Mastering Diabetes vs Keto vs Carnivore

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Admiral Benbow

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At risk of diabetes
Ok everyone, just wondering on what your thoughts are on the differing trains of thought for eating between folks that advocate high carb plant based eating, and those that advocate low carb high fat.

It seems one crowd says eat all the fruits and veggies you like, including bananas and pineapples, so long as they are whole foods, but avoid eggs, and another crowd that says keep all carbs as low as possible, some taking it to the end of eating only meats.

I get that eating only meats would keep blood sugars low, but it seems all of these ways of eating are not really sustainable long term, even with normal range blood sugars.
 
Oxford's Dr Nicola Guess recently on "Best Diets for T2D":

Interviewed by researcher & communicator Gil Cavalhao who I think does a nice job with his YouTube channel, not trying to sell you anything. Here he talks about how to deal with conflicting messages re diet etc:
 
I'm t1 but found low carb, over a year, led to increased insulin resistance
 
I am Type 1 and have been low carb for 4 years and find it is perfectly sustainable. For me there have been significant other health benefits as well as giving me much better control over my disordered eating and sugar addiction and my diabetes. I am not sure I totally buy into the increased insulin resistance. To me it is more that the body gets more efficient at breaking down protein and fats and therefore you need more insulin to deal with that so you need to inject between meals to manage it. The benefits for me are that the release of glucose from protein and fat is much slower and this provides a more slow rise and fall to my levels which as a Type 1 using insulin I can manage better, but as a Type 2 the body should manage better because the timing is less important. The health benefits for me have been no debilitating migraines which had been a problem for 20+years.... literally stopped overnight when I changed my diet. Much less joint pain and whilst I can't quantify it, my teeth and bones feel stronger and my gum health is significantly improved. I sleep much better. I feel fitter and healthier than I have done for many years.
What I really like about it is that I don't get hungry because the fat keeps me feeling full, so I am not looking for what I can eat next like I was before I changed my diet. Always snacks and wanting more. Now I feel more sated and if I don't get time for lunch I still have plenty of energy to keep me going till my evening meal, even if that is quite late. I enjoy what I eat and it has been quite interesting trying new foods and finding interesting ways to combine veggies into different meals.... like having a large salad and cheese coleslaw with an omelette at breakfast or cabbage with my bacon, black pudding, eggs and mushrooms. I love veggie curries now and I am getting better at cooking them and experimenting with different ingredients. Yes, sometimes I can't be bothered to cook and that is when it is more difficult, especially when I come in late and tired and my partner is eating a ready meal and I think how nice it would be to just ping something for 2 mins in the microwave and then eat. Of course if I was more organized I would have home cooked ready meals that I could do that, so I only have myself to blame, but I often just break open a pot of olives and feta and that will suffice. Having low carb treats readily available helps to make it sustainable for me.
 
I still do keto snacks, but am finding i can manage my bs just as well, now, on normal carb.

Plus, well, bread. Not pretend, slightly slimey bread. Not bread that costs £££ to make and you can't make a sarny fro . Proper, lovely bread (albeit wholemeal with seeds). Sandwiches.
Also, potatoes. Chips. Chip butties! Not pretendy chips made out of squash (which are...ok). Chips. Oh, and crisps....
 
Tdm said:
I still do keto snacks, but am finding i can manage my bs just as well, now, on normal carb.

Plus, well, bread. Not pretend, slightly slimey bread. Not bread that costs £££ to make and you can't make a sarny fro . Proper, lovely bread (albeit wholemeal with seeds). Sandwiches.
Also, potatoes. Chips. Chip butties! Not pretendy chips made out of squash (which are...ok). Chips. Oh, and crisps....
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I just don't miss those things anymore. Yes, I used to love a chip butty with tomato sauce, but if I have the choice of a lovely bowl of cauliflower, halloumi and chick pea curry or a chip butty, I will take the former every time as it is really tasty rather than bland carbs with carbs.
I have half a portion of fish and chips with my partner about once a month and whilst I love the crispiness of the batter and the flavour of the fish, I find the chips quite boring now, even from a really good chippy. I accept that it took me longest to overcome the need for bread, as much as anything from the practical aspect as it is a carrier for so many foods, but I did also love a good bread with butter and would be quite happy with a plate of just that pre-diagnosis. I do wonder if part of it is just custom though rather than it actually tasting heavenly and now that I don't eat it anymore, I really don't crave it, but the convenience aspect of a sandwich still makes things challenging sometimes and I will very occasionally go to the village shop and buy a sandwich. It might happen 3 times a year and whilst I appreciate the convenience, I don't feel that I really enjoy it that much and usually feel a bit disappointed.
Mostly though I love the control that it gives me over my cravings and I have struggling with those most of my adult life, so it is incredibly liberating to feel that I am no longer at their whim.... at least most of the time. I still have the odd wobble when I am stressed, like yesterday and when that happens my diabetes management becomes dangerous, so I can't afford to slide too far down that slope.
 
