Hi - new Type 3C patient

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Silvershoes

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After suffering chronic pancreatitis,I had pancreatic surgery in January. Consultant has confirmed I have type 3C diabetes which is related to pancreatic damage. Would love to learn a bit more about it and other people’s experiences of monitoring levels. Cheers!
 
Hi and thank you for the warm welcome.

I was unexpectedly diagnosed 2 years ago with type 2 a couple of months before my first pancreatic episode. I was taking Metformin. Blood sugars kept climbing and at the request of pancreatic consultant I was put on Toujeo once a day injection as well. I had been on Dapafliglizin too but that was stopped because of possible problem with pancreas. Since surgery blood sugars are all over the place. GP has given me a trial Libre which has shown some alarming rise and falls.
 
Hello @Silvershoes, welcome to this unusual club!

My T3c is very different in origins to yours, I surrendered my full pancreas to major surgery as part of my treatment for pancreatic cancer. This made me an instant full-on diabetic person needing insulin; both basal (long lasting) and bolus (more rapid) under a regime referred to as Multiple Daily Injections (MDI). So in some respects my D is more akin to that of those with T1 diabetes - but I'm definitely not T1 and don't have the autoimmune circumstances they have.

I am pleased your GP has provided you with a trial Libre 2; that is pleasantly progressive of him/her. GPs are now authorised to prescribe CGMs like Libre, but weren't allowed to do that without being directed to do so by a Consultant before mid 2022. There is a legacy reluctance of GPs to prescribe such devices. You will find this "apparently instant" flood of information from your Libre both informative and sometimes alarming (often not always necessarily). Also CGMs such as Libre need a certain amount of understanding in order that the user gets the best value out of it. Below is a thread explaing some of the limitations of such devices, written originally when Libre was the main device available. I suggest a thorough read through that thread to help you, particularly when this tech is potentially bamboozled you.


Giving you Toujeo, which is a basal (= background) insulin leaves you firmly in 2 camps: that of being T2 and expected to manage with oral meds (but now supplemented by 1 x daily Toujeo) along with your own dietary measures to regulate the carbs you eat (aided by your Libre); plus in the T3c camp as a result of damage to your Pancreas from your earlier pancreatitis and the pancreatic surgery in January. I would find this all pretty confusing and feel for your plight. Some questions, if I may, please.

1 . When you were first started as a T2 what guidance were you originally given about a strategy for managing your T2? If none, that's a shame but surprisingly frequently found; if some, are you still using that guidance as much as you reasonably can nowadays? I'm trying to get a feel for what you already know and understand about managing your blood glucose.

2. What was your guidance for making use of the Toujeo? Were you put on daily fixed doses? Are these being monitored by someone? Eg your pancreatic Consultant? Have those doses been adjusted by you, either unilaterally or under guidance? An extension of this question are you clear about what is being expected from the Toujeo? Were the risks of going hypoglycaemic explained to you?

3. Do you have your own copy of the Surgical report from January? I got full details on my hospital discharge paperwork, but I'm not sure everyone routinely gets such info without asking in advance. If you don't have this can you see the report on your on-line medical records? I'm trying to understand how much pancreatic damage now exists, before trying to wrestle with what sort of knowledge I have could be usefully shared with you.

4. Sorry, (yes another question, inflation is everywhere!): are you still under the Pancreatic Consultant for periodic reviews? You should be, since everything you've said indicates that you don't feel at all stable yet in your current, new, medical status. I suspect this might not be the case since your GP stepped up with Libre for you. Incidentally your Libre trial ought not to be a trial; Libre needs to be part of your future BG management for any foreseeable future. Do you have an open invite to self- refer yourself back to that Consultant?

Your GP has been splendid and stepped up with providing Libre. But you, thanks to your verified pancreatic damage from surgery, have moved out of the normal scope of a General Practicioner and should be firmly under a Consultant right now. It could be that in time to come you get a great D management strategy and your Consultant could sign you off and pass you back to your GP. But will take time.

