blood stream, as does the liver. Both of these will produce a drop in BG, though this may lag quite a long way as the body tends to remain in a stressed state for some time post-exercise. The muscles also become more insulin sensitive during and after exercise, which means that less insulin is required to allow glucose to pass into the muscles to be used or stored.


Stress tends to increase blood glucose levels as you mention (e.g. job interviews, pre-match nerves), it's probably easier to control food quantities than stress.
Simon has given a very detailed answer but just want to add something regarding oscillatory patterns of insulin medication which would be very interested in the responses.
I would anticipate that with insulin medication you will get by nature in what you are trying to balance more oscillatory movement and hence have a more volatile BG curve than if you are on certain types of non insulin medication.
I have yet to have it proven that this pattern is overall more beneficial than a more typical insulin pattern but logically to me the flatter the line with less variance is more desirable than one of peaks and troughs even if the average figures are similar.
I use insulin so concentrate on managing the peaks and troughs within the targeted zone and also take into account the other variables like exercise/ diet etc but wonder if people’s experience of non insulin medications so more likely Type 2 patients have less oscillatory peaks and troughs hence the current guidelines of maximum levels 2 hours post meal are more relevant.
ATB
 
Depends what the exercise is. All exercise causes the body some level of stress, this induces the liver to convert stored glycogen into glucose. The level of stress determines how large the rise due to this glucose will be. Typically low intensity endurance exercise (e.g. walking) produces no hepatic glucose rise (so BG will tend to trend downwards as it's used), cycling gently might produce a flat line (some hepatic glucose, but also consumption by the muscles), cycling harder or doing anaerobic exercises (sprinting, weight lifting, etc.) will cause the liver to release more glucose than is used immediately.
Yes, exercise CAN cause stress on the body and stress can raise BG. But one person's definition of "cycling hard" is another person's definition of going for a pootle along the flat tow path.
I think this is illustrated by my experience when cycling. I am fit but not super fit.
- an hour long pootle along the tow path on a nice day will have little impact on my BG.
- a 45 minute intensive Spin class (probably fits with your description of "cycling hard") will see my BG plummet.
- a 20 minute grind up a steep hill against the wind in the rain (my definition of an uncomfortable, stressful, hard cycle) will see my BG rise.

Duration is also important as a longer activity will give the muscles time to "soak up" the glucose (remember, the liver is dumping glucose because the body needs it). This is why HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) can lead to a raise in BG - the intervals are long enough for the liver to start its dump but not long enough for the muscles to soak up the glucose.

And, your starting BG can also make a difference. If your BG is too high (again something that varies from person to person), this can cause additional strain making exercise harder and raising BG further.

So, yes, it depends upon what the exercise is but also depends upon the person's fitness at that exercise (my results for running are very different to the cycling), the environment (weather, heat, how much they are enjoying it) and the duration.

As a result, while "science" is useful, it is difficult to predict what the impact of your exercise on your body for the duration you want/can in your environment. today. But, whatever exercise you do, the long term impacts are worth it .. and not just for the impact on your insulin resistance/sensitivity.
 
There’s a lot. I’ve put them into broad categories:

BG testing:
Is one or two hour post eating more important?

Does the rise at 2 hours matter so long as it stays below 8.5? (Does the 2-3 mmol rise max come from anywhere? Do I need to minimise the rise at 1-2 hrs or just keep it to 3mmol/8.5 max?) I ask because all meals are well below 8.5 in general at 2 hours, usually below 7.0, and my rise is usually about 1mmol, so can I eat a little more normally or should I minimise ups and downs? (I am tempted to find out what my carb tolerance for 3mmol rise max actually is…)

Is it specifically how *long* BG is raised rather than how high it is raised that we are trying to impact? (Eg: spike to whatever - but it needs to come down to normalish right-quick, thus a blunted peak?) or am I oversimplifying?

