Ministers accused of causing confusion over face masks in England

[Northerner]

Ministers have been accused of giving mixed messages about where people should continue to wear masks, as the government prepares to end their compulsory use in most places across England.

Boris Johnson is expected to announce in a Downing Street press conference at 5pm that from 19 July face coverings will no longer be legally mandated but optional instead, as part of a wider pivot towards dropping legal restrictions and telling people to learn to live with Covid.

Masks are currently required to be worn in shops, places of worship, on public transport and when moving around enclosed indoor spaces such as hospitality venues. But as part of Johnson’s attempt to return life as close to normal as possible, they are expected to be required only in health and care settings.

Guidance will also be issued about when people might choose to wear a mask.

Ministers accused of causing confusion over face masks in England

Compulsory mask-wearing due to end on 19 July but people may still be advised to wear them in some settings

www.theguardian.com

As usual, mixed messaging from Johnson et al. Mandating masks in some settings, such as public transport and shops would have zero impact on the reopening of the economy, yet it would help to reduce transmission. What the government ministers advocating 'personal choice' completely overlook is that masks are primarily to protect others, not yourself But that's par for the course for this self-serving 'elite'

 

[Bruce Stephens]

What the government ministers advocating 'personal choice' completely overlook is that masks are primarily to protect others, not yourself

They (politicians, government scientists) have been a bit sloppy throughout about who the masks are to protect and journalists have largely let them get away with it. Possibly the confusion wasn't deliberate before (it seems entirely possible that many politicians weren't aware of it), now that it very much is I feel sure they won't have much difficulty getting away with it.

 

[pm133]

We're getting mixed message in Scotland too.
Apparently they will be "required in some settings".
Funny word that. "Required".
Suggests certainty but is actually beautifully vague.

For example, you could allow businesses to refuse permission for those not wearing them to enter their premises whilst removing the current legal requirement to wear them in public places punishable by law. In effect, passing the buck of enforcement onto everyone else whilst being able to say that you've removed a restriction.

A pseudo-law in effect which would guarantee that we can never ditch our masks. They become a permanent feature of life by the backdoor. It's a face-saving way out for politicians who have become trapped by their own rhetoric about how well these things actually work in reality (Near 100% compliance with mask wearing for a year and yet here we are on our 3rd massive wave of cases - you wonder what it will take to convince people these things don't work).

You cannot trust any politicians.

 

[pm133]

And with that brief statement from Boris, it looks like it's all over for restictions in England.
No doubt Scotland and Wales will be forced to follow suit because you cannot have restrictions when your neighbour has removed them without shutting you borders to them and that won't be happening any time soon.

It's over unless we see deaths start to rise in winter to a point where the NHS can't cope.

Finally feel I can breathe again from a year of suffocating caution and fear-mongering.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

And with that brief statement from Boris, it looks like it's all over for restictions in England.

Still some questions about public transport. (Some airline companies have already said they'll require face masks.)

I doubt face masks will go in healthcare settings (GP waiting rooms and similar). But who knows?

If they think there's a market for it I could imagine some supermarkets having an hour a day when everyone's required to wear a face mask.

 

[pm133]

Still some questions about public transport. (Some airline companies have already said they'll require face masks.)

I doubt face masks will go in healthcare settings (GP waiting rooms and similar). But who knows?

If they think there's a market for it I could imagine some supermarkets having an hour a day when everyone's required to wear a face mask.

I think he's been pretty clear unless I have missed something.
The legal requirement to wear masks will end and be replaced by advice.

Which airlines are saying they will be keeping them?

I'm not sure whether they or the NHS will have the legal right to enforce any of that once legislation is removed. Would they?

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Which airlines are saying they will be keeping them?

I'm not sure whether they or the NHS will have the legal right to enforce any of that once legislation is removed. Would they?

Ryanair was mentioned. I think companies have quite a lot of power in setting rules like this if they choose to. (I think the same's true of some other transport authorities. I think the alcohol ban on London public transport is a local thing, not backed by national legislation, though I may be mistaken about that.)

See Coronavirus: When can we stop wearing face masks or coverings?

(I'm less sure about the NHS or GP surgeries (or other things like supermarkets). But hospitality venues of various kinds can refuse entry if they don't like what you're wearing, so I'm not sure why they'd not be allowed to require a face mask if they felt it would be worthwhile.)

 

[pm133]

Ryanair was mentioned. I think companies have quite a lot of power in setting rules like this if they choose to. (I think the same's true of some other transport authorities. I think the alcohol ban on London public transport is a local thing, not backed by national legislation, though I may be mistaken about that.)

See Coronavirus: When can we stop wearing face masks or coverings?

(I'm less sure about the NHS or GP surgeries (or other things like supermarkets). But hospitality venues of various kinds can refuse entry if they don't like what you're wearing, so I'm not sure why they'd not be allowed to require a face mask if they felt it would be worthwhile.)

Leaving the legal stuff aside, I think the thing which will drive companies decisions will be what their customers want. You'd think that restaurants, nightclubs and pubs will unanimously ditch any requirements for masks because they'd go out of business otherwise.

