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Insulin for protein

R

Radders

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
I did Dafne many years ago and in those days my medical team were persuaded that protein does not affect blood sugar.
Obviously it does. How does everyone work out how to bolus for it please?
I ask because I’m currently unable to eat anything that requires chewing due to an unfortunate encounter between my face & the pavement. I also have my arm in a cast so can’t prepare meals & liquidise them so after 3 days of existing mostly on tinned soup I thought a low sugar protein shake would be a good idea.
Total carbs 3 g, total protein 28 g and so I cautiously dosed enough for 10g carbs. I was shocked at the spike in my level which went from around 5 to over 9 within half an hour then stayed there until I corrected. My understanding was that the conversion of protein to blood glucose was quite slow and only about half what the equivalent amount of carbs would do.
Also, if my body’s converting ALL the protein to glucose, how do I get it to stop, as I feel I need the protein for repair at the moment!
 
Ouch! I’m really sorry to hear you've damaged yourself!
I find I don’t start to rise if i’ve had, say, scrambled eggs for breakfast, until a couple of hours later, I normally have to bolus for the protein at least an hour after eating or I go low. But this is obviously not your experience. It may be one of those things where you have to experiment a few times to work out what works for you personally.
What time of day was it when you had your protein shake? If it was morning, could your liver have been helping out with glucose release as the Dawn effect?
I’m not sure, but I think your body might raid the protein for repair needs before it converts the excess, I understood your body would only ever convert about half of protein to glucose in any case, and hopefully it will prioritise repair of it needs to.
Do you have one good arm? Can you shake an egg and milk in a cocktail shaker or jar with a lid, possibly with a cautious amount of sugar or sweeten it, hoping that the protein and fat in the other ingredients will slow it down? That might be more balanced than a low carb shake?
 
Protein is a tricky one, and it varies a great deal from person to person - it has little effect on me spike-wise but does raise my BG over time albeit gradually - I think it's a case of trial and error and experimentation - and sorry to hear about your interactions with the pavement - hope you are better soon!
 
To help stop your body converting the protein to glucose, eat/drink some carbs with it @Radders I appreciate that’s very hard when you can’t chew, but, for example, some soups have a reasonable amount of carbs. I think Gary Scheiner said most people needed 30g carbs in a meal to stop the protein being turned to glucose. Are you able to boil a kettle to make some gravy and pour it over some pre-prepared mashed potato? That would give you a good amount of carbs in a small volume of food.
 
Great question and answers. @Inka is correct - it works, but I'm keeping low carb so I can get away with about 10g carbs per 50g protein to make it all manageable.
I also need to stop eating too much protein before 7pm or BG will be over 10 by morning - no more late night chicken wings, ribs, soya yogurts or cheese board - all banned now :(
 
Really sorry to hear about your fall and injuries. Wishing you a smooth and speedy recovery.

I would query the nutritional info of your protein drink as 3g carbs seems very low indeed. What was it?
Protein takes about 2 hours to start releasing, so something other than that protein caused that spike after half an hour. Generally these drinks are quite highly processed so whatever carbs are in them will release quite quickly

I follow a low carb way of eating but I don't calculate the insulin I need for protein, I just keep an eye an my Libre and when my levels start to drift upwards 2 hours after a meal and my high alarm goes off at 8.2 I inject 2 units and if it continues to go up 45mins later I inject another 1-2 units. This is just what I have found works for me using Fiasp, so I am by no means suggesting anyone else does the same, but it means I don't really do any calculating. I do usually prebolus for whatever carbs there are first but it is generally just a couple of units and then whatever the protein dictates later via my Libre.

Because DAFNE promotes "Normal Eating" protein release is not considered because normally there are enough carbs in each meal to prevent protein conversion to glucose.
 
Robin said:
Ouch! I’m really sorry to hear you've damaged yourself!
I find I don’t start to rise if i’ve had, say, scrambled eggs for breakfast, until a couple of hours later, I normally have to bolus for the protein at least an hour after eating or I go low. But this is obviously not your experience. It may be one of those things where you have to experiment a few times to work out what works for you personally.
What time of day was it when you had your protein shake? If it was morning, could your liver have been helping out with glucose release as the Dawn effect?
I’m not sure, but I think your body might raid the protein for repair needs before it converts the excess, I understood your body would only ever convert about half of protein to glucose in any case, and hopefully it will prioritise repair of it needs to.
Do you have one good arm? Can you shake an egg and milk in a cocktail shaker or jar with a lid, possibly with a cautious amount of sugar or sweeten it, hoping that the protein and fat in the other ingredients will slow it down? That might be more balanced than a low carb shake?
Click to expand...
It was lunchtime, so no dawn phenomenon. Cannot face the idea of raw egg at all, sorry! I thought the same about converting protein and if it did that then I was half a unit short with my insulin so that would explain the rise but not the speed of it. Would peanut butter mix into a shake I wonder?
 
