PM announces end of restrictions!

[Amity Island]

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Yes, very annoying.
But it's their own choice.
It would be a distraction (and probable vote winner) to move them all into Nightingale hospitals, and get the NHS backlog moving now.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

It would be a distraction (and probable vote winner) to move them all into Nightingale hospitals, and get the NHS backlog moving now.

The problem (as always) is staff. I can believe more space (allowing patients to be spread out more) would help even with similar numbers of staff, but using entirely separate hospitals seems like it would be costly. Might be that tents in hospital carparks will actually turn out to be practical?

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The problem (as always) is staff. I can believe more space (allowing patients to be spread out more) would help even with similar numbers of staff, but using entirely separate hospitals seems like it would be costly. Might be that tents in hospital carparks will actually turn out to be practical?

To be fair, I'm not overly fussed were they go.
If they believe in herd immunity, they had free will to choose the path that put them there, and they need to sort out their own consequences.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The p.m is not making a good case for mandating that NHS staff have 2 jabs before April 1st or be sacked, when it appears 90% in ICU are not boosted only double jabbed?

More than 80,000 unvaccinated NHS workers face the sack

According to new NHS guidance to employers, all frontline staff who have not received a vaccine will be called into formal meetings from February 4 and given a warning that they face dismissal.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Erm, that's 90% of patients.
They aren't going in to work there.
90% of beds blocked in ICU.
Not vaccinated at all runs at 8 times more than vaccinated entries into hospital.

“I’m sorry to say this but the overwhelming majority of people who are currently ending up in intensive care in our hospitals are people who are not boosted,” he said. “I’ve talked to doctors who say the numbers are running up to 90% of people in intensive care.”

He added: “If you’re not vaccinated, you’re eight times more likely to get into hospital altogether. So it’s a great thing to do. It’s very, very important. Get boosted for yourself, and enjoy new year sensibly and cautiously.”

 

[Bruce Stephens]

The p.m is not making a good case for mandating that NHS staff have 2 jabs before April 1st or be sacked, when it appears 90% in ICU are not boosted only double jabbed?

He's not (I think) claiming that 90% of patients in ICU are double jabbed. I presume when he's giving the 90% figure he's trying to encourage people to get a booster dose, not to defend the healthcare vaccination policy.

I forget the overall UK (or England) figures but I imagine this isn't miles off: 80.6% of patients admitted to ICU in north east London in December weren't fully vaccinated:

80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in December not fully vaccinated - NHS North East London

Between 1 December and 31 December 2021, 124 patients with Covid-19 were admitted to intensive care units (ICU) across north east London (NEL). Of these, 80.6% (100) were not fully vaccinated. [...]Read More... from 80% of patients admitted to Intensive Care Units in north east London in...

northeastlondonccg.nhs.uk

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Either way, I'd sack off the T-cells, and go for the triple vaccine option.

 

[AndBreathe]

Yes, very annoying.
But it's their own choice.
It would be a distraction (and probable vote winner) to move them all into Nightingale hospitals, and get the NHS backlog moving now.

Not necessarily.

Whilst everyone has been offered a vaccine, not everyone has been able to have it. Some will not be able to get to where the vaccines are being given, when they are being given. Some sessions seem to have been well kept secrets, and of course, there are those who will have been unwell.

Some of those people in ICU will have been becoming unwell with conditions meaning being vaccinated would be the leas of their worries.

To echo the wards of my Endo near the beginning of the pandemic, we really mustn't forget there are other things going on the world and people ailing for other reasons, or just needing complex, but routine care to them, care need their care.

I doubt we will ever know the real cost of this pandemic. The metric of those dying within 28 days of a positive test doesn't tell us that person died from covid. Thousands will die needlessly from cancer and other conditions either not diagnosed ot not treated during the pandemic.

 

[Northerner]

I doubt we will ever know the real cost of this pandemic. The metric of those dying within 28 days of a positive test doesn't tell us that person died from covid. Thousands will die needlessly from cancer and other conditions either not diagnosed ot not treated during the pandemic.

I suppose excess deaths might be a figure that could be used as a comparitor to other years.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Not necessarily.

Whilst everyone has been offered a vaccine, not everyone has been able to have it. Some will not be able to get to where the vaccines are being given, when they are being given. Some sessions seem to have been well kept secrets, and of course, there are those who will have been unwell.

Some of those people in ICU will have been becoming unwell with conditions meaning being vaccinated would be the leas of their worries.

To echo the wards of my Endo near the beginning of the pandemic, we really mustn't forget there are other things going on the world and people ailing for other reasons, or just needing complex, but routine care to them, care need their care.

I doubt we will ever know the real cost of this pandemic. The metric of those dying within 28 days of a positive test doesn't tell us that person died from covid. Thousands will die needlessly from cancer and other conditions either not diagnosed ot not treated during the pandemic.

