Keelboat Sailing and Health?

[IrvineHimself]

For a number of months I have been considering taking up keel boat sailing at Port Edgar. I think I can afford the starter and RYA level 1 courses in September/November. Thus, if I save up my pennies over the winter, I will be in a position to spend next summer sailing the Firth of Forth 😎

As I have previously pointed out, my health is not that great. On the other hand, the sails on a keel boat are small, lightweight affairs and should be fairly easy to handle? I will, of course, email Port Edgar Water Sports and inform them of my health status before making any bookings, but I was wondering if anybody on the forum has experience of keel boating and knowledge of exactly how physically demanding it really is?

Irvine

 

[AndBreathe]

For a number of months I have been considering taking up keel boat sailing at Port Edgar. I think I can afford the starter and RYA level 1 courses in September/November. Thus, if I save up my pennies over the winter, I will be in a position to spend next summer sailing the Firth of Forth 😎

As I have previously pointed out, my health is not that great. On the other hand, the sails on a keel boat are small, lightweight affairs and should be fairly easy to handle? I will, of course, email Port Edgar Water Sports and inform them of my health status before making any bookings, but I was wondering if anybody on the forum has experience of keel boating and knowledge of exactly how physically demanding it really is?

Irvine

When you call Port Edgar, it could be useful to ask if they do any form of taster experiences.
As a sailor, who has sailed large and small I would comment that keelboat/dinghy sailing is fantastic fun, but it can all go very wrong, very quickly. They are so light and often frisky.

The Firth of Forth is very cold, and having done most of my major sailing in tropical waters, I found sailing in a wet suit, in summer - even on an inland lake to be bitterly cold sometimes. Personally, I wouldn't fancy trying to right a boat, after capsize (part of basic dinghy sailing training) in the Firth of Forth!

Have yo considered crewing for others? The RYA do a Competent Crew course which is designed as a starter to get folks sailing, with others. It is usually trained in the sort of boats you are looking at (including man overboard and capsize drills).

Crewing on bigger boats is social, and allows lots of observed learning, with getting some nautical miles under the belt and prepares for skill-building.

Whatever you do - enjoy! Sailing is a great way to spend time,

I w

 

[Deleted member 21371]

It's worth checking what the centre runs.
It could be an inland pool.

The sea temperature will be around 14/15 at that time of the year.
I've been in in trunks, a wet suit, a dry suit, and a survival suit, it's livable with.
Although a 4 or 5mm wet suit would be preferable.

Then again, the last thing I was in had twin MerCruisers, and bow and stern thrusters, so I know nothing about sailing!
I'm far more into button pushing.

 

[Drummer]

If it has a keel then it will be difficult to capsize it - in my experience, but that was a Westerly Tiger.
Dinghies go over fairly easily and then need to have some effort put in to get them upright and baled out. I don't see the attraction myself.

 

[IrvineHimself]

The sea temperature will be around 14/15 at that time of the year.
I've been in in trunks, a wet suit, a dry suit, and a survival suit, it's livable with.
Although a 4 or 5mm wet suit would be preferable.

During the summer, if there is no wind, the surface temperature of the med can get into the tropical twenties, while, at the same time/place, at as little as 1 metre below the surface, it will be a chilly 16 or 15 degrees or less, (it's average temperature is 12 c)

Given even a moderate breeze, the surface water mixes with this colder water, creating closely spaced layers with widely different temperatures. (As a result, because of the difference in salinity, over the top 10 or 20 metres there can be very noticeable changes in buoyancy.) So, in the med, for general mucking about purposes, a 2mm shorty wetsuit is quite adequate, for spear-fishing and exploration dives, I preferred a nice thick 7mm one-piece both summer and winter. (In the tropics, with water temperatures in the very high twenties, I would settle for a T-shirt to keep the sun off my back.)

I haven't used it for about 5 years, but my current wet-suit is a 5mm two piece. Its okay for a day out snorkelling at St Abbs, but over in the north west coast of Scotland, with only a 5mm neoprene suit, you will see the first signs of hypothermia after about twenty minutes.

As a sailor, who has sailed large and small I would comment that keelboat/dinghy sailing is fantastic fun, but it can all go very wrong, very quickly. They are so light and often frisky.

Oh I know

It was only an introduction with friends, but I have very fond memories of a riotous week dingy sailing up around Embrum in the high Alps. As I recall, the beach catamaran was particularly 'frisky'.

Have yo considered crewing for others? The RYA do a Competent Crew course which is designed as a starter to get folks sailing, with others. It is usually trained in the sort of boats you are looking at (including man overboard and capsize drills).

