Possible type 3c diagnosis in 5 year old

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Cbendji

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Hi

Firstly thank you to anyone who is able to read and comment on my post.

My two kids (5 year old boy and 1 year old daughter) have a combination of genetic mutations (SPINK1 and two on CFTR gene) that in my son have caused him to develop chronic pancreatitis and exocrine pancreatic insufficiency. My son has had repeated attacks of acute pancreatitis that has required hospitalisation.

Recently I have noticed the following symptoms which are causing concern about a possible type 3c diagnosis (he is at risk of this) and would appreciate any input or thoughts:

- weight loss, he has lost about a kilo since end of November
- bed wetting, he has wet the bed several times over the past few weeks which is very very unusual for him
- school told me they noticed this week he is drinking considerably more than usual and much more than his peers
- sweating at night
- he said he always feels hungry and thirsty

We went to the GP today who checked his urine and blood sugars which were both fine. Were next seeing his pancreas specialist Drs on 18th Jan.

Does this sound like diabetes? Is there anything I should be looking out for? Is an HBa1C the test I should be asking for?

TIA!!
 
The four main symptoms of diabetes are frequently peeing, thirst ,tiredness and weight loss

What was your sons BG when it was taken by the GP?
 
The four main symptoms of diabetes are frequently peeing, thirst ,tiredness and weight loss

What was your sons BG when it was taken by the GP?
It was 7 so normal.

He has had episodes of very low blood sugar during Hospitalisations as he is nil by mouth whilst his pancreas rests and if they dont keep up his IVs his blood sugar drops. But otherwise havent noticed any of the symptoms until recently.
 
It was 7 so normal.

He has had episodes of very low blood sugar during Hospitalisations as he is nil by mouth whilst his pancreas rests and if they dont keep up his IVs his blood sugar drops. But otherwise havent noticed any of the symptoms until recently.
I’ll tag some 3Cs
@Proud to be erratic @eggyg @soupdragon
 
We went to the GP today who checked his urine and blood sugars which were both fine. Were next seeing his pancreas specialist Drs on 18th Jan.

Sorry to hear about your little ones, and their health challenges :(

I’m not aware of many other members who have pancreatitis as children - most seem to have developed pancreatitis in later adulthood.

Are you in contact with the Pancreatic Society? I think @mikeyB is connected with a forum they have?

Hope you get some reassurance from their specialist at your appointment in the next few weeks.
 
Hello @Cbendji,

I am the wrong side of 70 and had a total pancreatectomy in Feb 2020 , immediately making me a Type 3c; so I don't think I can offer any wise words or suggestions to you. My circumstances were totally different.

But I understand that not all pancreatitis automatically leads to diabetes becoming a consequent diagnosis; if it does, then you are correct in deducing that diabetes would be Type 3c ( damage to the pancreas affecting insulin production). However it seems to me that despite your son seemingly having many of the common outward symptoms of diabetes, the crucial diagnosis factor is elevated blood glucose - which normally shows after a blood test for his HbA1c. If the pancreatitis has damaged his insulin production capability, then his body's ability to manage all glucose arriving in his blood is impaired and glucose can't get transferred out of his blood and into the body cells , muscles and organs. I cannot imagine that the Consultant Endocrinologist and Paediatrician are anything other than already fully alert to this scenario.

I wish you and your family all the very best of fortune at this horrible time.
 
Thank you all. Yes we are fully involved with the pancreatic community, in particular GUTS UK. Pancreatitis is extremely rare in children so its hard trying to find anyone in a similiar position!

Thank you for all your help
 
Thank you all. Yes we are fully involved with the pancreatic community, in particular GUTS UK. Pancreatitis is extremely rare in children so its hard trying to find anyone in a similiar position!

Thank you for all your help
Hello again @Cbendji,
Been thinking about you and your children, even though I can't particularly help.

Your thread title says "possibly Type 3c" and it occurred to me that you might get some small reassurance from knowing that these days the possibility of life without any pancreas is REAL. I am walking proof of this and there are others on this forum who have been without a Pancreas for much longer than my 35 months. Tagging @martindt1606, who I think had a total panc'y in 2010 and @Faith_exx who has only some 5% of her panc'y after surgery some 14 years ago, when approx age 6 (again hoping I've got that correct). There are others.

