Rising after 3 hours!?

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Wonky

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Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Hi, I be had a pattern develop over the last week of eating my usual type evening meal, c30-40g carbs with vegetables and small protein then desert. e.g. salad, fish, coleslaw magnum/sml cheesecake. Readings steady or fairly flat until about hour 3 the rising from around 6/7 to 9/10
Am bolusing straight after eating due to the fibre and fat content . This has normally worked but not the last week. Any ideas? P S don't always have desert but it's my treat since giving up wine on diagnosis last year.
 
Mmmm...i read somewhere that if you eat under a certain amount of carbs your body willl use protein and or fat to produce glucose and his may mean fats and protein have to be carb counted. The amount varies per person but you aren't really low carb. What happens if you have more carbs?
Also, all your carbs are in pudding with fats...the low carb main meal may slow down carb absorbtion...what happens if you put more carbs, without fat, into your meal, eg boiled potato?

You say its just over last week. Has anything else changed?
 
Gary Scheiner in "Think Like a Pancreas" says 30gms of carbs in a main meal is enough to stop the conversion of proteins and fats into glucose.

What is the profile of Fiasp? Is it running out of steam after 3 hrs?
 
I guess the protein is having an effect too @Wonky along with the combination of foods. You’d find it easier probably to have some proper carbs with your meal, eg potato, sweet potato, rice, quinoa, etc. It just makes control that much easier. I appreciate you had carbs in the dessert, but, again, I find those carbs can be less predictable than proper carbs (I’m using proper to mean common meal accompaniments).

You’re saying this has been happening the last week. This could be due to low level illness, impending illness, a decline in your beta cells if you’re fairly recently diagnosed, stress, the weather, etc.
 
It sounds like you have sorted your plans for meals, and it is irritating when things that have worked before then done. The fickleness of diabetes.

The fat will definitely slow the release of the carbs, but I don’t think your protein will be an issue with the the amounts of carbs you are eating, unless your body is finding it difficult to get to the carbs with the high fat content of puds. (not exactly a technical description I know)

As others have said you may find it easier if your carbs were in the main meal rather than in a pud. You mention that you switched to puds rather than wine at diagnosis. There is no need to eliminate wine due to T1/T1.5. I would find it easier to manage one glass of wine with a meal, than a pud with the fat. With carbs in the main meal, no pud I find I can pre bolus and avoid big spikes.

I do find I I go over 60 g of carbs at a meal my careful plans go a bit awry, so I tend to stick to about the same amount of carbs as you do.

Let us know what solutions you find.
 
Either way, if this is a predictable pattern perhaps delay your bolus insulin or do a split bolus...how long is the action of your bolus insulin for you?
 
Hi All, thank you for so many responses, I don't post often but so nice to gain from others experience.
Fiasp is normally waning after 3hours so the suggestion of having proper carbs with the meal sounds like a good idea. Am not used to eating potatoes etc often but may need to change my habits! Also may still swap for the glass if wine as the pud certainly isn't a particularly good idea, just my idea if a treat and I needed to put a bit of weight back on after diagnosis. Thinking further have probably been colder and slightly less active but still brisk walking every day.
Numbers are not awful but just going the wrong way so appreciate the advice and will try a few of the suggestions over the next few days.
 
I guess the protein is having an effect too @Wonky along with the combination of foods. You’d find it easier probably to have some proper carbs with your meal, eg potato, sweet potato, rice, quinoa, etc. It just makes control that much easier. I appreciate you had carbs in the dessert, but, again, I find those carbs can be less predictable than proper carbs (I’m using proper to mean common meal accompaniments).

You’re saying this has been happening the last week. This could be due to low level illness, impending illness, a decline in your beta cells if you’re fairly recently diagnosed, stress, the weather, etc.
Thanks Inka, I wondered about my poor old beta cells. Perhaps they're declining . I have had nice steady honeymoon period until now (very lucky). Hadn't thought of the weather. So much to think on. Appreciate your thoughts x
 
It sounds like you have sorted your plans for meals, and it is irritating when things that have worked before then done. The fickleness of diabetes.

