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Help post op

SB2015

Well-Known Member
Relationship to Diabetes
Type 1
I had an op this morning and went into it at 6.7. Came out at 7.8 very happy.
Eaten this evening but have continued to rise even four hours after the meal. Now 16.8 and still in HcL.

I know when I was in manual if I was high I needed a good 20-40% extra insulin for bolus basal and corrections. Has anyone else experienced this. Just wondering whether to come out of looping and do what I would have done before. Not happy going to bed at this level in looping mode.

Any experience welcome. I know you can’t give medical advice.
 
Thanks @Inka
Just found the revised DAFNE high BG rules.
No ketones but BG now 18.6

It suggested to:
Stay in automated mode
Change cannula and insulin
Give a correction via pen
Recheck in 2 hours.
All very logical.

I have set an alarm for 2 hours and if that hasn’t worked I will go back to manual.
It is going to be a long night. I think it is just a reaction to the op.
I feel fine apart from symptoms of high BG but it could be a response to the pain.
 
I hope it comes down @SB2015 I forgot to mention correcting with a pen. I always do that too. I had a persistent high this week and it improved after a cannula change. The cannula had been working fine that morning but suddenly ‘went’ (ie stopped working, no knocks, no damage). I hope a change of cannula and some pen corrections work for you too and you manage to get some sleep.
 
ANT operation is an assault on the human body - ie Trauma. So your adrenalin glands launch unhelpfully when you happen to have diabetes into their 'fight or flight' mode and release cortisol cos that's what they do, full stop. So - your BG increases because of that. Hey ho.

Right PITA sometimes, this ruddy diabetes lark, ain't it!
 
How you feeling today @SB2015?

Well done on checking the dafne guidelines, I find mine can be a bit slow at bringing down the stubborn hypos, worth checking the site always. I’d rather add a new pod than use a pen.
Can only sometimes tell with those if it’s come loose once it’s off and you can see / feel the site.

Hope your resting up, I was surprised how much impact my op last year had on me.
 
My plans for a weekend in London were abandoned at Midnight and I now have a very quiet weekend. A lot more sensible and feel a lot more secure being at home with OH than partying in London.

I was surprised that the guidelines were saying to use the pens, and for me there is now way of letting t(e pump know that I have done that except entering false carbs which I didn’t want to do as that impacts the algorithm in a different way. I finally got some sleep at 4:00 am and was glad not to be getting up for a 7:00 coach this morning.

Levels now in very low teens today and go them down below 10 on one occasion. I think tomorrow will be a lot better as the cortisol impact calms down (thanks @trophywench). More surgery to follow but for tha5 there are x rays involved so I shall be on VRII. That makes me very worried but the anaesthetist was excellent this time.
 
Slept for over 12 hours last night and was so pleased to get woken by an ‘alert before low’ . Finally back in range and consequently feeling so much better both physically and mentally.

Need to learn from this as further surgery to come. Perhaps next time allow some time for recovery, be prepared to use the high BG flow chart earlier rather than pondering what to do initially. I shall also mention what happened to anaesthetist and see if any changes will help with post op levels.

It will be very different next time as I shall be in VRII. That makes me panic immediately but DSN aware and I will deal with it.

Thanks for the help and support on here, as always.
 
It will be very different next time as I shall be in VRII. That makes me panic immediately but DSN aware and I will deal with it.
Do make it your business to personally ensure the VRII instructions are appropriate and correct. These are for the benefit of Ward Nursing staff, who need to have a written process to follow and who may not know much about insulin dependency.

I had an unfortunate circumstance in 2022 when my written instructions said when very low, my insulin proportion should be increased. Fortunately I was involved from the outset, since my Libre low alert sounded just as I was back on the Ward recovering from the anaesthetic. I very groggily pressed my bell, wanting the nurse to help me find my JBs. She looked at the written procedure and told me the instructions said my insulin was to be increased. I challenged this; she didn't understand the possible consequence; and after her persistence I insisted I was immediately taken off the VRII. I disconnected myself and fell asleep again. When I woke up I had an interesting conversation with a junior Dr who initially confronted me about my behaviour. I explained and suggested she look at my chart with the written instructions. The Dr looked, went silent and disappeared. Later I was able to get my chart from the end of my bed and the incorrect instructions were visible, readable still, but manually altered and corrected.