I am NOT a medically qualified person, just someone who's had to wrestle with a medley of different Consultants and find a path through all of that. Do please try and answer this barrage of questions if you can and wish to share, also do please feel free to ask other questions. No question is stupid. There are several other T3cs whose diagnosis has come directly as a consequence of having pancreatitis (eg @eggyg and more) and who will understand much more about how that disease (pancreatitis) sits alongside your other disease of diabetes. They will, I'm sure, be along shortly. Good luck.
 
Thank you for your detailed reply - I no will do my best to reply.
10 years before pancreatitis I had a twisted bowel and quite a bit of colon removed. I only mention that as following that surgery I developed rheumatoid arthritis and Graves’ disease. I was considered to have an autoimmune disposition.
D2 was only found incidentally during pre-op tests for foot surgery. I was not aware I had pancreatitis until a crisis episode and I ended up in hospital for quite some time. The panc cons indicated previous trauma may have contributed to pancreatic damage and/or autoimmune disease. I wasn’t a typical heavy drinker or had gallstone problems.
Following excellent follow ups at Liverpool I had repeated scans which showed deterioration of the pancreas and stone build up. I had Puestow procedure in January, part of head removed and reconnected. Surgery was a success but problems with D2 increased weeks later.
I had been seen previously by the local gp nurse and when she saw the graph of my finger prick recordings offered me the trial Libre 2. It’s been a godsend/millstone in identifying just how erratic my glucose levels are acting, particularly overnight. There appears to be no correlation between diet/highs etc. I am 62, 11st and was, until recently a very active person. I eat a healthy diet and am conscious of carb control etc - although I confess to a sweet tooth when allowed.
I am still under the pancreas cons at Liverpool and saw him for a review last week. He confirmed type 3C and called it “erratic”.
I had a phone call from our gp nurse this morning who said they needed confirmation in writing from the cons re 3C plus to apply for funding for future monitors. That letter is apparently en route! I’m not sure what else I need to do to apply for ongoing monitors. Our nurse said she would contact the practices diabetes head nurse, who visits surgery every month or so, to learn more about 3C.
I see the Panc cons again in November - which is a positive sign the pancreatic surgery was a success. I have been warned the surgery had not cured the chronic pancreatitis so will presumably remain under the umbrella of the Liverpool team for a while.

I hope I’ve answered your questions - I’m afraid I can’t read your post whilst replying.

Thank you for your interest - I hope you are keeping strong and well following your own surgery.
 
After suffering chronic pancreatitis,I had pancreatic surgery in January. Consultant has confirmed I have type 3C diabetes which is related to pancreatic damage. Would love to learn a bit more about it and other people’s experiences of monitoring levels. Cheers!
Welcome to the forum if under circumstances we would each prefer not to have but no matter.
Good to see Roland has given you a detailed response and hopefully you will learn more about the vagaries of Type 3c.
Mine was brought about by an acute pancreatitis attack about 2 years ago and a few spells in hospital but no surgery and then diagnosed with Diabetes last August.
With any pancreatic damage/ surgery and mine was due to the necrosis of cells during my attack you are susceptible to a diagnosis of Diabetes sometime afterwards.
I am still in the honeymoon period sobBeta cells still producing some insulin but don’t know how much.
When your diabetes was described as erratic it probably means more brittle so as well as affecting the Beta cells which regulate insulin it can effect the Alpha cells which regulate Glucagon.
Please feel free in terms of asking any questions and I find I can live a pretty normal life with my insulin but everyone is different.
Take care
 
Thank you for your reply.
Strangely enough I felt the best I’d been for some time before my panc cons announced the findings of the latest scan and that I needed immediate surgery. It seemed wrong to put my body through major trauma when I was not symptomatic but I’m glad I had it done. He told me they cannot operate (safely) during a flare up so I was in a good position for surgery. It’s almost removed the risk, hopefully, of a complete blockage and necrosis so I consider myself very fortunate.

I do not mind the new regime of Creon enzymes (I have to take 15 a day) but wonder if they impact the insulin side of things. Without them I lose weight rapidly. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about!
It’s just not quite knowing how to get the balance of insulin and metformin right to sustain my levels. Since wearing the Linre monitor it’s certainly opened my eyes to the huge variances which don’t appear to be related to food intake. A panc nurse suggested asking for a glucose load test? It’s all being looked at and I seem to gave excellent support from both my local gp practice nurses and hospital consultant at Liverpool. However our nurse didn’t know about T3C so was asking for advice.
It’s a strange new world, but one I’m very glad to be part of
Thanks again for your reply.
 