The fat will definitely slow the release of the carbs, but I don’t think your protein will be an issue with the the amounts of carbs you are eating, unless your body is finding it difficult to get to the carbs with the high fat content of puds. (not exactly a technical description I know)

As others have said you may find it easier if your carbs were in the main meal rather than in a pud. You mention that you switched to puds rather than wine at diagnosis. There is no need to eliminate wine due to T1/T1.5. I would find it easier to manage one glass of wine with a meal, than a pud with the fat. With carbs in the main meal, no pud I find I can pre bolus and avoid big spikes.

I do find I I go over 60 g of carbs at a meal my careful plans go a bit awry, so I tend to stick to about the same amount of carbs as you do.

Let us know what solutions you find.
Thank you, I'll let you know how I get on. Great to have people out there who understand
 
I’ve seen this as well, late night / early morning highs, last night went made upto 18, so at 3:30am I took 2u of nova and it very slowly got me to 7 by the time I woke up!
I think with it being colder I’m not as insulin sensitive, I’ve increased the basal.
I also think having had a load of Greek yoghurt at about 8pm last night that the fat content delayed the spike for hours!
So yes interested in what you learn!
 
My money is on your basal no longer holding you steady probably due to beta cell decline. I had 3 stages where I had to notably increase my basal as my honeymoon period came to an end. They happened about 6 months apart and I had to slowly and steadily increase basal over a period of a few weeks to balance it back up, then it would settle for a few months and then start drifting upwards again. Of course we are all different but you can expect to need to increase your insulin as your honeymoon period comes to an end and it likely won't stop all at once unless something like an illness triggers the immune system to further attack the remaining beta cells. I found my meal ratios stayed the same (1:10) but I needed more basal to keep me steady. Might be worth a basal test if you are seeing a regular pattern.
 
Do your levels go up overnight? If the do that would suggezt a basal problem, but, live previously said, a basal test may be in order.
 
I’ve seen this as well, late night / early morning highs, last night went made upto 18, so at 3:30am I took 2u of nova and it very slowly got me to 7 by the time I woke up!
I think with it being colder I’m not as insulin sensitive, I’ve increased the basal.
I also think having had a load of Greek yoghurt at about 8pm last night that the fat content delayed the spike for hours!
So yes interested in what you learn!
 
Will definitely let you know how I get on
 
Will definitely let you know how I get on
@Wonky, because your basal is Tresiba, be cautious of the siren voices encouraging you to do basal tests (plural).

Tresiba is a very long acting insulin - unlike any other basals. It's profile is claimed to be 40 hrs and that fits my experience, as best anyone can tell. This means today's dose is topping up yesterday's dose and gives Tresiba the potential to be very stable as well as making it inflexible. It has been likened to the user being the Captain of a super container ship on a 3 day crossing of the Atlantic, which needs 2 day's notice for a course change to take effect. This inflexibility can be a benefit.

One's body receives glucose from our liver's glucose store at all times of the day and night in response to an array of hormones that results in the liver releasing glucose. Most of those events happen regardless of anything you or I consciously do and the quantities of glucose released varies a lot. So the basal insulin required is irregular across any one 24 hr period, but despite that irregularity it is possible to identify one's own individual patterns and normal basal tests are frequently done against nominal 8 hr fasting periods. Not so with Tresiba - it releases the insulin evenly (as you might expect) and because of the 40 hr profile and the consequent daily topping up it has very little start up or taper off behaviour. It's just always there. So for most people we optimise our Tresiba to match the need of late evenings and through the night, when we are in effect naturally fasting (and when beauty sleep is important and low alarms are a complete nuisance).