To this day I bitterly regret not having the wit to take a photograph at the time. I very much doubt that anyone in the Hospital management learnt anything from this. I learnt to really check what has been written - just in case! These days with CGM, VRII shouldn't be necessary unless there is a strong expectation that a patient will spend a very long period post op in ICU. It's a lazy solution for someone using CGM. Once the VRII alerts that a change is occurring someone still has to manually make that VRII change.
 
Slept for over 12 hours last night and was so pleased to get woken by an ‘alert before low’ . Finally back in range and consequently feeling so much better both physically and mentally.

Need to learn from this as further surgery to come. Perhaps next time allow some time for recovery, be prepared to use the high BG flow chart earlier rather than pondering what to do initially. I shall also mention what happened to anaesthetist and see if any changes will help with post op levels.

It will be very different next time as I shall be in VRII. That makes me panic immediately but DSN aware and I will deal with it.

Thanks for the help and support on here, as always.

Glad you are feeling better @SB2015 and that things have begun to settle a little. Shame you missed your weekend away, but a prudent step I think. Hope the next op goes smoothly, and recovery is speedy.

If there was one change I could make to the algorithm on the MM780G it would be to have an ‘illness’ setting that you could use to let it know that things were running higher for a known reason. I’ve only had one cold that affected my BGs since being on it, but it took the MM780 so long to figure out what was going on that the cold was pretty much done by the time it had come up to speed, then I had a few days where it was tending to overshoot before it caught up again o_O
 
I've had a couple of ops since being on HCL (Libre2 plus and Omnipod 5)

Both times I've had post op highs, I use activity mode to prevent low BG during the procedure, seems to work well. Post op BG keeps increasing, a result of the op plus activity mode (I sometimes have a post 'activity mode' high anyway)

Best I've come up with is bolus for a sandwich + correction. Then sit patiently, wait for BG to start dropping (maybe an hour or more), and 'catch' it on the way down with the sandwich. (It takes willpower if ravenous)
 
I am glad you got some sleep and are/were back in range @SB2015 .

As you know, I am not HCLing (can it be a verb?) so my experience is manually pumping.
For my last elbow surgery, I was expecting the pre-op stress to send my BG flying but, instead, I spent a few hours manually suspending my basal to fend off the hypo when I was nil-by-mouth before I went under. As a result, my post-op BG was having to deal with the lack of basal for hours (when I am using basal suspend to fend off a low, it is difficult to know when to turn it back on again so I am usually "late") as well as the stress of the surgery.
It didn't help that I was famished but waiting for my BG to get below 10 before eating and that always takes longer than I hoped, even when I rage bolus.

Diabetes is constantly keeping us on our toes even with the best technology.

VRII does not sound fun. Thankfully, I will be keeping my pump in place when they take the metal plate out of my elbow.

Good luck for your next op and your continued recovery
 
Glad you are feeling better @SB2015 and that things have begun to settle a little. Shame you missed your weekend away, but a prudent step I think. Hope the next op goes smoothly, and recovery is speedy.

If there was one change I could make to the algorithm on the MM780G it would be to have an ‘illness’ setting that you could use to let it know that things were running higher for a known reason. I’ve only had one cold that affected my BGs since being on it, but it took the MM780 so long to figure out what was going on that the cold was pretty much done by the time it had come up to speed, then I had a few days where it was tending to overshoot before it caught up again o_O
Having been in touch with my DSN I have decided that I will go into manual after the next op and use a TBR fo between 120-140%, as I would have done before looping. As you suggest Mike the algorithm can’t get its head round what is going on with the sudden change, and I had to get involved checking every two hours, so I might as well take over initially. That way I am hoping I can get my levels back in range more quickly and that this will also aid recovery. The Medtronic algorithm is mainly using the previous 72 hours of data so for the first day it has no chance and then there is the tail off once levels are back in range.