Inka said:
To help stop your body converting the protein to glucose, eat/drink some carbs with it @Radders I appreciate that’s very hard when you can’t chew, but, for example, some soups have a reasonable amount of carbs. I think Gary Scheiner said most people needed 30g carbs in a meal to stop the protein being turned to glucose. Are you able to boil a kettle to make some gravy and pour it over some pre-prepared mashed potato? That would give you a good amount of carbs in a small volume of
Click to expand...
 
I can see that eating carbs with it would stop the protein being converted but I think I’d get a worse spike with the carbs in mash! Food for thought though, thank you.
 
rebrascora said:
Really sorry to hear about your fall and injuries. Wishing you a smooth and speedy recovery.

I would query the nutritional info of your protein drink as 3g carbs seems very low indeed. What was it?
Protein takes about 2 hours to start releasing, so something other than that protein caused that spike after half an hour. Generally these drinks are quite highly processed so whatever carbs are in them will release quite quickly

I follow a low carb way of eating but I don't calculate the insulin I need for protein, I just keep an eye an my Libre and when my levels start to drift upwards 2 hours after a meal and my high alarm goes off at 8.2 I inject 2 units and if it continues to go up 45mins later I inject another 1-2 units. This is just what I have found works for me using Fiasp, so I am by no means suggesting anyone else does the same, but it means I don't really do any calculating. I do usually prebolus for whatever carbs there are first but it is generally just a couple of units and then whatever the protein dictates later via my Libre.

Because DAFNE promotes "Normal Eating" protein release is not considered because normally there are enough carbs in each meal to prevent protein conversion to glucose.
Click to expand...
It’s PHD Smart Plant protein - no sugar as I figured sugar in a drink would be asking for a spike. I’m sure I’ve had it before after exercise and didn’t take any insulin for it but I can’t really do much exercise at the moment.
I use a pump so can do extended boluses which might work a bit like your correction doses I suppose.
It’s interesting to hear of different ways people manage their regime!
 
Jasmin2000 said:
Great question and answers. @Inka is correct - it works, but I'm keeping low carb so I can get away with about 10g carbs per 50g protein to make it all manageable.
I also need to stop eating too much protein before 7pm or BG will be over 10 by morning - no more late night chicken wings, ribs, soya yogurts or cheese board - all banned now :(
Click to expand...
Why are you eating low carb and letting diabetes stop you eating what you like?
A healthy diet for someone with Type 1 is the same as one for someone without diabetes because the treatment for Type 1 is insulin not diet.
 
Radders said:
I can see that eating carbs with it would stop the protein being converted but I think I’d get a worse spike with the carbs in mash! Food for thought though, thank you.
Click to expand...

If you’re unfortunately having to eat liquid foods, then yes they might get absorbed quicker, having been pre broken down, but you should be able to pre-bolus earlier to reduce any spike. You might also find your basal rates need adjusting at certain times of the day due to inactivity.

Having looked at that protein drink, it’s not high carb at all, so it weird you had that sudden rise. I’d put the rise down to your enforced change in lifestyle and/or possible changes needed to your insulin. Have you had to greatly reduce your carb intake over the course of a day due to the limited foods you can eat? If so, that can cause annoying and random highs as your body pumps out more glucose to deal with the lack of carbs and increases insulin resistance.

It must be very frustrating and limiting for you. I hope you’re able to chew better soon and make a quick recovery.
 

Inka said:
If you’re unfortunately having to eat liquid foods, then yes they might get absorbed quicker, having been pre broken down, but you should be able to pre-bolus earlier to reduce any spike. You might also find your basal rates need adjusting at certain times of the day due to inactivity.

Having looked at that protein drink, it’s not high carb at all, so it weird you had that sudden rise. I’d put the rise down to your enforced change in lifestyle and/or possible changes needed to your insulin. Have you had to greatly reduce your carb intake over the course of a day due to the limited foods you can eat? If so, that can cause annoying and random highs as your body pumps out more glucose to deal with the lack of carbs and increases insulin resistance.