At the end of the year, I will have been living a low carb lifestyle for a decade. My numbers reflecting that are in my signature.

I am also gluten-free, which is nothing to do with my diabetes, but something else. I haven’t had bread for almost 10 years. It was never a thing for me, although I did try the Lidl protein rolls everyone craved about in the day, but left those alone too short order.

This way of eating means I have all the flavourful stuff, and leave the carriers (rice, pasta, bread) for others.

The diet that is best is the one we can stick with, and on which our blood sugar numbers do well.

Edited to correct opening sentence.
 
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My thoughts are that we’re all individuals and what suits one person might not suit another (for a number of reasons, including other health problems, budget, lifestyle, family, etc etc). And, how are we measuring ‘success’? Weight loss? A remission of Type 2? Improvement in overall health stats?

Both very low fat plant-based eating and keto work for weight loss, which, in itself, can help Type 2, but very low fat plant-based eating increases insulin sensitivity, whereas keto does the opposite usually due to physiological insulin resistance (that’s why people eating a keto diet have to ‘carb up’ a bit prior to a glucose tolerance test).

And it’s not just diabetes, of course. It’s no good eating the perfect diet for blood sugar if it messes up your kidneys/heart/liver/pancreas/whatever, so the best diet must be one that helps insulin resistance and improves general health. I tend to trust the advice: “Eat moderately, mainly plants”

The carnivore diet, IMO, is just an American fad import. Removing all plant foods including vegetables can’t be healthy longterm. In addition, red meat intake has been linked to certain cancers. I always think of the carnivore diet as a more extreme version of the paleo diet, but, contrary to popular belief, cavepeople didn’t eat mainly meat, they ate mainly plants. Some studies have suggested they ate as little as 3% animal foodstuffs. Again, looking at modern hunter-gatherer tribes, they eat a lot of plants.

So, I think the Mediterranean Diet or some bastardised version of the WFPB diet is best: lots of low carb plants, some carby plants, and small amounts of protein, with healthy fats.
 
rebrascora said:
I just don't miss those things anymore. Yes, I used to love a chip butty with tomato sauce, but if I have the choice of a lovely bowl of cauliflower, halloumi and chick pea curry or a chip butty, I will take the former every time as it is really tasty rather than bland carbs with carbs.
I have half a portion of fish and chips with my partner about once a month and whilst I love the crispiness of the batter and the flavour of the fish, I find the chips quite boring now, even from a really good chippy. I accept that it took me longest to overcome the need for bread, as much as anything from the practical aspect as it is a carrier for so many foods, but I did also love a good bread with butter and would be quite happy with a plate of just that pre-diagnosis. I do wonder if part of it is just custom though rather than it actually tasting heavenly and now that I don't eat it anymore, I really don't crave it, but the convenience aspect of a sandwich still makes things challenging sometimes and I will very occasionally go to the village shop and buy a sandwich. It might happen 3 times a year and whilst I appreciate the convenience, I don't feel that I really enjoy it that much and usually feel a bit disappointed.
Mostly though I love the control that it gives me over my cravings and I have struggling with those most of my adult life, so it is incredibly liberating to feel that I am no longer at their whim.... at least most of the time. I still have the odd wobble when I am stressed, like yesterday and when that happens my diabetes management becomes dangerous, so I can't afford to slide too far down that slope.
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Different thing work for different people. I found low carb very useful, and still do some low carb when i want to take a low dose of bolus insulin. Its good for getting your fibre up as you tend to substitute veg for carby stuff eg cauliflower rice. Definitley gave my bowels enough to work on!
 