Hba1c:
How does avg glucose translate to a1c (not mathematically - eg, is a one off treat meal going to raise it? Once every three months? Monthly? Bimonthly?)? Once RBCs are glycated, they stay that way - so in theory a ‘treat’ close to an hba1c could actually raise it even though you’re otherwise in the green?

How long does it take for glucose to attach to red blood cells? (I think I’m trying to understand the 2 hour testing logic.)

General ‘other’ impacts on BG
Why does exercise raise BG in general that day but the next day is lower? (Might just be me.)

If stress plays a part (adrenaline -> glucose released for fight/flight), then surely mental health is paramount? Why is is left behind and food focussed on?

Other:
Why do people say (very?) low carb makes insulin resistance worse?

And, fine, this one is specific to me but it is curious:
My husband has kindly offered his own fingers for pricking and he’s always within .2 of me at the same time after the same meal. Not diabetic as far as we know, and even if he was I’d expect less similar measurements. What’s happening there?
Q: Is one or two hour post eating more important?
A: Each gives different information, but for a wet finger in the air interpretation, I would suggest the 2 hour gives a better idea.

Some feel the one hour point illustrates the top of the rise, but fat heavy meals this may simply not be the case. Fat slows the blood glucose rise, so any peak may come much later than an hour (or in some cases, even 2 hour) mark.

Q: Does the rise at 2 hours matter so long as it stays below 8.5? (Does the 2-3 mmol rise max come from anywhere? Do I need to minimise the rise at 1-2 hrs or just keep it to 3mmol/8.5 max?) I ask because all meals are well below 8.5 in general at 2 hours, usually below 7.0, and my rise is usually about 1mmol, so can I eat a little more normally or should I minimise ups and downs? (I am tempted to find out what my carb tolerance for 3mmol rise max actually is…)

Is it specifically how *long* BG is raised rather than how high it is raised that we are trying to impact? (Eg: spike to whatever - but it needs to come down to normalish right-quick, thus a blunted peak?) or am I oversimplifying?
A: As has already been said there's no definitive answer to this at the moment. Personally, I go for time in the Bell Curve as a measure of the impact of any given food. Again, personally, I was influenced by my reaction to pasts. Eating pasta, I found I experienced a very modest rise, but rise was very sustained - well in excess of 2 hours, or even 4 hours. So, for me, pasta wasn't doing me any favours. I just gave up pasta to be honest.

In the intervening period my Endo has recommended a strictly gluten free diet, due to another condition.

Q: Hba1c: How does avg glucose translate to a1c (not mathematically - eg, is a one off treat meal going to raise it? Once every three months? Monthly? Bimonthly?)? Once RBCs are glycated, they stay that way - so in theory a ‘treat’ close to an hba1c could actually raise it even though you’re otherwise in the green?

My understanding is the HbA1c test roughly reflects average blood glucose over a 3 month period, but in reality, so people turn over red blood cells more rapidly/slowly than others.

It is recognised that any HbA1c score will be influced more by the couple of week, immediately prior to the test, that the period further back. So, I would suggest if some form of treat is desired, then after the test will be less likely to influece the result than just before. Of course, that said, a single episode or even a couple of episodes is unlikely to materially change a result.

Again, my understanding is once glycated a red blood cell remains in that state until it expires and is replaced be a brabd spanking new cell.

Q: General ‘other’ impacts on BG
Why does exercise raise BG in general that day but the next day is lower? (Might just be me.)
A: In my own case, exercise can have a variable impact on my blood sugars. Gentle exercise, like a decent stroll will lower my numbers and sometimes quite dramatically (depending on the starting point), whereas vigorous exercise will raise my blood sugars for a period, then they will drop for a time. That is usually attributed to your liver releasing stored glucose to help fuel the exercise, then afterwards, replenishing it's stores again, explaining the lower post-exercise numbers and sometimes for a period.