Hi. Can you post a photo of a daily graph so that we can see the sort of meal spikes you are getting? I think many people assume that BG levels stay fairly flatish and even long term diabetics who obtained Libre were quite horrified by how much their BG varied, when they had been used to just testing before meals and bedtime when things had more of less returned to baseline levels. Understanding what is within the normal range is important when looking at Libre graphs.

As regards overnight levels dropping, could these be what we call compression lows, where the Libre gives a false low reading when you lie on it. It takes about 15 mins of lying on it for it to start to drop and will usually drop quite quickly but will rebound after about 15-30 mins when the pressure is released. If my low alarm goes off overnight I firstly make note of which side I am lying on when I wake up and then I look at the graph to see if there has been a slow descent into the red or a sharp dip.... the latter being a good indication of a compression low. If you don't wake up (maybe you don't have the alarms set or whatever) and the graph shows your levels return to their previous reading or slightly higher and then settled back down, that is a classic compression low graph. If you wake up and treat the low without double checking with a finger prick, then levels will usually go too high afterwards, despite a very modest hypo treatment. If you toss and turn a lot in your sleep then you may be compressing and releasing the sensor and that will cause erratic levels overnight.
 
Thank you for your reply.
Strangely enough I felt the best I’d been for some time before my panc cons announced the findings of the latest scan and that I needed immediate surgery. It seemed wrong to put my body through major trauma when I was not symptomatic but I’m glad I had it done. He told me they cannot operate (safely) during a flare up so I was in a good position for surgery. It’s almost removed the risk, hopefully, of a complete blockage and necrosis so I consider myself very fortunate.

I do not mind the new regime of Creon enzymes (I have to take 15 a day) but wonder if they impact the insulin side of things. Without them I lose weight rapidly. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about!
It’s just not quite knowing how to get the balance of insulin and metformin right to sustain my levels. Since wearing the Linre monitor it’s certainly opened my eyes to the huge variances which don’t appear to be related to food intake. A panc nurse suggested asking for a glucose load test? It’s all being looked at and I seem to gave excellent support from both my local gp practice nurses and hospital consultant at Liverpool. However our nurse didn’t know about T3C so was asking for advice.
It’s a strange new world, but one I’m very glad to be part of
Thanks again for your reply.
No worries Silvershoes,
It just takes time to readjust and information to take on board often helps and you will find plenty experience on here to help you with that and support yourself if required.
You seem to have good local support from your GP and presume Aintree or Royal Liverpool which is a real bonus.
I presume you are on the 25k Creon and I take 8 or 9 a day but again find them fine and although I am on purely insulin I manage to get by pretty well and although it is possible I could manage with a combination of Metaformin and/ or insulin my current routine works fine for me so happy to continue with it.
I only had the one acute episode with few pre attack symptoms but it was a fairly serious occurrence and a few complications.
But my recovery seems fine and as I said before I live a very normal life just with the taking of the Creon/ insulin and simply get on with it as before.
ATB
 
Welcome @Silvershoes from another Type 3c.
My diabetes was caused by one severe episode of necrotising pancreatitis. Glad you managed to avoid necrosis.
It's good to hear that you're receiving support from your consultant and practice nurse.
Hopefully the information you've already recieved has been helpful. Do ask if you have any other questions. We''re always happy to help!
 
@Silvershoes, thank you for the further information. You certainly had a long and no doubt very wearisome introduction to this world of pancreatic underperformance and now T3c. I hope (expect) that with your Consultant's letter your Libre will be put on a permanent prescription basis. Given that GPs were authorised to write such prescriptions in their own right a couple of years ago, such petty bureaucracy and administration ought not to be brought anywhere near the patient; but so be it.

There can be confusion about Diabetes Nurses and Diabetes Specialist Nurses (DSNs). In a GP Surgery there is often a Nurse on the Practice's permanent staff who has the lead for the care and management of patients with T2 diabetes, perhaps including Gestational diabetes. Such Nurses are often referred to as the Diabetes Nurse; but they don't get to see the insulin dependent T1s, who normally come under Hospital based teams, which include DSNs. From what you say your Practice has a DSN visit periodically to help with those more unusual diabetic cases and probably along the way that DSN is training a Practice Nurse in some of those oddities they wouldn't normally come across with more routine T2 treatments.