Yes I have, many times. A few years ago I calculated that a budget circumnavigation would cost around £70,000 to £80,000:

• RYA Yacht master: £10,000 £12,000
• Living expenses for two years: £15,000 to £20,000
• Thirty five year old Rustler, (the link is illustrative.) needing a bit of a TLC: £45,000
• Maintenance and insurance: £5,000

So, obviously, crewing on someone else's yacht could reduce the expense considerably. At the time, if my finances had allowed it, I would have worked towards RYA Coastal Skipper. Today however, if the winches were un-powered, I am not sure I would be able to raise the main sail on a cruising yacht.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

During the summer, if there is no wind, the surface temperature of the med can get into the tropical twenties, while, at the same time/place, at as little as 1 metre below the surface, it will be a chilly 16 or 15 degrees or less, (it's average temperature is 12 c)

Given even a moderate breeze, the surface water mixes with this colder water, creating closely spaced layers with widely different temperatures. (As a result, because of the difference in salinity, over the top 10 or 20 metres there can be very noticeable changes in buoyancy.) So, in the med, for general mucking about purposes, a 2mm shorty wetsuit is quite adequate, for spear-fishing and exploration dives, I preferred a nice thick 7mm one-piece both summer and winter. (In the tropics, with water temperatures in the very high twenties, I would settle for a T-shirt to keep the sun off my back.)

I haven't used it for about 5 years, but my current wet-suit is a 5mm two piece. Its okay for a day out snorkelling at St Abbs, but over in the north west coast of Scotland, with only a 5mm neoprene suit, you will see the first signs of hypothermia after about twenty minutes.



Oh I know

It was only an introduction with friends, but I have very fond memories of a riotous week dingy sailing up around Embrum in the high Alps. As I recall, the beach catamaran was particularly 'frisky'.



Yes I have, many times. A few years ago I calculated that a budget circumnavigation would cost around £70,000 to £80,000:

• RYA Yacht master: £10,000 £12,000
• Living expenses for two years: £15,000 to £20,000
• Thirty five year old Rustler, (the link is illustrative.) needing a bit of a TLC: £45,000
• Maintenance and insurance: £5,000

So, obviously, crewing on someone else's yacht could reduce the expense considerably. At the time, if my finances had allowed it, I would have worked towards RYA Coastal Skipper. Today however, if the winches were un-powered, I am not sure I would be able to raise the main sail on a cruising yacht.

In the UK I dive in a neoprene dry suit and the rest of the gear.
In the med I'll dive in my semi dry, to 30m with absolutely no issue. If I take it. No boots, gloves, or hood.
If I rent, I'll use whatever they have.
No great issues with anything other than thermoclines, which are rare.
I'll snorkel in anything, usually trunks, if I'm cold I can always get out there and then.

Did you free dive or scuba?
20m in a 7mm wet suit in quite a feat without weights and buoyancy.

If you are still in the water trying to right a dinghy after twenty minutes, and you're overall a metre deep, that's more of an issue than anything else to be honest.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

If it has a keel then it will be difficult to capsize it - in my experience, but that was a Westerly Tiger.
Dinghies go over fairly easily and then need to have some effort put in to get them upright and baled out. I don't see the attraction myself.

The RYA level 1 is a starter course, so, the dinghy is in the mix!

(I piloted a closed lifeboat once, that's impossible to capsize.
I wouldn't say it has a keel though, utterly vomit inducing on a mill pond!)

 

[IrvineHimself]

Did you free dive or scuba?
20m in a 7mm wet suit in quite a feat without weights and buoyancy.

Freedive, most places don't allow tanks when spearfishing. Some do, but, when crossing international borders, having a tank and a speargun on the same boat can get you into a lot of trouble.

I can't remember exactly, I would adjust it depending on the water temp, but for the 2mm suit, which I mainly used when Kayaking, I used about 2 kg. For the 7mm, I think it was about 11 or 12 kg. For the 5mm I currently have 8kg, but, as I recall, for snorkelling, it could probably do with another couple of half kilos or so.

And yes, while free-diving to 60 metres is not uncommon, for me twenty metres is definitely my limit.

By the way, during the summer in the med, under the conditions I describe, thermoclines are not that unusual.

Edit 1:
I might be wrong about the weights I used with the 7mm, It's over 15 years since I was diving in the med and would adjust the weights depending on the conditions

Edit 2:
I didn't, but some acquaintances in the Caribbean, when fishing for octopus, lobster and the like to sell to the restaurants, would use a couple of kilos of weight with just shorts and t-shirt, ie no buoyancy from a wetsuit!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Freedive, most places don't allow tanks when spearfishing. Some do, but, when crossing international borders, having a tank and a speargun on the same boat can get you into a lot of trouble.