Tdm said:
Different thing work for different people. I found low carb very useful, and still do some low carb when i want to take a low dose of bolus insulin. Its good for getting your fibre up as you tend to substitute veg for carby stuff eg cauliflower rice. Definitley gave my bowels enough to work on!
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Mind you, i am type 1. I think low carb is a different kettle of fish in type 2
 
Admiral Benbow said:
Ok everyone, just wondering on what your thoughts are on the differing trains of thought for eating between folks that advocate high carb plant based eating, and those that advocate low carb high fat.
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To be honest not interested in their train of thoughts, own view is if diet includes nutrition delicious fruit & veg then it get a thumps up.

Some claims & counterclaim on diets are just so riddiculous so just do me own thing, enjoy food so don't exclude much at all, it's one of life's great pleasures.
 
With you there @nonethewiser. Just because extremes suit the social media algorithms does not mean you have to think in extremes.

In answer to the question posed in the opening post, let the two "crowds", in effect a few people who want to sell a book or maybe just want to shout at each other, get on with their thing is what I say. Take what you need from each point of view, adjust to suit you and move on.

Above all don't join in with the argument, it just encourages them!
 
Admiral Benbow said:
Ok everyone, just wondering on what your thoughts are on the differing trains of thought for eating between folks that advocate high carb plant based eating, and those that advocate low carb high fat.

It seems one crowd says eat all the fruits and veggies you like, including bananas and pineapples, so long as they are whole foods, but avoid eggs, and another crowd that says keep all carbs as low as possible, some taking it to the end of eating only meats.

I get that eating only meats would keep blood sugars low, but it seems all of these ways of eating are not really sustainable long term, even with normal range blood sugars.
Click to expand...
Over generalization and too much simplification are not going to be much help.
I can't advise a plant based diet if you want an easy road to reversing the classic type 2 - seeing BG levels dropping down to normal is almost diagnostic for it.
Eggs are one of the staples of my diet some weeks and I have none at other times. I tend to follow my impulses when it comes to selecting foods when there are no shortages or restrictions, and make do when there are empty shelves.
Low carb is a long way from eating only meat - though that would work and does work for those who chose it, but I find that having some low carb foods helps to make things more interesting.
Even before diagnosis I was happiest eating no more than 50 gm of carbs a day, but that is enough to have salad, or stir fry or a casserole/stew twice a day, which is all I need these days. I eat at 12 hour intervals, approximately, but it is no hardship to go 24 hours without eating. It seems perfectly sustainable.
The only problem, if it actually should be considered as such, is to replace or remake clothes as I reduce in size year on year.
 
Hi. In general the low-carb approach works the best as carbs are converted to glucose in the body and these get stored as fat if not used. This applies to both T1 & T2 as the digestion is similar but everyone has a different tolerance to carbs so you would need to see what works for you. Again in general fats & proteins are OK
 
I can't advise a plant based diet if you want an easy road to reversing the classic type 2

Why not? A recent study in Slovakia showed a success rate of 84% in reversing Type 2 diabetes using a whole food plant-based diet. There are loads of examples of Type 2s reversing/improving their diabetes with a WFPB diet.

People eating a plant-based diet have a greatly reduced risk of getting Type 2 too.
 
AndBreathe said:
At the end of the year, I will have been living a low carb lifestyle for a year. My numbers reflecting that are in my signature.
Click to expand...

Decade?
 
Admiral Benbow said:
but it seems all of these ways of eating are not really sustainable long term, even with normal range blood sugars.
Click to expand...

I think you've identified something significant for you @Admiral Benbow 🙂

As an observation, having read accounts from many forum members over the years, with many different approaches and ways of eating, my feeling is that many of the forum members whose dietary approaches tend towards the edges when aiming for blood glucose management (very low carb, keto, carnivore, Newcastle/12-week 800cal shake etc etc) seem to have ended up at that option having tried a variety of 'everything in moderation' approaches, and/or 'standard mainstream advice' before and found them either simply ineffective, or genuinely problematic.

I think this is why their experiences and accounts tend to be quite compelling and passionately held.

But I also think they represent a minority of members of our community. And I think more people opt for one of a number of a more moderate approaches revolving around a reduced intake of calories and/or carbohydrates.

And in particular members who are at risk of diabetes seem to only need relatively modest adjustments to their menu to see some significant improvements.

Good luck finding an approach that works for you 🙂
 
Inka said:
There are loads of examples of Type 2s reversing/improving their diabetes with a WFPB diet.
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I'm a "mainly plants, not too much" type, and I zapped my T2D simply by losing weight, increasing carbs along the way.

There's absolutely no reason why a real WFPB'er (not me: not giving up avocado, nuts, seeds) couldn't do this too, and many do, as you say.
 
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