Q: If stress plays a part (adrenaline -> glucose released for fight/flight), then surely mental health is paramount? Why is is left behind and food focussed on?
A: Stress does indeed play a part in blood glucose numbers, and for me, sustained stress is one thing I can be assured will notch me up. Fortunately, my life isn't generally too stressful.

Your question on focus; there is no doubt mental health is very important - overall, not just for blood glucose management, but in T2, there is little question that, certainly initially, if we are looking to manage our condition meds-free, or with minimal medications, then the stand-out tool in that is what enters our digestive system.

Q: Other:
Why do people say (very?) low carb makes insulin resistance worse?
A; Very low carb can induce a state called physiological insulin resistance which is a bit different to the more standard insuling resistance. For those who experience it, it is often (I'm tempted to go usually, but will be conservate here) possible to reset this by breaking the routine with a higher, or for some and even lower carb day or two. By higher carb, I don't mean full on chips, pizza and doughnuts, I just mean a nudge up in the carb numbers.

There is quite a bit written about physiological insulin resistance which is readily findable, via DrGoogle.Q: My husband has kindly offered his own fingers for pricking and he’s always within .2 of me at the same time after the same meal. Not diabetic as far as we know, and even if he was I’d expect less similar measurements. What’s happening there?

Q: My husband has kindly offered his own fingers for pricking and he’s always within .2 of me at the same time after the same meal. Not diabetic as far as we know, and even if he was I’d expect less similar measurements. What’s happening there?
A: That's impossible to answer, without knowing more about those numbers and what is consumed prior to them being taken.

It might also be useful for your husband to have an A1c test at some point, just to ensure he's in good shape.

0.2 is pretty close though, and I doubt any two T2s strictly shadow another's readings - especially in the early-ish period.

You clearly are curious about all of this, and I see that as being a good thing. For me, understanding and acceptance go hand-in-hand. If you haven't already, it might be worthwhile you taking up Abbott's offer of a trial Libre sensor.

Each sensor lasts 2 weeks and broadly track your blood glucose 24/7. I say broadly because it measures sugas in interstitial fluids, not blood. Broadly speaking, a Libre reading reflects a blood glucose reading of 10/15 minutes earlier, but it is a great tool to see what's actually going on. What peaks and troughs are and how long glucose actually remains elevated after any given eating or drinking episode.

I'm not advocating full-time use of the Libre, but I have learned a lot about how my body works by wearing a sensor from time to time.

I hope I've made a decent fist of responding to your questions.

Apologies for the gazillion typos, but shout if anything is unintelligible.
 
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Oooooooops. That was a long one. 🙂
 
Everyone's blood glucose changes up and down throughout every single day of their lives - however most people without diabetes never test theirs on an ongoing basis so are completely unaware that this happens! ie your husband is 100% normal - I'm sure must husbands like to feel they're superior beings but as far as this is concerned I can assure you they ain't! 😉
 
Yes, exercise CAN cause stress on the body and stress can raise BG. But one person's definition of "cycling hard" is another person's definition of going for a pootle along the flat tow path.
I think this is illustrated by my experience when cycling. I am fit but not super fit.
- an hour long pootle along the tow path on a nice day will have little impact on my BG.
- a 45 minute intensive Spin class (probably fits with your description of "cycling hard") will see my BG plummet.
- a 20 minute grind up a steep hill against the wind in the rain (my definition of an uncomfortable, stressful, hard cycle) will see my BG rise.
I think my definition of cycling hard fits your last category (i.e. rise in BG), gentle cycling (for me at least) is the first one. I don't ever see BG plummeting while cycling unless I have IoB or I've not adjusted basal and I'm many hours into a ride (though when I first started cycling this would of course happen sooner).

As you say, it depends very much on fitness and I think also what you're used to as mental stress also severely affects glucose production.

