Peak question

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jimmy2202

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
Why does getting injecting novarapid timing right to control peak when surely that bolus will kick in anyway?

I’ve been high for a couple weeks now, 10% in range highs everywhere. I’m injecting what I class as silly amounts for sod all carbs.

One way or the other for me it’s crazy
 
How stressful @Jimmy2202 ! First thing - have you changed your insulins just in case they’ve ‘gone off’ or become ineffective? I know you weren’t bolusing for some meals - are you bolusing for them all now?
 
It’s been very stressful. Last night I woke to highs of 22. I did a 3 unit correction and went back to sleep (albeit very scared to as I’ve never corrected more than 2 units)
It worked tho as woke to a comfortable 9 🙂

Yes its certainly crossed my mind my insulin’s have been faulty, so I have actually got 2 or 3 different ones knocking about and they all are doing the same.

It’s like all of a sudden my ratios have gone from 1:50 to 1:10

Mental. Todays a new day tho

I have upped my background back to 12 units from 8-10 to see if that helps
 
All you can do is slowly and cautiously increase your insulin if needed. So, for example, if you need to increase your mealtime ratios, then do it in tiny steps not one big jump. The fact your correction worked is great news. Perhaps you’re just experiencing a change in your insulin needs.

Remember to check for ketones when you’re high. It might be worth phoning your DSN too and getting some support with what’s happening. It can be scary when things go mad like this, but getting DSN input can really help, not just practically but emotionally.
 
I won’t lie, I haven’t checked for ketones since I was first diagnosed. As you may recall I have severe health anxiety and unfortunately it won’t allow me to do that in fear of having ketones. I need to remind myself the situation with ketones to be fair. I’ve kind of forgotten about them.
 
Why does getting injecting novarapid timing right to control peak when surely that bolus will kick in anyway?
Ideally one should try to smooth out spikes, to achieve a levellish BG, in range. Easy said, not so easy to do. But getting the pre-bolus timing right gets the insulin arriving into your blood as the carbs arrive, thus minimising spikes.

So, no prebolus does get insulin into your blood, but your digestion may well have done its thing, delivered the carbs and thus you spike. How long for pre-bolus is trial and error, in conjunction with experience. I find I need 30-45 minutes pre-bolus before breakfast, perhaps 20-30 mins before lunch and less than 20 mins before dinner.

You could be different, but it's all about your body's natural resistance to insulin and most people have a higher insulin resistance in the mornings, which for most people reduces as the day goes on.

The other seemingly confusing factor is that most people find their natural insulation resistance increases as their BG increases. I have worked out (trial and error) that if I'm above 8 (actual from finger prick) then my bolus takes longer to become effective. So by the time I'm ready to bolus for breakfast, I often have what is known as Foot on the Floor syndrome whereby my liver has dumped glucose into me because I'm awake and my BG has risen to above 8 from my first reading of c.6. So I need a correction adding to my bolus and often also need to wait longer than 45 mins. If I don't wait then my insulin starts to deal with the correction, but takes so long that it dissipates before it can deal with the food.

It's a bit of a nuisance but I'm retired and can afford to delay eating (no rush to get to work) and I use my Libre to guide me into when I can start eating. If I can't wait, eg have a fixed commitment after breakfast, I'll strengthen (increase) my correction and then eat when I need to, without waiting. This is more trial and error and I suggest you need to approach this cautiously to avoid sending yourself hypo.
I’ve been high for a couple weeks now, 10% in range highs everywhere. I’m injecting what I class as silly amounts for sod all carbs.
This sounds as though your basal insulin is insufficient and as a general principle one needs to get the basal about right first, then scrutinise the bolus ratios and bolus timings. Have you done any fasting checks on your basal. I am on Tresiba, which is a once daily very long-lasting basal whereas Levermir lasts under 24 hours and is often split am and pm, with changes to the actual basal dose to find the balance that works for you. I'm not best placed to advise on the finer points of Levermir.

If tou could provide a little more info about all of your dose sizes and typical "sod all" carbs per meal, hopefully we can advise a bit more specifically.
One way or the other for me it’s crazy
Yes, Diabetes can feel crazy. It's certainly complicated, confusing and contradictory (reference Gary Sheiner "Think Like a Pancreas"). Have you got this book? Do you get decent support from a hospital based Diabetes Specialist Nurse (DSN)?

I have only briefly read back into your history, but glean that you were diagnosed T1 c.June 2021, joined this forum Sep 21, had a Libre trial shortly after and been wrestling with your D ever since. It takes time, helps to have some background understanding about why so helping decide what to do, and patience for trial and error. It isn't easy, even without trying to earn a living, and you are in a very long marathon that is best managed slowly, steadily and (as much as possible) logically. Do keep asking questions, a little more info might assist; it's possibly somewhere in your earlier threads and posts, but too much to read to find it. Hope this helps.
 