I can't remember exactly, I would adjust it depending on the water temp, but for the 2mm suit, which I mainly used when Kayaking, I used about 2 kg. For the 7mm, I think it was about 11 or 12 kg. For the 5mm I currently have 8kg, but, as I recall, for snorkelling, it could probably do with another couple of half kilos or so.

And yes, while free-diving to 60 metres is not uncommon, for me twenty metres is definitely my limit.

By the way, during the summer in the med, under the conditions I describe, thermoclines are not that unusual.

Edit 1:
I might be wrong about the weights I used with the 7mm, It's over 15 years since I was diving in the med and would adjust the weights depending on the conditions

Edit 2:
I didn't, but some acquaintances in the Caribbean, when fishing for octopus, lobster and the like to sell to the restaurants, would use a couple of kilos of weight with just shorts and t-shirt, ie no buoyancy from a wetsuit!

Only ever hit one thermocline, and that was from a freshwater river estuary we knew beforehand.
Really looking forward to this year, and getting out against now the world is open for business again.

Did you freedive down a line?
Or just go for it?

 

[IrvineHimself]

Did you freedive down a line?
Or just go for it?

I was usually spearfishing so it is case of sneaking down a steep incline to get into position. Octopus, lobster... etc, hide in the nooks and crevices and are easily taken by hand. According to the old books, in the sixties, bream and similar fish also took shelter in nooks and crannies, but in modern times, they have changed their behaviour to head deep at the first sign of a speargun.

It's very exciting, especially if you get a large shark coming up the seamount as you are heading down. 😱

 

[Deleted member 21371]

I was usually spearfishing so it is case of sneaking down a steep incline to get into position. Octopus, lobster... etc, hide in the nooks and crevices and are easily taken by hand. According to the old books, in the sixties, bream and similar fish also took shelter in nooks and crannies, but in modern times, they have changed their behaviour to head deep at the first sign of a speargun.

It's very exciting, especially if you get a large shark coming up the seamount as you are heading down. 😱

Yes, sharks are a much maligned creature.
I've been diving with a few.
(Not in a cage)
Octopus are a great thing on a night dive, but I do tend to leave them where I see them.

 

[IrvineHimself]

When spearfishing, the thing about sharks and barracuda is to use a wire-hoop on a coke bottle to keep the catch about thirty or forty metres behind you. The most important thing to do however, is: Don't panic! But rather, without any excessive splashing, very gently swim towards the shore. Combined with the blood trail from the catch, they interpret any splashing to mean that you are in distress and thus on the menu.

Octopus are a great thing on a night dive, but I do tend to leave them where I see them.

These days, I do to. Towards the end, I got kind of sickened by seeing injured fish. I remember a sunfish visited La Ciotat, Everybody and their uncles were going out and buying spearguns to take potshots at it. I have also seen quite a few white tuna, along with various other tropical fish covered in fresh scars after taking a wrong turn into the Gulfe D'Amour

 

[AndBreathe]

During the summer, if there is no wind, the surface temperature of the med can get into the tropical twenties, while, at the same time/place, at as little as 1 metre below the surface, it will be a chilly 16 or 15 degrees or less, (it's average temperature is 12 c)

Given even a moderate breeze, the surface water mixes with this colder water, creating closely spaced layers with widely different temperatures. (As a result, because of the difference in salinity, over the top 10 or 20 metres there can be very noticeable changes in buoyancy.) So, in the med, for general mucking about purposes, a 2mm shorty wetsuit is quite adequate, for spear-fishing and exploration dives, I preferred a nice thick 7mm one-piece both summer and winter. (In the tropics, with water temperatures in the very high twenties, I would settle for a T-shirt to keep the sun off my back.)

I haven't used it for about 5 years, but my current wet-suit is a 5mm two piece. Its okay for a day out snorkelling at St Abbs, but over in the north west coast of Scotland, with only a 5mm neoprene suit, you will see the first signs of hypothermia after about twenty minutes.



Oh I know

It was only an introduction with friends, but I have very fond memories of a riotous week dingy sailing up around Embrum in the high Alps. As I recall, the beach catamaran was particularly 'frisky'.



Yes I have, many times. A few years ago I calculated that a budget circumnavigation would cost around £70,000 to £80,000:

• RYA Yacht master: £10,000 £12,000
• Living expenses for two years: £15,000 to £20,000
• Thirty five year old Rustler, (the link is illustrative.) needing a bit of a TLC: £45,000
• Maintenance and insurance: £5,000

So, obviously, crewing on someone else's yacht could reduce the expense considerably. At the time, if my finances had allowed it, I would have worked towards RYA Coastal Skipper. Today however, if the winches were un-powered, I am not sure I would be able to raise the main sail on a cruising yacht.