One common factor for the 3 of us was that initially we were each diagnosed on discharge from Hospital as Type 1. Clearly that was wrong, we hadn't suddenly developed the autoimmune condition that defines Type 1 diabetes. BUT we each are wholly insulin dependent, as if T1. We just have further things to manage like digestion (Creon and Opremazole for me), rather more "brittle" Diabetes (ie swings from high to low or vice versa can be fast and furious - none of the other pancreatic hormones to help). Generally as T3c we are members of a select club that most HCPs don't know about (and don't use their medically trained brains to think through the consequences of their stupid unilateral decisions) and needs us to stay alert most of the time a bit more than other T1s.

Apart from these little things (!) T3c with little or even no panc'y is manageable. I suspect that in practice the issues from pancreatitis are actually greater than the insulin dependence (as if T1), which technology can and does greatly help. As I understand it pancreatitis creates huge uncertainties, can be extremely painful with irregular flare-ups and is still an ailment whose cause is not well understood by the experts. In adults, never mind in children.

So at least take some comfort from knowing that T3c - should that possibility become reality - is manageable. Stay strong.
 
Hello again @Cbendji,
Been thinking about you and your children, even though I can't particularly help.

Your thread title says "possibly Type 3c" and it occurred to me that you might get some small reassurance from knowing that these days the possibility of life without any pancreas is REAL. I am walking proof of this and there are others on this forum who have been without a Pancreas for much longer than my 35 months. Tagging @martindt1606, who I think had a total panc'y in 2010 and @Faith_exx who has only some 5% of her panc'y after surgery some 14 years ago, when approx age 6 (again hoping I've got that correct). There are others.

One common factor for the 3 of us was that initially we were each diagnosed on discharge from Hospital as Type 1. Clearly that was wrong, we hadn't suddenly developed the autoimmune condition that defines Type 1 diabetes. BUT we each are wholly insulin dependent, as if T1. We just have further things to manage like digestion (Creon and Opremazole for me), rather more "brittle" Diabetes (ie swings from high to low or vice versa can be fast and furious - none of the other pancreatic hormones to help). Generally as T3c we are members of a select club that most HCPs don't know about (and don't use their medically trained brains to think through the consequences of their stupid unilateral decisions) and needs us to stay alert most of the time a bit more than other T1s.

Apart from these little things (!) T3c with little or even no panc'y is manageable. I suspect that in practice the issues from pancreatitis are actually greater than the insulin dependence (as if T1), which technology can and does greatly help. As I understand it pancreatitis creates huge uncertainties, can be extremely painful with irregular flare-ups and is still an ailment whose cause is not well understood by the experts. In adults, never mind in children.

So at least take some comfort from knowing that T3c - should that possibility become reality - is manageable. Stay strong.
Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate it!

I am aware of the TPIAT surgery but its not something they perform on kids over in the UK. Its more common in America. Its amazing really as the kids that have it dont end up as diabetic due to the islet cell transplant. Im going to be speaking to the specialist about it when we see them next in a couple of weeks. My worry is if his pancreas is already too damaged that they wouldnt be able to do the islet cell transplant.

Yes pancreatitis is extremely rare in children. My kids are the only ones in the UK with their specific genetic mutations. We live every day wondering if they might suddenly have an acute attack and the pain during these attacks are horrendous. It is the worst thing in the world to see your child in so much pain! My son takes Creon and also additional Vitamin K supplements as he’s low in that vitamin as its one of the fat soluble ones.

My sister spoke to a friend who’s diabetic and he said the technology nowdays is amazing so thats something somewhat reassuring. Im just worried that its another thing to cope with ontop of what we already deal with day-to-day with the pancreatitis.

One question is would the HBA1C blood test show up for 3c? Im just thinking if it causes you to fluctuate rapidly between high and low and the HBA1C is an average over the past few months, would the high and low swings cancel each other out??

Also would you recommend we get a blood sugar testing machine and test ourselves at home??
 
Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate it!
You are most welcome.
I am aware of the TPIAT surgery but its not something they perform on kids over in the UK. Its more common in America. Its amazing really as the kids that have it dont end up as diabetic due to the islet cell transplant. Im going to be speaking to the specialist about it when we see them next in a couple of weeks. My worry is if his pancreas is already too damaged that they wouldnt be able to do the islet cell transplant.
Because I had a full pancreatectomy and at a relatively advanced age, I've no detailed awareness of islet cell transplants. I happen to be under the Head of the Oxford Centre for Diabetes, Endocrinology and Metabolism (OCDEM) - who have been pioneering research into this; but I'm so grateful for the time that I get along with advice specifically for me, I try not to digress and take more than my share of this valuable time. Even though I'd like to know more!
Yes pancreatitis is extremely rare in children. My kids are the only ones in the UK with their specific genetic mutations. We live every day wondering if they might suddenly have an acute attack and the pain during these attacks are horrendous. It is the worst thing in the world to see your child in so much pain! My son takes Creon and also additional Vitamin K supplements as he’s low in that vitamin as its one of the fat soluble ones.