Many patients aren't actually being seen to be diagnosed,
So, they aren't actually getting the chance to be triaged into ICU.
However, it also means the needless overload and attention given to those who make a decision to overload the NHS distracts from all parts of the NHS, and as your Endo says, they are still here, just unfortunately pushed back.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

I doubt we will ever know the real cost of this pandemic.

I'm sure we won't.

The metric of those dying within 28 days of a positive test doesn't tell us that person died from covid.

No, which is why it's just one metric. It's pretty easy to produce quickly, but misses deaths that take over 28 days and of course includes deaths where the infection isn't much of a factor. With high prevalence as we have now, it seems inevitable that many people who die will also (by chance) be infected.

There's also figures produced from looking on death certificates; in prior waves I think those matched up pretty well with the within 28 days figures but I imagine they'll be less closely matched now.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

All I want now is Boris to get rid of the day 2 lateral flow test on returning to the UK, now other countries are returning to accepting Covid passports.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Travellor to confirm:

90% of those patients in ICU are not boosted (infers they are double jabbed (thus you can't be "boosted" until after 2 previous jabs and can't be "boosted" unless having prior vaccination)). If the double jabbed are ending up in ICU at a rate of 90%, this doesn't make a case for mandating 2 dose vaccination for NHS staff.

If the "vaccine free" runs at 8 times that of the "vaccinated" in hospital, how does that tie in with the 90% vaccinated in ICU? wouldn't it be the other way around e.g 90% unvaccinated in ICU?

The hospital is full of unvaccinated people, some get better, the rest need ICU, so no.
Only the odd one or two vaccinated need hospital at all, let alone see the inside of ICU.
And the stats say 90% are unboosted, clearly a completely unvaccinated customer is unboosted as well.

As below.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

"The Intensive Care National Audit and Research Centre (ICNARC), which has been monitoring activity throughout the pandemic, provides information on admissions to intensive care.3 Its latest report, published on 31 December, showed that the proportion of patients admitted to critical care in December 2021 with confirmed covid-19 who were unvaccinated was 61%. This proportion had previously fallen from 75% in May 2021 to 47% in October 2021—consistent with the decreasing proportion of the general population who were unvaccinated—before rising again in December 2021.
The proportion of unvaccinated patients in intensive care varied by English region, with the highest rates recorded in London (66%), the south west, and the north west. Being unvaccinated was classed as a person having no record of receiving any vaccination or having had a first dose administered within 14 days of receiving a positive covid test, and only 1.9% of the “unvaccinated” group had received a first dose within that period.
The 61% figure is lower than the 80-90% reported at some hospitals. But the latest ICNARC data span only to 15 December, and the proportion of patients in intensive care who are unvaccinated may have increased as the omicron variant spread in December. Some hospitals will also have been more badly affected than others.

What about admissions outside intensive care?​

The UK Health Security Agency (UKHSA) has recently started to report hospital admissions—not just those to intensive care—alongside vaccination status. The latest figures show that in the week to 29 December 2021 a total of 815 people with confirmed omicron infection were admitted from an emergency department to hospitals in England. Of these, 74% had not had three doses of vaccine—including 25% (206) who were unvaccinated, 6% (49) who had received one dose, and 43% (352) who had received two doses. Twenty three percent (189) had received a booster dose, and the remainder were unknown or had had their first dose less than three weeks ago.4
Further analysis by the agency has concluded that unvaccinated adults are as much as eight times more likely to be admitted to hospital than those who have been vaccinated and that booster doses are 88% effective at preventing hospital admission.4
A separate report published by the UKHSA showed that, although unvaccinated individuals made up only a small proportion of the overall population, they accounted for 27% of those with a confirmed case of omicron admitted to hospital in England and for 39% in London.5
The Office for National Statistics’ latest report on deaths from covid-19 covering the period from January to October last year in England found that the age adjusted rate of death was 96% lower in people who had received a second dose of vaccine than in those who were unvaccinated.6"

Covid-19: Fact check—how many patients in hospital are unvaccinated?

Intensive care units in the UK are filling up with patients with covid-19 who have not been fully vaccinated, a number of media reports have claimed over the past week. It led to the prime minister, Boris Johnson, urging people to get vaccinated to reduce the pressure on hospitals. He said that...

www.bmj.com

 

[AndBreathe]

Many patients aren't actually being seen to be diagnosed,
So, they aren't actually getting the chance to be triaged into ICU.
However, it also means the needless overload and attention given to those who make a decision to overload the NHS distracts from all parts of the NHS, and as your Endo says, they are still here, just unfortunately pushed back.

If by ".... those who make it their decision to overload the NHS...." I hope you are not referring to those who have chosen not to accept the vaccine.

I doubt very much that anyone decides to get very sick and end up in dire straits, or worse. Yes, they have taken a gamble, and for some it will go very wrong, but there are also those who have taken the vaccine for whom it has all gone very wrong.