Very few Health Care Professionals (HCPs) have heard of or come across someone with T3c; so I'm far from surprised that your Practice Nurse was not familiar with your diagnosis. In reality you will become the expert in your T3c and as you become more stable, with your experiences from trial and learning, you will be unilaterally adjusting what you need to do to remain comfortable.

I didn't talk about Creon, there was already so much to mention. My understanding is that you cannot overdose on Creon and you need what you need. There is information on an NHS website about the colour and texture of one's bowel motions (a series of pictures), which I needed to refer to while trying to get that aspect of my life back under control. If your digestive enzymes aren't playing then what you eat isn't providing the nutrition you need - hence the weight loss you refer to. In my case, after my total pancreatectomy, I couldn't get any sort of metabolic stability; I was at first on pre-determined doses of insulin and of course some meals were not creating enough carbs so I was constantly low and repeatedly going hypo, then going too high as my hypo response snacks were giving me glucose with minimal need for digestion. Nowadays I have the measure of this and get through 1 tub of 100 x 25k creon capsules every 3 days. So in excess of 30 per day. Much less Creon and my BG goes haywire!

Because I am wholly insulin dependent I don't have any experience in juggling a basal insulin like Toujeo and Metformin to achieve a useful measure of BG stability. I agree with @rebrascora's thought to post a day's graph from a screenshot of your Libre results and I suspect some of the clever folk here who enjoy a bit of detective work might see a pattern that can be tweaked to help you get more stability. In general many of us found it useful to have simple, lowish carb breakfasts that are very repeatable day by day. From your Libre you should be able to find an optimum first meal of the day that gives you a stable start to the day. Then move on to your lunches. Don't expect flat graph lines through the day; rather expect after eating a definite rise in BG then a steady recovery as your body manages that meal. And so on.

I am also not familiar with the Puestow Procedure, but I can see from a Google search that it has a good and safe outcome for many people, which bodes well for you.

I think that is enough for now; I'm awake at this silly time since I've had a turbulent (erratic!) day and I got pretty close to hypo just before midnight. After treating that with a measured amount of fast carbs (200ml orange juice carton, total 18gms of carbs) I prefer to stay awake and check that my BG has eventually stabilised. This is the brilliance of having CGM, I'm able to stay calm and gracefully wait and watch. Now back at a steady 6.2 I can happily go to sleep.
 
Welcome to the forum @Silvershoes

Glad you’ve connected with some of our friendly and helpful ‘creonistas’. :D

Your experience of meeting healthcare professionals unfamiliar with Type 3c isn’t all that uncommon I’m afraid. One of our T3c members @eggyg had a long and difficult time trying to break through that particular wall if I remember right.
 
Welcome @Silvershoes from another Type 3c.
My diabetes was caused by one severe episode of necrotising pancreatitis. Glad you managed to avoid necrosis.
It's good to hear that you're receiving support from your consultant and practice nurse.
Hopefully the information you've already recieved has been helpful. Do ask if you have any other questions. We''re always happy to help!
Thank you - sorry Ive been off the boil for a while but back to it now.
GP has issued me with two new Libre monitors so I’m relieved to have them, if only for a short while until by BG settle down a bit. It’s been useful to get a picture of what’s happening. My niece is a paediatric dietitian who has T1 diabetes and she thinks I have “dawn phenomena” as my bloods go high after about 4am. It’s all a big learning curve but I’ve read a lot of useful information on here.
Thanks for the welcome!
 
@Silvershoes, thank you for the further information. You certainly had a long and no doubt very wearisome introduction to this world of pancreatic underperformance and now T3c. I hope (expect) that with your Consultant's letter your Libre will be put on a permanent prescription basis. Given that GPs were authorised to write such prescriptions in their own right a couple of years ago, such petty bureaucracy and administration ought not to be brought anywhere near the patient; but so be it.