My sister spoke to a friend who’s diabetic and he said the technology nowdays is amazing so thats something somewhat reassuring. Im just worried that its another thing to cope with ontop of what we already deal with day-to-day with the pancreatitis.
The Diabetes is a bit demanding, but it does get easier from month to month. There is an excellent analogy with learning to drive: at first it's a bit frightening, confusing and yet awesome to do, with so many things to deal with. But pretty soon one gets into a car and drives off without even thinking about the mechanics of driving - just paying attention to the potential road hazards ahead and often just lip service to some of those!
One question is would the HBA1C blood test show up for 3c? Im just thinking if it causes you to fluctuate rapidly between high and low and the HBA1C is an average over the past few months, would the high and low swings cancel each other out??
Yes, the HbA1c outcome is the same for all of us - regardless of Type. Many non T3cs have considerable swings; its just that for me (if I don't keep on top of this) those swings can be very rapid. In some ways having no pancreas means I don't have any unforeseen releases of insulin, so I know what I have to manage - always. So far I can't get my HbA1c below 45, which would be viewed as pre-diabetic for non-Ds; but I have NO aspiration to achieve a lower figure.

However, I would like more tech to assist me with my daily management and perversely because I do manage well enough I'm currently ineligible for that extra tech from the NHS. A child would (rightly so) become eligible for extra tech support; but this introduces a question about their ability to manage all of that (or initially the parents' ability) and the psych impacts of this extra commitment.
Also would you recommend we get a blood sugar testing machine and test ourselves at home??
I am reluctant to say specifically yes or no - even for an adult, never mind a 5 Yr old. If your son's HbA1c is below 42, then I might think testing isn't needed. If above, then that's a discussion to have with your team.

But testing is intrusive: finger pricking involves washing the finger first, the pricking (which shouldn't be, but can be painful) and getting an actual reading (involves getting a test strip to engage with the blood drop, without spoiling and giving a rejected result!). All doable, but ....

One thought, if you bought a meter and test strips and tried it on yourself, 5+ times daily for a fortnight, you would get your own insight on what it all entails, (also what non D numbers can be) and whether you feel this might help your son - at this stage. The best quality finger pickers are inevitably more expensive, both for the device and the strips; yet if that is going to be for many years to come, the quality makes sense. The biggest cost lies with test strips, rather than the meter or finger pricking device; there are recommendations on this forum for best overall value FP testing - which I need to search for and find a link for you.

I was discharged from hospital with a cheap, nasty (vicious) finger pricking device and had more failed test strips than one's with usable results. Very disheartening at that time, as well as frightening and painful. Luckily, I had access to a close relative who's been T1 for over 40 years and while quizzing him about FP technique he mentioned the Accu-chek FastClix device, which has a wide range of depth settings and takes a canister of lancets. This is relative Rolls Royce machinery! I persuaded my DSN to help and got one direct from her secret store, subsequently with the associated meter (which has expensive test cartridges) and the lance device clips to the meter - providing an all-in-one package, with no immediate disposables of used lances or blooded strips. So great tech with convenience. I had a hassle with getting more cassettes prescribed by my GP, but that's another story.

Modern tech, based on Continuous Glucose Monitors (CGMs) is a great help but, at present, does NOT completely replace finger pricking. So knowing how to FP and being comfortable about doing that is essential. I believe one can still get a free trial of Libre 2, which allows 14 day's worth of flash CGM. This is an effective marketing ploy by Abbott for their Freestyle technology, draws one in; but I think this is premature. If your son is diabetic or pre-diabetic then a conversation with his Team is needed.

Apologies for long posting, do ask if you need further gaps filling - but I still suspect the pancreatitis is your main focus for now - which I know so little about. I can't truly imagine how my wife and I would have coped if we had been faced with your circumstances; no doubt we would have struggled through, or at least I hope we would, but ....
 
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