‘ Thanks’ for the info @Proud to be erratic . It is exactly tales like yours that make me very sacred of VRII. Does anyone have some good tales of VRII? I have asked for a copy of the protocols at our hospital so that I can understand what should happen, but I will be out of it whilst they are needing to follow this. (I suspect the panic is evident as I write!!!!). With each op I am more scared of this than of the actual op they are doing.
 
Well, @SB2015, my GOOD tale about VRII is that while I was having my pancreatectomy I was placed onto VRII and stayed on that for about 10 days, before being moved to MDI. It can work; well. Of course I was in a diabetic environment, within the HPB ward and being closely monitored by people who knew what should be happening. I was at that stage totally oblivious of all of this, rather more bemused by counting the various tubes radiating out of me: drips in drains out! Over 15 of them.

I think you've made a good call by asking for sight of the Hospital's protocols. I suggest no need to be scared while you are in Theatre - there will be an anaesthetist monitoring your every breath! You should get to meet that anaesthetist on your ward, before you go to Theatre and it would be worth having a conversation with him/her about the transition period post op. In the Bucks Hospital where this stupid event occurred with me, I was struck both before and after my surgery about how poor the Endocrinology advice was to the Ward or Theatre and absolutely no direct involvement they had with me.

The pre-op process was in part excellent, then really poor when we got to their requirements for my insulin preparation the night before. The excellent and senior nurse doing this had a written instruction, provided by the Hospital's Endo dep't which listed all basal in one category and telling me to stop my Tresiba on the day. I politely told the Nurse that I wouldn't do that; if the requirement was really for me to have zero insulin on board on the op day, then I should start that a couple of days before; but that made no sense and in practice it was my bolus that needed curtailing NOT my basal. This Nurse clearly understood my rationale and agreed to advise the Endo Dep't that their protocol seemed suspect. I e-mailed her after we met, confirming my perspective and formally asking her to confirm we were now in common agreement. She replied, telling me my email had been forwarded to Endo. I heard nothing more.

On the day, I showed up and was asked to confirm by signing a statement that I'd stopped my basal. I explained that I hadn't and why, the young inexperienced reception Nurse went to get advice, returned to tell me my op couldn't continue. I had copies of my email exchanges to hand, persuaded her supervisor to speak with the pre-op nurse and this detail got sorted. No stress to start my op!! Later the anaesthetist confirmed I was correct to keep my basal going, he would not deliberately want to be managing my BG with the stress from surgery etc and me with zero basal on board! That Hospital's Endo Dep't is well adrift from understanding how to manage someone like me with no panc'y.

What I didn't ask the anaesthetist was to see the post-op VRII protocol. I did tell him I'd prefer to not go onto VRII, but allowed him to convince me that it was preferable; I naively assumed it was a fully automated process, not dependent on a VRII alarm and someone manually adjusting the proportion of insulin and glucose after reading protocol instructions. I spent over 3 weeks on that ward, without speaking to anyone from Endo - yet (theoretically) every insulin medication decision was being aporoved by the Endo Dep't. In practice I had my pens and managed myself; with such a long period relatively immobile (some shuffling walks around the ward and no walking to the shops or gardening!) my TIR was the best it's ever been. Retaining my pens was initially a challenge (I sort of understand this) but I simply didn't allow the conversation to progress to a point that they made me put my pens in a locked cubpboard/locker that I didn't have the key for. We "danced" around this problem for several days until eventually I'd established a status quo; one Dispensing Nurse was very "tense" (= resentful) about my being outside her protocols.

Overall, forewarned is forearmed and pre-op conversations will go a long way to make sure you are treated as an individual and your concerns, fears, are properly managed. Good luck, @SB2015, I look forward to hearing after your op how it all went.
 
I was surprised that the guidelines were saying to use the pens, and for me there is now way of letting t(e pump know that I have done that except entering false carbs which I didn’t want to do as that impacts the algorithm in a different way. I finally got some sleep at 4:00 am and was glad not to be getting up for a 7:00 coach this morning.
Just unclip your cannula and do the bolus so you still know what insulin you have on board when you inject.
 
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