The only decision the user initially needs to make is to mentally identify what is their normal night fasting period - eg 11pm to 7am - and their normal overnight routines. Then from CGM graphs and with no out of your ordinary night snacks or late evening meals you optimise your daily Tresiba dose by adjusting the dose until your Tresiba keeps you steady through the night. Tresiba dose adjustments can need 3 days to take effect, so don't make changes more frequently than that and ideally 4 or even 5 days. Once you've found the dose that keeps you steady(ish) and from which you start and finish in about the same place then that completes the basal testing for now. If you start and end higher than you wish then adjust by bolus correction or exercise to get to a better starting point. Likewise if lower than desired adjust bolus ratios or take an unbolused snack accordingly.

All other parts of the day you can only regulate your BG by the appropriate mix of carbs, bolus and activity. Whatever Tresiba is contributing to help daytime background insulin needs is happening and can't be adjusted by Tresiba changes. For you @Wonky this won't necessarily seem unusual. For individuals who are new to Tresiba but who have grown accustomed to using any other basal with shorter profiles (possibly with years of this experience) they could find the idea of not making frequent basal changes uncomfortable and possibly unacceptable. Tresiba is different; and in the last 2+ yrs I've encountered all sorts of HCPs, including DSNs, instructing me to change my basal dose when that would simply be wrong.

That said you will need to alter your Tresiba doses from time to time. Right now I have a wretched head cold and cough and I've increased my daily Tresiba from 8.5 to 10 units, since it's been noticeable that several nights in a row my BG has steadily risen; this increase is also helping against the daytime increase in my BG because of this coough and cold. I also expect my Tresiba to need adjusting for the change in weather from summer to winter. This latter seasonal change will be a process of trial and learning for me this year. We moved house at the end of July; we don't know how warm the house will be this autumn into winter and we are temporarily 5 in the house until next spring. So the occupancy level, the new heating environment, the temporary smaller bed and increased "snuggle" factor, etc, etc will all have some bearing on my personal insulin sensitivity as well as basal background needs. Also the increased occupancy is changing our daily routines including meal and bed times; so other things for me to keep in mind.

Once I've sorted all that out in the spring we should be back to just 2 of us here and no longer sharing heating bills - so more adjustments in lifestyle to come.

But this is also illustrative that quite often events change behaviours and timings for any one of us during "normal living"; and these changes can either regularly put the Tresiba basal out of kilter or explain one-off mornings after the night had not been so level! This happens to all of us, regardless of our best efforts and the essential thing is to recognise, accept, explain to self if possible, but regardless move on. Today will be different to yesterday.
 
Thanks Proudtobeerratic. I have only changed my Tresiba once due to falling figures overnight, that was months ago and is steady now so will leave that factor out and try and change my carb habits as suggested. Take it from there. Good luck in your new house in and hope it's nice and warm for the sake of the bills as well as your sensitivity
 
Quick update and some more learning under my belt!
It seems I have a very slow digestive system Have had some success with trying "proper" carbs which aren't my usual go to . Potatoes, reasonable. Bread fast but used to that so not having the 3 hour rise. Then pasta lowering from 6.5 to 5 after only 45 minutes and bolusing post meal. Fixing gently and even BG until the 3 hour mark then rising and rising nearer 10 by 4 hours.
So in all good swap from pudding to other carbs but pasta hmmm! May try again when I have a free evening and split bolus (haven't done it before).
Thanks again for everyone's comments. X
 
Before we moved pasta was very infrequent and my bolus arrangements seldom worked! Now pasta is much more frequent- convenient for our daughter and s-i-l as well as our 10yr old grandson loving pasta meals. Bolus arrangements still don't work! According to my CGM they can digest and arrive within 4hrs - or 6hrs - or 8 hrs. So I 'm trying to avoid pasta meals (without being ungrateful for what is put in front of me).
 
Sadly think that's going to be my tack on the pasta too. Don't have much I avoid so a small sacrifice for a bit of knowing roughly what's happening to you BG
 
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