Like you, I'm not sure about drinking on London public transport but there's clearly a difference between drunk people on trains and people not wearing masks so I can't see them forcing that on people.

Interestingly my GP surgery doesn't enforce mask wearing and neither does our nearest major hospital (neither of my daughters were masks and have visited both several times) so I'm assuming they won't try and enforce anything after the law is removed.

It's been said before, after a year of scaring and panicking the living daylights out of everyone, it's going to take many years for some people to return to anything like a normal life. For some, that will never happen. The fear mongering should have stopped last May after the first wave and absolutely should not have continued once the vaccine roll-out started. Someone really ought to be answerable for that.

 

[pm133]

Ryanair was mentioned.

I had a look and found a couple of newspapers talking about them keeping mandatory masks in place after 19th July but the article contains quotes which doesn't say that at all. They are saying they are keeping them in place right now and will review it.
Given that Boris has only just announced it and any change will require board approval that seems perfectly normal.
Newspapers eh? Can't trust them either.

Incidentally, the Rail Delivery Group are saying they will drop the mandatory requirement on mandatory masking for trains after the law ends in 2 weeks but will support passengers who do want to conitnue wearing them (whatever that means). I think that's probably the direction we are heading in.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

but will support passengers who do want to conitnue wearing them (whatever that means)

Which is, if you read it literally, stupid. Nobody actually wants to wear a mask (and nobody's going to care if you do want to wear one). Rather some people (some of the time) want to be in environments where everyone else is wearing a mask.

Maybe they're imagining masked carriages or something. (As we have allegedly quiet carriages now.)

 

[pm133]

Which is, if you read it literally, stupid. Nobody actually wants to wear a mask (and nobody's going to care if you do want to wear one). Rather some people (some of the time) want to be in environments where everyone else is wearing a mask.

Maybe they're imagining masked carriages or something. (As we have allegedly quiet carriages now.)

Who knows. The problem with masked carriages is that unmasked people won't tolerate being crammed into the other carriages if there are spare seats in the masked carriage so I can't imagine that's what they have in mind.

Reading Twitter tonight, it's full of people literally in tears with panic and fear over this. Countless posts from people saying they want to continue to wear one. I think people not only do want to continue wearing masks but intend to do so permanently. Once scared people get over covid, they'll move onto the flu and then it'll be something else. Fear is a weird, irrational thing.

You are right in saying that they also want everyone else to wear one too and the argument isn't necessarily that they insist masks work. They just want others to make them "feel safe". In fact that argument has been made by Labour's Manchester mayor Andy Burnham and many other prominent people. "We need to think of people who are scared. We should continue to wear masks to help them feel more secure". What do you even say to that? That's a man many people think could run the country one day.

It really is going to take some people years to get over this, if they ever do.

 

[Bruce Stephens]

Fear is a weird, irrational thing.

Some people don't like getting sick. Weird, I know...

Things could have worked out quite differently. If we had just the alpha variant (or similar variants) then with our current vaccination levels cases would surely have been crushed (without worrying about vaccinating teenagers).

Or if the Ox/AZ vaccine hadn't had the issues with younger people we could presumably have completed vaccinating all adults (and some teenagers, maybe) faster. Instead we're stuck with vaccinating adults and letting children and younger adults (those we can't vaccinate in time) get infected.

(I note that Israel is considering reimposing restrictions because of the delta variant.)

 

[pm133]

Some people don't like getting sick. Weird, I know...

Things could have worked out quite differently. If we had just the alpha variant (or similar variants) then with our current vaccination levels cases would surely have been crushed (without worrying about vaccinating teenagers).

Or if the Ox/AZ vaccine hadn't had the issues with younger people we could presumably have completed vaccinating all adults (and some teenagers, maybe) faster. Instead we're stuck with vaccinating adults and letting children and younger adults (those we can't vaccinate in time) get infected.

(I note that Israel is considering reimposing restrictions because of the delta variant.)

"Not like" is a very different place from "eye bulgingly panic stricken". 🙂

Not sure what's going on in Israel.
A quick look shows they are worrying over 300 cases per day.
They re-introduced indoor mask wearing but that will make no difference whatsoever.
No idea whether they are seeing increased hospitalisations/deaths and if so who is it affecting - old people, singly vacced, doubly vacced, unvacced?

I suspect they're going to have to speed up doubly vaccinating everyone (perhaps with boosters as well) and then learn to live with whatever happens after that.

Wouldn't surprise me if everyone ended up going through exactly what we're going through because we're the only country in the world with so many cases and such high vaccination numbers. In essence we're guinea pigs for the delta variant.

 

[mikeyB]

Ah, yes. The delta variant. That’s the one that spreads faster. It spreads faster because it doesn’t make people ill enough not to spread it, which is the ideal situation for a virus.

The fact that our hospitals are not being swamped currently with this variant, nor are deaths increasing because most of the folk who would die with this infection already have done, means the panic should be over.

We have vaccines, there is now an effective protocol of treatment for those with a bad Covid infection, so, what is the big fear? It’s about time we stopped being oppressed by this stupid government.