It must be very frustrating and limiting for you. I hope you’re able to chew better soon and make a quick recovery.
Click to expand...
On reflection I think there might have been something else going on so I’m going to try it again, mainly because I have a whole bag of the stuff and I won’t waste food.
I’m getting more lows than highs - this is the first random high. I have of course adjusted my bolusing. I know from past experience that pre-bolusing is vital for any carbs and I normally use a 30 minute 50/50 dual bolus for carbs and wait until the whole dose has finished before I eat, unless I’m already under 5. I tend not to eat huge amounts of carbs with meals normally as I get better control that way although I’m by no means low-carbing.
I’m awaiting an appointment at the dental trauma dept at King’s Hospital so I think it might be a matter of weeks unfortunately!
Thank you very much for your suggestions and kind wishes.
 
helli said:
Why are you eating low carb and letting diabetes stop you eating what you like?
Click to expand...
That's a weird thing to say. Carbs per se simply don't interest me as flavours come from protein and fat. My reason for a low-carb diet is that it's just natural (paleo-like) and together with exercise means I eat whatever I like. BG control benefits too but diabetes is not stopping anything. As OP identified the challenge for me is controlling protein to glucose conversion but that's where exercise comes in.

helli said:
A healthy diet for someone with Type 1 is the same as one for someone without diabetes because the treatment for Type 1 is insulin not diet.
Click to expand...
Again, a strange thing to say as "someone without diabetes" could be anyone, athlete or obesity sufferer. Insulin + diet + exercise is what an athlete uses and excess carbs + insulin + no diet control + no exercise is what the obese person has. With my balance I sometimes only need basal insulin for days and still eat my favorite foods, they simply don't contain stacks of carbs.
 
Radders said:
I did Dafne many years ago and in those days my medical team were persuaded that protein does not affect blood sugar.
Obviously it does. How does everyone work out how to bolus for it please?
I ask because I’m currently unable to eat anything that requires chewing due to an unfortunate encounter between my face & the pavement. I also have my arm in a cast so can’t prepare meals & liquidise them so after 3 days of existing mostly on tinned soup I thought a low sugar protein shake would be a good idea.
Total carbs 3 g, total protein 28 g and so I cautiously dosed enough for 10g carbs. I was shocked at the spike in my level which went from around 5 to over 9 within half an hour then stayed there until I corrected. My understanding was that the conversion of protein to blood glucose was quite slow and only about half what the equivalent amount of carbs would do.
Also, if my body’s converting ALL the protein to glucose, how do I get it to stop, as I feel I need the protein for repair at the moment!
Click to expand...

You have my sympathy @Radders I've made contact many a time with pavements when out & about.

With you being on pump it should be more manageable to bolus for protein than on injections, know when I went low carb many years ago it meant having to inject up to 10 times a day in a attempt to keep bg within range, anyone who can eat low carb meals & not bolus are extremely lucky as my insulin usage never changed from before starting diet.

Tbh with a bit of determination all foods are doable in my own experience, so tend not to limit many only ones I don't like. Here's to a speedy recovery.
 
Last edited:
Sorry to hear of your fall and injuries @Radders

I eat carbs with most meals, having found that with an absence of carbs I need to account for the protein. That is a whole other lot of other info to sort out along with the timings for pre bolusing, which I find is very different. After a few experiments I decided to keep things simple and eat enough carbs to avoid the problem.

You mention tinned soups, which I find very sweet, and prefer to have the cartons instead which seem to be less sweet. There are other meal substitutes such as Huel. I have not tried them but know others who have (time pressures and trying to avoid meal deals of grotty sandwiches etc). They don’t seem to involve any chewing.

I hope that you mend quickly @Radders
 
SB2015 said:
Sorry to hear of your fall and injuries @Radders

I eat carbs with most meals, having found that with an absence of carbs I need to account for the protein. That is a whole other lot of other info to sort out along with the timings for pre bolusing, which I find is very different. After a few experiments I decided to keep things simple and eat enough carbs to avoid the problem.

You mention tinned soups, which I find very sweet, and prefer to have the cartons instead which seem to be less sweet. There are other meal substitutes such as Huel. I have not tried them but know others who have (time pressures and trying to avoid meal deals of grotty sandwiches etc). They don’t seem to involve any chewing.

I hope that you mend quickly @Radders
Click to expand...
It’s interesting that you find things easier with carbs and I think I agree.
The reason I went for the protein shake was that as a veggie I find that few of the soups available seem to contain much protein at all!
Now that I have the packet I will soldier on with the stuff but try & find some form of carbs I can eat at the same time. I’m thinking of going for stewed fruit as 6 days of this has left me with a big bowl of fruit and more due with tonight’s delivery!
Just need a robot chef to prepare it for me!
 
Radders said:
It was lunchtime, so no dawn phenomenon. Cannot face the idea of raw egg at all, sorry! I thought the same about converting protein and if it did that then I was half a unit short with my insulin so that would explain the rise but not the speed of it. Would peanut butter mix into a shake I wonder?
Click to expand...
Try cooking the egg mix gently in a microwave so it has a very soft consistency. For shakes maybe try yoghurt with almond butter and defrosted frozen berries.
Sorry to hear about your face and arm injuries and best wishes for a speedy recovery
 
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