Duration is also important as a longer activity will give the muscles time to "soak up" the glucose (remember, the liver is dumping glucose because the body needs it). This is why HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training) can lead to a raise in BG - the intervals are long enough for the liver to start its dump but not long enough for the muscles to soak up the glucose.
Absolutely, the muscles require some time to become more sensitive to insulin (which I believe is by changes to their cell walls.) I don't know off-hand how long this takes, but would be interesting to see what the journal papers have to say about it. Also the liver either down-regulates of runs out of (or low "of") glycogen - so I'd find that after about 1h30 - 2h any stress response hepatic glucose production is pretty much done (this may of course be to do with the stress hormone half-life or the body realising there's no longer a flight or flight response needed, rather than the level of hepatic glucose).

As long as I pedal at a reasonable pace (i.e. the normal "no-change for short duration pace") I don't need vast amounts of carbs - my 200km ride last week was done with an average of about 15g/CHO per hour (with basal reduction.) I did have a bit of a cold though so was running a bit high in the days before and since. It's a bit different every time of course 😉
 
@SimonP afaiu there's no consensus on this point, though one might assume that the sum of the area under the curve above some threshold (i.e. mmol/l x hours) is one important factor. With that said I have seen mention that oscillatory BG is not good, though all people (including non-diabetics) have somewhat oscillatory BG so there's presumably some level that is acceptable, which leads back to the no consensus answer.
I had a feeling that might be the case. Obviously loads of ups and downs aren't good for anyone, diabetic or not, but I'm a little muddled on precisely what we're attempting to control here - long-term higher levels, peaks, or what exactly. Seems to me that for type 2s there would be very different tactics used here depending on what we're looking to improve.
@SimonP Not sure, this is likely a probabilistic thing. The 2h testing logic is more, afaiu, because in non-diabetics BG should be back to normal within this time period (though one assumes this may depend somewhat on what and how much was eaten.)
It's that 'depends' that puts question marks in my mind. Depends how much? On which? Given we don't generally test non-diabetics BG, it feels as if there's a lot of presumption going on here (though surely someone's done the baseline research!).
@SimonP Stress tends to increase blood glucose levels as you mention (e.g. job interviews, pre-match nerves), it's probably easier to control food quantities than stress.
I figured it was this, but it does rather disturb me that my GP ignored me when I spoke about mental health struggles impacting my readings... seems to me it's a bit of both.
 
When trying to reduce my HbA1c into the 30s I reduced my intake of carbs. I was eating no more than 50gm a day, so I reduced to no more than 40.My numbers after eating did go down, but my HbA1c stayed the same.
See, this is why I wonder about BG and converting into Hba1c numbers. Is this just because we're (potentially) missing something when we're not finger pricking? Best I can tell, the two tests measure different things, but I can't totally work out what.
 
Simon has given a very detailed answer but just want to add something regarding oscillatory patterns of insulin medication which would be very interested in the responses.
I would anticipate that with insulin medication you will get by nature in what you are trying to balance more oscillatory movement and hence have a more volatile BG curve than if you are on certain types of non insulin medication.
I have yet to have it proven that this pattern is overall more beneficial than a more typical insulin pattern but logically to me the flatter the line with less variance is more desirable than one of peaks and troughs even if the average figures are similar.
I use insulin so concentrate on managing the peaks and troughs within the targeted zone and also take into account the other variables like exercise/ diet etc but wonder if people’s experience of non insulin medications so more likely Type 2 patients have less oscillatory peaks and troughs hence the current guidelines of maximum levels 2 hours post meal are more relevant.
ATB
I have absolutely no idea but this is fascinating - I'm guessing the underlying theory is a flat line is a line that stays in range/doesn't do damage long-term.
 
Hmm - this does jive with what I know about Type 2 being about a body being slow to remove glucose in the bloodstream - if you look, the higher HbA1cs never get as low after peaking as they do overnight. I'd be interested in seeing what a metabolically 'normal' person's daily variation looks like for comparison.
 
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