There can be confusion about Diabetes Nurses and Diabetes Specialist Nurses (DSNs). In a GP Surgery there is often a Nurse on the Practice's permanent staff who has the lead for the care and management of patients with T2 diabetes, perhaps including Gestational diabetes. Such Nurses are often referred to as the Diabetes Nurse; but they don't get to see the insulin dependent T1s, who normally come under Hospital based teams, which include DSNs. From what you say your Practice has a DSN visit periodically to help with those more unusual diabetic cases and probably along the way that DSN is training a Practice Nurse in some of those oddities they wouldn't normally come across with more routine T2 treatments.

Very few Health Care Professionals (HCPs) have heard of or come across someone with T3c; so I'm far from surprised that your Practice Nurse was not familiar with your diagnosis. In reality you will become the expert in your T3c and as you become more stable, with your experiences from trial and learning, you will be unilaterally adjusting what you need to do to remain comfortable.

I didn't talk about Creon, there was already so much to mention. My understanding is that you cannot overdose on Creon and you need what you need. There is information on an NHS website about the colour and texture of one's bowel motions (a series of pictures), which I needed to refer to while trying to get that aspect of my life back under control. If your digestive enzymes aren't playing then what you eat isn't providing the nutrition you need - hence the weight loss you refer to. In my case, after my total pancreatectomy, I couldn't get any sort of metabolic stability; I was at first on pre-determined doses of insulin and of course some meals were not creating enough carbs so I was constantly low and repeatedly going hypo, then going too high as my hypo response snacks were giving me glucose with minimal need for digestion. Nowadays I have the measure of this and get through 1 tub of 100 x 25k creon capsules every 3 days. So in excess of 30 per day. Much less Creon and my BG goes haywire!

Because I am wholly insulin dependent I don't have any experience in juggling a basal insulin like Toujeo and Metformin to achieve a useful measure of BG stability. I agree with @rebrascora's thought to post a day's graph from a screenshot of your Libre results and I suspect some of the clever folk here who enjoy a bit of detective work might see a pattern that can be tweaked to help you get more stability. In general many of us found it useful to have simple, lowish carb breakfasts that are very repeatable day by day. From your Libre you should be able to find an optimum first meal of the day that gives you a stable start to the day. Then move on to your lunches. Don't expect flat graph lines through the day; rather expect after eating a definite rise in BG then a steady recovery as your body manages that meal. And so on.

I am also not familiar with the Puestow Procedure, but I can see from a Google search that it has a good and safe outcome for many people, which bodes well for you.

I think that is enough for now; I'm awake at this silly time since I've had a turbulent (erratic!) day and I got pretty close to hypo just before midnight. After treating that with a measured amount of fast carbs (200ml orange juice carton, total 18gms of carbs) I prefer to stay awake and check that my BG has eventually stabilised. This is the brilliance of having CGM, I'm able to stay calm and gracefully wait and watch. Now back at a steady 6.2 I can happily go to sleep.
Thanks for your reply - I’ve not been on here for a bit so apologies for my late response.
Creon - oh the joys.
Welcome to the forum @Silvershoes

Glad you’ve connected with some of our friendly and helpful ‘creonistas’. :D

Your experience of meeting healthcare professionals unfamiliar with Type 3c isn’t all that uncommon I’m afraid. One of our T3c members @eggyg had a long and difficult time trying to break through that particular wall if I remember right.
thank you - it’s certainly a steep learning curve. I’m lucky my wife likes to google all the medical stuff as she felt our local gp nurse wasn’t fully au fait with type 3C. I wasn’t sure if high doses of Creon (9 per meal and 4 with snacks” were affecting blood sugars too.
I’ve been lucky with pancreatic support but this forum has been great for getting done good advice.
 
After suffering chronic pancreatitis,I had pancreatic surgery in January. Consultant has confirmed I have type 3C diabetes which is related to pancreatic damage. Would love to learn a bit more about it and other people’s experiences of monitoring levels. Cheers!
Hi Silvershoes I also had a similar experience as you, I too contracted pancreatitis, just over a year ago, then in May this year, I got the life-changing news, I also had diabetes, although its not yet confirmed, its more than likely type 3c like you. Like you, I'm still trying to come to terms with it, it was a bolt from the blue! Eventually, I'm sure we will both get over it, although everyone is different. At least you are not alone with this, I am going through it too.
Take care of yourself, all the best to you.
 