On larger boats with massive sail areas, most will carry alternative means of driving winches, like heavy duty cordless drills. Ours were Milwakee Right Angle drills. They worked extremely well , although thankfully never used "in anger" for winch power. As you so rightly say, manually it can be heavy going, without even considering a genoa (* shudder *).

Now then, take yourself off to the naughty step for a while. You have me browsing boats!

 

[Deleted member 21371]

On larger boats with massive sail areas, most will carry alternative means of driving winches, like heavy duty cordless drills. Ours were Milwakee Right Angle drills. They worked extremely well , although thankfully never used "in anger" for winch power. As you so rightly say, manually it can be heavy going, without even considering a genoa (* shudder *).

Now then, take yourself off to the naughty step for a while. You have me browsing boats!

You should never need to give it up.
I always fancied a canal boat one day.
Put on bow and stern thrusters, forward aft thruster, a remote or an AI, laser guidance in, and it can take itself into the locks and mooring when I can't anymore.
The same technology exists for any yacht, couple the sat nav, the auto pilot, automated sail trim.... you'll never need to stop.
Just another crew member.

 

[AndBreathe]

You should never need to give it up.
I always fancied a canal boat one day.
Put on bow and stern thrusters, forward aft thruster, a remote or an AI, laser guidance in, and it can take itself into the locks and mooring when I can't anymore.
The same technology exists for any yacht, couple the sat nav, the auto pilot, automated sail trim.... you'll never need to stop.
Just another crew member.

The thing about all that tech and those gizmos is you assume they will always work, all of the time.
In my view, anyone undertaking ocean going passages would be foolhardy to totally depend on electronics of mechanics.
Of course, they are game-changers and very few want to be winding winches to haul sails up 70+ft masts, but I believe it is important to be able to do it. Same goes for thrusters.

If one is going to rely on engines full time, there's little point in carrying $20k of sails and canvas work around. Better off buying a gin palace, but we chose not to.

We chose. That's the important bit

 

[IrvineHimself]

Also, GPS and other sophisticated navigation aids don't work at high latitudes. (As well as a circumnavigation, I always fancied doing the Norh West and Drake passages)

 

[Deleted member 21371]

The thing about all that tech and those gizmos is you assume they will always work, all of the time.
In my view, anyone undertaking ocean going passages would be foolhardy to totally depend on electronics of mechanics.
Of course, they are game-changers and very few want to be winding winches to haul sails up 70+ft masts, but I believe it is important to be able to do it. Same goes for thrusters.

If one is going to rely on engines full time, there's little point in carrying $20k of sails and canvas work around. Better off buying a gin palace, but we chose not to.

We chose. That's the important bit

Erm, you can lose a sail just as easily.
No screw backup?
At all?
Don't assume anything.

 

[Deleted member 21371]

Also, GPS and other sophisticated navigation aids don't work at high latitudes. (As well as a circumnavigation, I always fancied doing the Norh West and Drake passages)

The GPS on my watch and my car will work at those latitudes.
Even a Fitbit supports Glonass now, if you want to venture further.
(Just for the record, I'm not a Fitbit person)
Just thinking about it over a G&T.
I was out in the sea ten years before the GPS was actually in the sky.
Feeling old!

 

[IrvineHimself]

I just emailed Port Edgar and explained my health situation. I also asked about the taster experience, but I think the last one of the season is fully booked. However, here appear to be free slots for RYA Keelboat level 1 in October and November.

By the way, looking at this image on the Port Edgar website, the crew and instructor do not appear to be wearing wetsuits. Although, particularly in November, there is a bloody cold wind blows off the North sea.

I just dug out some wet weather gear I bought in the yachting department at Decathlon in Aubagne about twenty five years ago. It consists of a jacket and two pairs of waterproof trousers, with one pair trouser being insulated. They were one of the best things I ever bought, cheap (on sale at 15 euro), lightweight and compact enough to be forgotten at the bottom of a rucksack. As a result, they have not been exposed to the sun and are still in good condition.

 

[AndBreathe]

Erm, you can lose a sail just as easily.
No screw backup?
At all?
Don't assume anything.

Don't worry, @travellor. We did our own risk assessments, coupled with lifestyle choices and plain old wants and needs and made our own decision which we own.

Life has now taken us to new adventures in different ways. Adventures don't end. They sometimes just change a bit.