Personally, I chose to respect others in their decisions over the vaccine.

To be absolutely clear, before you brand me an anti-vaxxer, I have been vaxxed and boostered, and I accept the risk I took in doing that. Nobody knows how great an idea that will have been in ten years.

One thing I don't have an argument for, in those who choose to refuse is tha they can change their minds to be vaccinated at any time. Those of use who have taken it can't be unvaxxed it it turns out to be tricky down the line.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

If by ".... those who make it their decision to overload the NHS...." I hope you are not referring to those who have chosen not to accept the vaccine.

I doubt very much that anyone decides to get very sick and end up in dire straits, or worse. Yes, they have taken a gamble, and for some it will go very wrong, but there are also those who have taken the vaccine for whom it has all gone very wrong.

Personally, I chose to respect others in their decisions over the vaccine.

To be absolutely clear, before you brand me an anti-vaxxer, I have been vaxxed and boostered, and I accept the risk I took in doing that. Nobody knows how great an idea that will have been in ten years.

One thing I don't have an argument for, in those who choose to refuse is tha they can change their minds to be vaccinated at any time. Those of use who have taken it can't be unvaxxed it it turns out to be tricky down the line.

Oh dear, I'm afraid that is a vain hope there.
We all make choices we live with.
(And no, if you do refuse, it's very difficult if you finish your stint in ICU by transferring to the morgue)

Personally, I have a lot of vaccines swilling around inside me.
I would have no idea what would make anything tricky down the line personally.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

"...refuse" to live a law abiding life?...."

I believe many of us do support a justice system?
Or is anarchy a better option?

And if you prefer anarchy, and a complete lack of laws, would you trust a doctor you had robbed at gunpoint the day before, if they had no punishment no matter what they did to you?

Or maybe a "Purge" type system, where you can shoot fat smokers, just because?
Or they can shoot you, just because you don't smoke or are thin?

 

[AndBreathe]

Oh dear, I'm afraid that is a vain hope there.
We all make choices we live with.
(And no, if you do refuse, it's very difficult if you finish your stint in ICU by transferring to the morgue)

Personally, I have a lot of vaccines swilling around inside me.
I would have no idea what would make anything tricky down the line personally.

I too have lots of vaccines "swilling around inside me", but I am also acutely aware that two years ago at this time, I was in SE Asia, reading British news on t'internet, hearing of a virus that seemed to be causing a few problems. It didn't really even have a name, never mind a vaccine designed to protect against it.

A lot has happened in that two years - some at break-neck speed and some very slowly indeed.

I know a lot of time was saved in developing this vaccine, because all the usual rounds of begging bowls for funding simply just didn't happen. Money in obscene amounts was thrown at it, worldwide.

Various trials have taken place, but I still feel uncomfortable at the speed of approvals and roll outs to adults.

The first Covid 19 vaccine delivered, outside of a trial, was delivered in December 2020. To my mind that's 13 months. That's not very long, in my view to decide how safe it is over the longer term.

I made my decisions. I accept them and I live with them. I hope I won't regret it. I'm just so glad I am not a parent of a child deciding whether or not they have this vaccine. I'm not sure which side of the line I'd land on right now.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I too have lots of vaccines "swilling around inside me", but I am also acutely aware that two years ago at this time, I was in SE Asia, reading British news on t'internet, hearing of a virus that seemed to be causing a few problems. It didn't really even have a name, never mind a vaccine designed to protect against it.

A lot has happened in that two years - some at break-neck speed and some very slowly indeed.

I know a lot of time was saved in developing this vaccine, because all the usual rounds of begging bowls for funding simply just didn't happen. Money in obscene amounts was thrown at it, worldwide.

Various trials have taken place, but I still feel uncomfortable at the speed of approvals and roll outs to adults.

The first Covid 19 vaccine delivered, outside of a trial, was delivered in December 2020. To my mind that's 13 months. That's not very long, in my view to decide how safe it is over the longer term.

I made my decisions. I accept them and I live with them. I hope I won't regret it. I'm just so glad I am not a parent of a child deciding whether or not they have this vaccine. I'm not sure which side of the line I'd land on right now.

Many things change.
Progress isn't always bad.
Speed? Well, no one walks in front of cars with red flags anymore, the internet isn't on dial up, vaccines don't have to start in cowsheds.
Give it a few years, Covid vaccine development will look tediously slow.
(Like you I was away, Chinese news highlighted it first, unlike you, I decided it wasn't going to simply be a few problems. This one had the hallmarks of a lot more than that. Lets just say I could survive the Zombie Apocalypse 😉 )

 

[Deleted member 21371]

If non vaccinated people are already protected, let's move them out of ICU then.
They'll get better themselves.

Surely that's a simple solution, if they have superior defences, as your study shows?