Hi Silvershoes I also had a similar experience as you, I too contracted pancreatitis, just over a year ago, then in May this year, I got the life-changing news, I also had diabetes, although its not yet confirmed, its more than likely type 3c like you. Like you, I'm still trying to come to terms with it, it was a bolt from the blue! Eventually, I'm sure we will both get over it, although everyone is different. At least you are not alone with this, I am going through it too.
Take care of yourself, all the best to you.
Welcome to the club! I’ve recently been given a Libre 2 monitor as my BG levels are all over the place since my pancreatic surgery in January. My insulin (was 8 units pre surgery) is now 20+ a day plus metformin. I’m not “affected” by it luckily but haven’t found any reasons for highs/lows yet. I’m asking (on the advice of someone on here) to be referred to the hospital diabetes nurses as our GP diabetes nurse is not very knowledgeable on Type 3C. It’s a strange new world - all the best to you - keep in touch!
 
Morning everyone! 🙂
 
Welcome to the club! I’ve recently been given a Libre 2 monitor as my BG levels are all over the place since my pancreatic surgery in January. My insulin (was 8 units pre surgery) is now 20+ a day plus metformin. I’m not “affected” by it luckily but haven’t found any reasons for highs/lows yet. I’m asking (on the advice of someone on here) to be referred to the hospital diabetes nurses as our GP diabetes nurse is not very knowledgeable on Type 3C. It’s a strange new world - all the best to you - keep in touch!
Sorry I missed this message, thank you. Nice to meet you!
 
Morning! 🙂
 
Good morning Paul @Busdriver60 and @Silvershoes.

I was wondering how each of you are getting on. You've each had a few days to get a little more used to some of this D malarkey with the potential deluge of information from your Libre 2s.

@Silvershoes60 I have a cousin who's been T1 for many years and I quite unashamedly tapped into his knowledge and experience. I was very "needy" at first, particularly because Covid lock down was intruding into everything and distracting everyone! Mostly though I didn't have CGM and was simply lost; all quite frightening really. So a T1 niece who is also a dietitian is a dream scenario! It sounds as though your Libre 2 is now established as a fixture on your repeat prescriptions and if it is not "shake" whatever tree you can find to make it so. You are entitled and no HCP should be allowed to even think that being T3c somehow undermines that entitlement.

Paul, pleased to see that you are getting reassurance that your karate can continue. I happen to live very close to Bracknell and now just back from a bit of travel to Paris, I would be happy to meet you and enjoy a coffee somewhere locally. If you think this might be a help please "PM" me using the envelope on the top right of your screen and we can look for a convenient date/time. Please don't feel you are now obligated to do this. Entirely your choice.

Both of you, in his book "Think Like a Pancreas" the author Gary Scheiner states "Diabetes is Complicated, Confusing and Contradictory". He is spot on as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to burst any bubbles but at least help to manage your expectations. Don't expect to have this D stuff cracked and see lovely flat graphs each day; my glycaemic variability (erraticness or brittleness) is consistent: always plenty of peaks and troughs. However I do now have some understanding about why and feel very much less vulnerable when things go wrong.

In closing for now and while mentioning things going wrong ... this morning I took my normal basal of 8.5 units, calculated my bolus for 6.5 units (part food, part correction from my overnight high) then dosed myself with a further 6.5 basal !! Wrong pen, beautifully decorated with a gold star and multi-coloured bands to make my basal pen very different from my plain bolus pen. So now my 350 daily decisions for managing the 42 factors that are known to affect our blood glucose have just got more complicated. This morning I've taken my real bolus of 6.5 and know I've got a lot more basal insulin on board that will start playing later today and (because it is the very long lasting Tresiba) will still be playing tomorrow and Friday probably. Nobody said this would be easy! Incidentally insulin is just insulin. Our body doesn't know that bolus is supposed to be rapid or basal slow ... its just insulin, there with its keys to unlock the doors and allow glucose to move from our blood to our cells and thus provide nourishment. So how, during the next 48+ hours the excess of insulin on board will affect me is my unknown BG factor.
 
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