I injected 2 units for breakfast this morning and waited 20 minutes… and I’m still going high now. I’ve never had to wait this long or inject for 2 slices of bread
 

Attachments

  • DC51C205-CD2F-4BD5-8DE0-9CF15AB7883C.png
    DC51C205-CD2F-4BD5-8DE0-9CF15AB7883C.png
    93.5 KB · Views: 9
I injected 2 units for breakfast this morning and waited 20 minutes… and I’m still going high now. I’ve never had to wait this long or inject for 2 slices of bread
Jimmy, seen this, just going out for flu jab. Will get back to you later today.
 
Hi again Jimmy,
So reading a little back into your recent posts I've gleaned: that your work is physical; that you frequently keep yourself in the teens to be safe; you can often take a meal without needing a bolus - you spike, but it drops reasonably quickly. I hope I've got that about right.

In your Sep 21 thread, "Bonjour", @everydayupsanddowns talked about the honeymoon period ending at some point and this might be a factor. Also, in the Sep22 thread "Week 2 no insulin" he talked about MODY; have you had an opportunity to follow that up through your Endo or DSN? He also talked about finding a different balance between basal and bolus; again have you made any changes since then?

I no longer have my screenshot from my early days after I got Libre, but they did look something like yours, but I was bouncing between hypos and hyper and I was (then) on fixed meal bolus doses, with minimal corrections for highs, yet eating lots. So my similarity was really only superficial; also I was walking a fair amount, but not physically active as you are probably.

I appreciate you want to stay safe in the teens, but wonder if you could ease that closer to 8 or 9, rather than teens? That should improve your natural insulin resistance and reduce one component in what is a confusion of factors that affect our BG. If you have your Libre low alarm set at the maximum of 5.6 this should give you enough response time to still be safe.

Also, could you adjust your eating patterns during a working day whereby you had several modest snacks of around 15 gms of carbs - but slower release such as a biscuit or 2, or a small bag of crisps, or even a Penguin choc bar or KitKat (but not hypo response carbs) and still don't bolus - then this might reduce the height of any one peak and help you to get a more even graph.

This is a process akin to "sugar surfing", where you are eating frequently and managing the potential BG rise by your activity, or sometimes with a very small amount of bolus insulin. If your body is still releasing some insulin, ie you are still in the honeymoon period, then this might be a more natural way of mirroring what your pancreas and liver would normally do when metabolising your food, if not diabetic. Worth a try?
I injected 2 units for breakfast this morning and waited 20 minutes… and I’m still going high now. I’ve never had to wait this long or inject for 2 slices of bread
Coming back to your original question: your graph shows some recovery starting from that spike. Did this continue?

Injecting for 2 slices of bread, say 35 gms of carbs, would be normal for many of us and perhaps this is showing that longer term change is going on with your natural insulin production. Since my diabetes came about from major surgery and I have no pancreas (so no honeymoon distractions) I'm not well placed to offer solid advice, just my thoughts on what I see and what you've said.
 
Jimmy, many of us need to give our breakfast insulin longer to get going than 20 mins. Your spike after breakfast suggests you also need to give it a bit longer. The thing to do would be to inject 25 mins before breakfast tomorrow and if you still spike, give it 30 mins the next day and so on. I regularly have to inject 45mins before breakfast to prevent my levels spiking and I use Fiasp. When I used Novo(not so)Rapid it took about 75 mins each morning between injecting and eating breakfast to prevent my levels spiking.....This is extreme and one of the main reasons I changed to Fiasp as I kept trying to fit stuff into that time and ended up getting distracted, but 20 mins is usually not long enough for most people at breakfast time. You need to carefully experiment to find the right timing for your body and 20 mins for 2 slices of toast doesn't look to be long enough from that graph.
You will also be in the honeymoon period so your own insulin production will be chipping in but this will not continue the same and sooner or later you may need more insulin. This too is normal and not something to be anxious about, it is just a part of the diabetes. It does eventually settle down to a more regular dose but recognizing when you need to increase your basal insulin and indeed decrease it, is part of the ebb and flow of diabetes. I now know that when I get frustrated with my diabetes because it isn't making sense, it is usually because my basal dose isn't right. Especially if I am having to do lots of corrections or levels are persistently high. At this stage you probably need to talk to your nurse about basal dose changes but once you have had an intensive education course like DAFNE, you should be more confident about identifying when your basal insulin needs adjusting and by how much.

You are on a very steep learning curve and it is great that you are coming to the forum for help and support and to learn more, which is how myself and others here learned how to deal with these turbulent patches with our BG levels. You will too. You are doing really well, especially with your very active job, but you will gradually get better at it and more importantly, more confident, as you learn more. It was the same for all of us.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top